Victoria (Aust) Introduces Voluntary Assisted Dying

Tanj

Redefined comfortable middle class
Mar 31, 2017
7,682
8,316
59
Australia
✟277,286.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
This is just to get it through...
More will come later.
Notice when people speak its always
"My body, My choice, My life My decision"
My,my,my
Me,me,me.

Can a Christian ever say that?

Do they ever say anything else?

Just kidding, obviously they occasionally step away from their me me me whinge to tell other people what they shouldn't be allowed to do.

Proud to be a Victrorian on this day.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Occams Barber
Upvote 0

ThievingMagpie

Active Member
Jun 5, 2018
199
187
34
London
✟64,205.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
So don't pretend it is rational then. It isn't. It is a purely emotional decision to choose a certain experience, pain say, as trumping all other experiences or potentiality of experiences or potentiality of treating or alleviating it

Emotion isn't the antithesis of rationality. One can make an honest assessment of their prognosis, the way they feel, the pain they feel, the effect on loved ones and decide on an appropriate course of action. Because response to an emotion forms part of this doesnt mean you get to write it off as hysteria.

I welcome this, and hope to see similar measures taken in the UK in the near future.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Occams Barber
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Emotion isn't the antithesis of rationality. One can make an honest assessment of their prognosis, the way they feel, the pain they feel, the effect on loved ones and decide on an appropriate course of action. Because response to an emotion forms part of this doesnt mean you get to write it off as hysteria.

I welcome this, and hope to see similar measures taken in the UK in the near future.
You can make an assessment, yes. But that assessment is subjective, and there is no way to test its validity - Death isn't a treatment modality, it's a negation, a surrender. For the extraordinary instance of ending the organism itself, arguments subjectively thought 'good enough' is hardly sufficient. So you cannot determine the rationality of the decision, you cannot test it, and you cannot determine the proportionality of the valence applied. The argument I was responding to was an appeal to emotion, as a rejoinder after calling it a 'rational decision'. That is simply not the case in that instance.

Feel free to present a rational argument for euthanasia, I'll listen. Appeals to Emotion, unverifiable assumption of relative valence, and arguments with no method of external evaluation, cannot be deemed so by any measure.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Heavenhome

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Dec 31, 2017
3,279
5,323
65
Newstead.Australia
✟407,525.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I believe that my life is my own to do with as I wish.

In time I'd like to see the rules relaxed. Not 'much, much more', just a little more.
OB
Yes, I understand that you would have that view because as an atheist you have no belief that we were created by God.

A Christian cannot say our bodies or anything else is all ours because we belong to God. We were bought by the precious blood of Jesus our Saviour. Our lives are ever in His hands.
 
Upvote 0

Kenny'sID

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 28, 2016
18,185
7,001
69
USA
✟585,304.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
This actually sounds good to me.

Like I always say, God has his hands on the law, but whether one believes that or not, how can a loving God not allow this, when he makes acceptations to the rules often enough. IOW God uses common sense and expects us to do the same as long as we're sincere. Even if one doesn't believe in God, how can people in general not allow this? Fortunately, some will not.

The rules on this seem to be very reasonable/commonsensical.
 
Upvote 0

Sistrin

We are such stuff as dreams are made on...
Supporter
Jun 9, 2012
6,488
3,399
Location Location Location
✟197,980.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The conditions will not stop with those described in the OP. As with any policy implemented Progressives will take the right to die and turn it into a duty to die. And all out of compassion, of course.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,478
18,456
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,465.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Personally, I consider the wish to kill yourself the very definition of madness though, requiring admission or at least Psychistric evaluation and Psychological treatment.

I very much doubt every treatment was tried for the young Dutch woman who was allowed to starve to death. Here in the US they are having more success using mindfulness-based therapies and even psychedelic drugs to treat depression. Was any of that tried? Apparently not. She was just put on some conventional drugs and probably some useless talking therapy and declared a lost cause. And that is the tragedy, when societies start writing off the lives of even their youth, they have lost their souls.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tanj

Redefined comfortable middle class
Mar 31, 2017
7,682
8,316
59
Australia
✟277,286.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Also, Early Onset Alzheimer's. I've seen that up close and it's horrible.

My mother has late onset, and whilst it is pretty bad for me I'm not sure it's that bad for her, certainly doesn't fit the criteria in the law.

I had a friend die of MND a few months ago. That's something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. He was intending to go to the Netherlands but deteriorated too rapidly and couldn't make the flight. It took him 4 days in intensive care to asphyxiate to death due to a cold.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
It took him 4 days in intensive care to asphyxiate to death due to a cold.
I am sorry for your loss, but that seems highly unlikely. Motor Neuron Disease is a disease of the neurons carrying motoric function (usually but not exclusively A alpha fibres) - it's in the name. For him to asphyxiate, he should have respiratory involvement, in which case that would be what killed him if he refused intubation and ventilation or tracheostomy. Alternately he could have had atelectasis of his lungs or such, but then he probably died from a viral pneumonia, not a cold. To clear secretions he would just need physiotherapy and suctioning, which he certainly would've received in intensive care.

