The Virgin Mary and her savior

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tigger45

Pray like your life depends on it!
Site Supporter
Aug 24, 2012
20,728
13,157
E. Eden
✟1,270,680.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Again, why is this so difficult.. there is no interaction between those who have passed on to paradise... and us... None... nada......

That is what the problem is... if you are having two way communication..... that is troubling.
And what I’m sayin is departed Christians are still very active {mount of Transfiguration), still intermingled with us (the great cloud of witnesses) and are aware, care and pray for us (Lazarus and the rich man & with Angels pray for us in paradise). This is undeniable even to those to hold to nuda scriptura.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,549
12,099
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,178,020.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
LOL, and he believed it was this actual Monk..... talking from the other side?

OK OK strange things do happen, like this... but not regular interaction..not day to day.. like we can with Christ. And are told we are to do.
Pearls to swine. Why do I even bother.
 
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,843
795
✟521,163.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The problem with this logic (which I address to the entirety of this doctrine of Mary's alleged immaculateness) is that it would need to regress ad infinitum. If Jesus could not be born from an unclean vessel without becoming unclean, then Mary could not be born from an unclean vessel without being unclean, which would require her parents be immaculate. But her parents could not be born from unclean vessels without becoming unclean, so their parents would have to be immaculate lest they transmit uncleanness, etc. This would have to regress necessarily to Adam, so that no one has ever been unclean and therefore no one has ever sinned.

Therefore this doctrine as a whole is self-defeating unless you accept that sin is essentially a myth.
Yes, excellent. Would like to add that one step of Christ's humiliation was to become sin for us...so out with the needing to be in a pure vessel argument.
II Corinthians 5:21:
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Thir7ySev3n
Upvote 0

Not David

I'm back!
Apr 6, 2018
7,356
5,235
25
USA
✟231,310.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Yes, excellent. Would like to add that one step of Christ's humiliation was to become sin for us...so out with the needing to be in a pure vessel argument.
II Corinthians 5:21:
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Be careful, you might imply Jesus was with sin
 
Upvote 0

Lords Man

Active Member
Feb 15, 2016
164
100
75
Big Sandy Texas
✟7,578.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
A lot of people falsely assert Catholics and Orthodox believe Mary didn't need Jesus as Savior which is something neither group says.

Is there any disagreement with that statement?

Perhaps the greatest Marian lie is that she is a Mediatrix (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #969, 973). There is one God and one Mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5). This is blasphemy.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Site Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,484
62
✟570,656.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
And what I’m sayin is departed Christians are still very active {mount of Transfiguration), still intermingled with us (the great cloud of witnesses) and are aware, care and pray for us (Lazarus and the rich man & with Angels pray for us in paradise). This is undeniable even to those to hold to nuda scriptura.
First:
The mount of transfiguration... did the disciples talk to Moses or Elijah? Or, just Jesus? This was a "one off" and nobody but Jesus talked to those departed.

Second:
This is a better theme for that scripture:

In Hebrews 12:1, the Holy Spirit is emphasizing:


“You’re not alone! The grandstands of Heaven all the way up to the ‘clouds,’ the highest seats in the bleachers, are piled high with people who stood the test of time and eventually saw their faith manifested….”

There is no "care and pray for us" there. They don't even come close to mentioning an interaction between those past on and those still here.


And Third:
Abraham tells the rich man that the living have the prophets... meaning the scriptures.... If they don't listen to the scriptures.. they won't listen to someone who returned from the dead.

This is a point totally against what you are proposing... it tells that nobody from the dead is going to come and talk to you AND says that the bible is enough truth for you to know what you need to know.
 
Upvote 0

Robin Mauro

Well-Known Member
Sep 11, 2018
702
400
64
North San Juan
✟27,401.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
A lot of people falsely assert Catholics and Orthodox believe Mary didn't need Jesus as Savior which is something neither group says.

Is there any disagreement with that statement?
Don't Catholics believe Mary was without sin and go so far as it say she never had sexual relations with Joseph, even after the birth of Jesus? Which I feel is ridiculous seeing how the Bible says the marriage bed is undefiled. They also say his brothers were actually cousins to make their case.
I have known lots of Catholics who are true believers, but I disagree with this interpretation.
Yes, I do think many Catholics believe that Mary was without sin.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,425
26,866
Pacific Northwest
✟731,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Can you imagine God, placing His son in an unclean vessel?

Mary was pure. A Holy Tabernacle for the Son of God.

She was chosen from before time began.

He sent His Son to be conceived and born in an "unclean" world. And to be nailed to a cross by wicked men.