Regardless, this is a good example of what I am talking about. MND is exactly that kind of rare disease that we would prohibit any treatment from being developed or appropriate care being offered, thus essentially predisposing them to Euthanasia. MND is an array of diseases, that we know little of, so every person lost limits our ability to learn about that specific disease, and decreases any incentive to develop ways to cope with it. In future a new person diagnosed would be shunted toward that path, simply because effective treatments or coping strategies have not been developed further - from decreased demand and subject.

Besides, this merely amounts to anecdote and appeal to emotion - not Rational argument. To be that, we require Coherence, and perhaps Validity and Soundness. I presume you aren't in favour of 17 year olds killing themselves for PTSD or depression; so the coherence of arguing suffering falls away if we have to rely on subjectivity, validity is lacking as we can't quantify quality of life aspects in relative valences, and thus the whole is neither cogent nor sound. I certainly understand why people feel it should be an option for someone suffering from MND, but that does not make it a rational argument that it should be, nor why it should be allowed for the terminally ill in general. The reason why such measures are slippery slopes to on demand death on flimsy grounds, is precisely because the arguments they rest upon are so vague and weak - thus legal challenges keep pushing them further, and exceptions keep occuring, until we reach levels no one ever intended. Further, the frog in the pot principle applies as people become used to it, and what they would consider abhorrent, then becomes acceptable, as in the Low Countries.

Personally, I don't think not-being can ever be seen as more desirable than being on purely naturalistic grounds, nor how we can judge something so negative to trump all other experience or potentiality of experience or potential alleviation thereof. The negative aspects for the medical fraternity getting involved here are alse legion, from abuse potential to ethics to personal. While I have compassion for the sufferers, I think this a step too far, rather than comprehensive palliative regimens.
 
Upvote 0

Tanj

Redefined comfortable middle class
Mar 31, 2017
7,682
8,316
59
Australia
✟277,286.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I am sorry for your loss, but that seems highly unlikely. Motor Neuron Disease is a disease of the neurons carrying motoric function (usually but not exclusively A alpha fibres) - it's in the name. For him to asphyxiate, he should have respiratory involvement

Really, is that the case? Who would have thought??

Motor Neuron Disease Presenting With Acute Respiratory Failure: A Case Study
Respiratory symptoms in MND | MND Association

Oh well, who to believe, the experts and watching my friend die, or you. Choices, choices.

Regardless, this is a good example of what I am talking about. MND is exactly that kind of rare disease that we would prohibit any treatment from being developed or appropriate care being offered,

You have even less idea of what you are talking about here. That's not even close to how it works, and I say that as someone with 30 years experience in biomedical research.

I'll have to stop there, don't want to get banned.
 
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Really, is that the case? Who would have thought??

Motor Neuron Disease Presenting With Acute Respiratory Failure: A Case Study
Respiratory symptoms in MND | MND Association

Oh well, who to believe, the experts and watching my friend die, or you. Choices, choices.

"We report a case of a 61-year-old male patient with no past history of cardiovascular or pulmonary disease, who presented with only dyspnea, and no indication of any other symptom such as muscle weakness, atrophy, or bulbar dysfunction. Neuromuscular conduction study, including a study of the phrenic nerve, confirmed the diagnosis of MND. The patient greatly improved giving respiratory assistance at night, using a noninvasive ventilator. This case indicates that MNDs should be considered as differential diagnoses for patients showing acute respiratory failure of unknown causes."

Exactly what I said. This case study had respiratory involvement, not 'asphyxiated from a cold'. So I fail to see what your supposed point is, except for proving mine further.

You have even less idea of what you are talking about here. That's not even close to how it works, and I say that as someone with 30 years experience in biomedical research.

I'll have to stop there, don't want to get banned
Fair enough if you do not wish to respond. However, the less cases present of a rare condition, the less potential opportunity for research and the less economic incentive for treatment facilities and the like. The percentages available matter, when the incidence and prevalence are low. I am a doctor myself, so I am well aware how Medical research is conducted, thank you very much. But that hardly matters here, as the point made is a common sense one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

My dad died 1/12/2023. I'm still devastated.
Jul 1, 2007
17,258
5,042
Native Land
✟321,532.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
This is just to get it through...
More will come later.
Notice when people speak its always
"My body, My choice, My life My decision"
My,my,my
Me,me,me.

Can a Christian ever say that?
Some Christians say it all time. When they cry about taxes going to much needed services.
 
Upvote 0

now faith

Veteran
Supporter
Jul 31, 2011
7,772
1,568
florida
✟257,472.00
Faith
Word of Faith
Marital Status
Married
Then there are the special people...
I played tennis with a guy from Hungry, until He started with crazy comments.
He sincerely believes there are way to many people in the World.
He also believes somehow they need to be removed, excluding himself.
He is up over 70 years old, and tries to badger players that are in their fifties and sixties.
So He began making nasty comments toward me , I went all out and beat Him a few times badly and quit playing Him.
My reason for the story is my observation of How even seniors are becoming Narrissisist, and just as cold as any of the younger people.
The Baby Boomers are a different group altogether, all the love and peace of the sixties has turned into me and myself.
Primarily this age group is in power around the world.
People born between 1945 and 1960 hold most of the cards for our future.
Scary thought , those that were rolling in the mire naked at Woodstock are running our Nation.
 
Upvote 0

Desk trauma

Front row at the dumpster fire of the republic
Supporter
Dec 1, 2011
20,197
16,174
✟1,173,483.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0