I don't think this appeal to pious sentiment works as an argument. The Incarnation inherently destroys such pious sentiments.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Athanasius377
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,425
26,866
Pacific Northwest
✟731,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Don't Catholics believe Mary was without sin and go so far as it say she never had sexual relations with Joseph, even after the birth of Jesus? Which I feel is ridiculous seeing how the Bible says the marriage bed is undefiled. They also say his brothers were actually cousins to make their case.
I have known lots of Catholics who are true believers, but I disagree with this interpretation.
Yes, I do think many Catholics believe that Mary was without sin.

This is a conflation of two different ideas:

1) Mary is immaculate
2) Mary's perpetual virginity


The Immaculate Conception of Mary:

Disclaimer: I disagree with the Catholic position, but it's important be clear about what the Catholic position is.

In Catholic theology Mary was, on account of Christ and by the grace of God, conceived and born without the stain of Original Sin. This is the "Immaculate Conception"; in Catholic theology by virtue of Christ's atoning work God, by a special gift, ensured that Mary would be a pure vessel for the Son of God. She wasn't immaculate by her own virtue or merit, but by the virtue and merit of Jesus; that is Christ's work was retroactive in freeing His mother, and granting her an immaculate conception and birth so that she could be pure in her being His mother. The rationale for this is that in order for Christ to be conceived without sin, His mother had to have been set free from Original Sin.

The Catholic position is not that Mary was, by her own virtue, immaculate; but was by virtue of her Son immaculate, and this not for herself, but in order that she could be the pure vessel through which the Son of God was conceived. The point is ultimately to argue for how Mary could be the pure habitation for God Incarnate. It's not to say that Mary didn't need a Savior, she did, she was saved by her Son; but in a special case, by a special grace of God, by virtue of Christ and what Christ accomplished Mary was able to be pure for the purpose of conceiving and giving birth to Christ.

My personal argument against this is as follows: There is no need to make Mary pure in order for her Son to be conceived without the taint of sin; if by special grace Mary can be free from the taint of Original Sin by virtue of her Son, then how much more can Christ be born without the taint of sin by virtue of Himself? It just seems largely superfluous and unnecessary.

The Perpetual Virginity of Mary:

My own opinion here is that it's honestly just not my business to know the sex life of the mother of God. Whether she remained a perpetual virgin or not is irrelevant.

Tradition says that Mary remained a virgin even after giving birth to our Lord, that she and Joseph never consummated their marriage. This may seem strange at first, but also according to tradition Joseph was pretty old and a widower, and the marriage between Joseph and Mary was largely a legal matter.

It is important to remember that marriages in the first century would have largely been arranged marriages. We aren't talking about two people falling in love, then proposing, then getting married out of romantic love (not that people didn't fall in love, it's just that this wasn't really how marriage worked back then). It's not hard to conceive that there may be a case where a marriage was arranged in which a young woman was betrothed to an older man for him to be her guardian, effectively a legal protector in a society in which women had little to no power; and in which women were by and large regarded as the property of their fathers, and then later husbands.

As such, at least according to tradition, this was largely the kind of relationship Joseph and Mary had, and so they never engaged in conjugal activity even after Mary gave birth to Jesus.

The siblings of Jesus, then, were the children of Joseph from a previous marriage. Some later ecclesiastics, such as St. Jerome, toyed around with the idea that they may have been cousins, based on some ambiguity of the Greek word for "brother" which can, in some contexts, refer to close kin in general, and not sibling specifically.

In the end it really doesn't matter, but this is the very ancient opinion of the Church; and since Scripture is entirely silent on the matter, there's no reason to have a problem with it biblically. There's insufficient evidence to argue either case, and so there should be room for both opinions in Christianity.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Tutorman

Charismatic Episcopalian
Jun 20, 2017
1,637
1,349
52
california
✟103,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Matthew 24:25:
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

That's a pretty important book you are ready to toss out. Catholics claim so many people, places and things are oh so holy, but the Word which is to be a guide to them is called by them simply: a book! Shocking!

You err, you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of His Word.







1

Never said I would toss it out. That verse is not talking about the Bible, you have given a great example of the twisting Scripture you all participate in. It is you all who really don't know Scripture properly
 
Upvote 0

Cis.jd

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2015
3,613
1,484
New York, NY
✟140,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The problem with this logic (which I address to the entirety of this doctrine of Mary's alleged immaculateness) is that it would need to regress ad infinitum. If Jesus could not be born from an unclean vessel without becoming unclean, then Mary could not be born from an unclean vessel without being unclean, which would require her parents be immaculate. But her parents could not be born from unclean vessels without becoming unclean, so their parents would have to be immaculate lest they transmit uncleanness, etc. This would have to regress necessarily to Adam, so that no one has ever been unclean and therefore no one has ever sinned.

Therefore this doctrine as a whole is self-defeating unless you accept that sin is essentially a myth.

In Catholic theology, The immaculate conception isn't for Mary, it was for God's glory. She is viewed as the new Arc of the Covenant (as interpreted in Revelations). The Arc of the Covenant didn't need an Ark for itself because it was made for God's covenant. This is the same with Mary. She was made pure because she was one assigned to hold the greatest Holy of Holies (God's Son). Her parents where not. The Immaculate conception isn't judy explain or teach that Mary had to be sinless other wise it would cary on Adam's sin to Jesus. No. It's a theological teaching about how God always had to be surrounded by purity.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

throughfiierytrial

Truth-Lover
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2014
2,843
795
✟521,163.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Never said I would toss it out. That verse is not talking about the Bible, you have given a great example of the twisting Scripture you all participate in. It is you all who really don't know Scripture properly
You must not understand the way the Bible reads? Done much Bible Study.
Won't learn much if you refer to every passage you disagree with as "twisting" .
 
Upvote 0

Tutorman

Charismatic Episcopalian
Jun 20, 2017
1,637
1,349
52
california
✟103,246.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You must not understand the way the Bible reads? Done much Bible Study.
Won't learn much if you refer to every passage you disagree with as "twisting" .

It's not the passage I don't agree with it's the evangelical twisting I disagree with as sheer heresy
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟82,877.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Tradition says that Mary remained a virgin even after giving birth to our Lord, that she and Joseph never consummated their marriage. This may seem strange at first, but also according to tradition Joseph was pretty old and a widower, and the marriage between Joseph and Mary was largely a legal matter.
-CryptoLutheran
This may be what Catholics teach, but it is not supported of the Bible. Mary was from the family of David and a virgin engaged to be married. There is no mention of Joseph having other children when they went to Bethlehem. Indeed they were married in a manner ordained by God from the beginning. In Luke 8 Jesus is told his mother and brothers wanted to see Him.

In Matthew 13 we read "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?"
So he had four brothers and a (unknown) number of sisters (plural). Obviously, these children came about through the age old method we call sex. Sex, of course, is not a sin between husband and wife. So the fact that Mary had other kids didn't impact her virtue. The fact is that she was a normal human born with a sinful nature who lived as righteous a life as sinners can live, but she was neither saint nor deity.

In the end, Jesus, as the firstborn, saw to her final days by entrusting her to John. None but the firstborn would have had such an obligation.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Robin Mauro
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,425
26,866
Pacific Northwest
✟731,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
This may be what Catholics teach, but it is not supported of the Bible. Mary was from the family of David and a virgin engaged to be married. There is no mention of Joseph having other children when they went to Bethlehem. Indeed they were married in a manner ordained by God from the beginning. In Luke 8 Jesus is told his mother and brothers wanted to see Him.

In Matthew 13 we read "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?"
So he had four brothers and a (unknown) number of sisters (plural). Obviously, these children came about through the age old method we call sex. Sex, of course, is not a sin between husband and wife. So the fact that Mary had other kids didn't impact her virtue. The fact is that she was a normal human born with a sinful nature who lived as righteous a life as sinners can live, but she was neither saint nor deity.

In the end, Jesus, as the firstborn, saw to her final days by entrusting her to John. None but the firstborn would have had such an obligation.

On the other hand one could argue: If Jesus were the elder child with younger siblings, why wouldn't the Lord have entrusted His mother to her other children? Why did Jesus entrust care of His mother to John if Mary had other children?

That the Bible doesn't mention that Joseph had children from a previous marriage doesn't mean he didn't.

The point is that the Bible is silent, so a dogmatic statement in favor of either position is not possible. The Bible says nothing one way or the other, so making our appeal to Scripture is going to involve circumstantial arguments like these.

The Bible does not provide a definitive answer one way or the other, and so speculation is about all we have. Feel free to your opinion, but don't begrudge someone else who has a different opinion. Since that is all this is: opinion.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

KWCrazy

Newbie
Apr 13, 2009
7,229
1,993
Bowling Green, KY
✟82,877.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
On the other hand one could argue: If Jesus were the elder child with younger siblings, why wouldn't the Lord have entrusted His mother to her other children? Why did Jesus entrust care of His mother to John if Mary had other children?
Jesus gave responsibility of His mother to John while He was still living. Had He not done so, one of His brothers, the next oldest, would have been responsible for her. His brothers, however, were not as yet convinced that Jesus was the son of God. Christ gave His mother to one whom He knew He could trust.
That the Bible doesn't mention that Joseph had children from a previous marriage doesn't mean he didn't.
True, but teaching things not in the Bible as truth is heresy.
There are reasons to believe that Mary had children and excuses to believe she did not. Having an opinion about things not addressed in the Bible is perfectly fine, but that opinion passed off as truth becomes a lie.

My opinions are opinions. I support what I say with Scripture, but the truth is what the Holy Spirit reveals it to be.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: JacksBratt
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Status
Not open for further replies.