Can you lose your salvation

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Part of the above quote from you ...



Paul told Timothy ...
1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy

Notice the present tense of Pau saying "to save sinners; of whom I am chief"

In the Greek the above phrase reads ...
"ἁμαρτωλοὺς σῶσαι, ὧν πρῶτός εἰμι ἐγώ·"

This leaves no doubt as the "ειμι" is used. So since by inspiration of the Holy Spirit Paul declared he was the "chief of sinners" ... how exactly does this fit into you view of "sinnlessness"?

Paul was talking about his life as a Pharisee. As we know, the Pharisees epitomize the idea of people who value law more than loyalty to God. So he was definitely right that in God's eyes he was a serious sinner. He was defending orthodoxy, and burning churches and killing apostates was very pro-law, but in hindsight, anti-God. One can explain the present tense by considering how Paul was viewed by the other Apostles, some maybe even quivering at the close proximity when fellowshipping.

Witness One:
The Holy Spirit had John write ...
2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. John

So the disciples of Jesus remembered after Jesus physically resurrected that Jesus said this would happen.

Witness Two:
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Corinthians
So the Holy Spirit inspired both John and Paul to say that the physical body is a temple; but you don't except what the Holy Spirit says.

Sure and we know that Christ and his church are inseparable. So no inconsistency there. The Land was a type of Christ, so explaining the urgency for God to get Israel into the Land. Joshua was the success story, but there remained a "rest", a teleos. Someone has to have the status to change humanity, a federal headship. Just as Adam, a person without genealogy, without origin, could act and affect all mankind, another person of equal status needed to act and undo that change.

As for 1 Corinthians 6, you may have noticed that Paul is addressing the Body of Christ, the sin was corporate, the neglect of allowing rampant carnal behaviour to exist in it.

The same idea here

1 Corinthians 3
16
Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you.

To convey your idea, Paul should have written "temples", plural.

I'm not saying that the slaying of innocent blood doesn't bring a curse on the land; I'm saying that your, and Pardes are in error.

Reformed scholars have others things wrong as well... Like predestination. And Jewish scholars have been wrong about Jesus for a very long time.

Stop trying to allegorize the Scriptures, and take them at face value .
The contamination of the land is a picturisation of the defiling of humanity by Adam. Just as the blood of bulls and goats poured on the altar showed how God was going to undo that defilement, the blood of Christ actually cleansed God's People from that defilement. Now they could continue what God has started, the perfecting of all of Creation, which waits in eager expectation of the full revelation of the sons of God.
 
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createdtoworship

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I'll tell you what, I did a somewhat detailed exegesis on the text in question. I challenge you to directly refute what I have stated.

Please don't give me an article written by someone else. You presented this great resume of all the studies you have done, and even written, but now resort to an article written by another ...

That isn't debating, that is shoving me off without a single direct answer to anything I have presented.

Furthermore, you directly stated that apostacy was spoken of in verse one; and you now have nothing to defend that claim but the works of another man.

Are you actually qualified to have the debate YOU CHALLENGED ME to, or can you only direct me to the words of another?

Under your name (gradyII) it reads, "logical debater - for better: or for worse)

I would say this qualifies for "worse".

You tell me "Because of the sheer length of the errors in these posts, I do not have time to reply"; yet you ramble on in you answers that have NOTHING to do with the text in question.

I'm sorry, but I have broken down you response, and absolutely refuted it using the Word of God.

You have two choices, Step up to the plate and actually participate in the debate YOU CHALLENGED ME TO, with YOUR OWN WORDS; or simply step down and admit you are not as qualified in this as your RESUME proclaims you to be.

Again THESE are YOUR OWN WORDS:

Post #81

If I didn't work, or have a family, or have responsibilities in life, I may have time to respond to your post. I gave an article that entirely refutes everything you said. And for other users here who want to know more about that article it's right here:

I apologize that I don't have time to refute all errors posted, but you will have to take my word that I simply don't have time. I know you worked hard on it, and that is commendable. Even if it was in error.

at this point I will repost all the verses that were unrefuted:

I can repeat verses that you don't address, and/or address wrongly as well as provide several logical reasons for apostacy in the church logically speaking. Now I would ask that since you have lots of time, that you do bullet points and adress each section. As this will cause you to truly read and ponder the material.


This is the topic that was recently brought up...


do you believe someone who has unbelief that turns them away from God is by definition (never saved?)

as in this verse:
Heb 3:12 " See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God."

if yes, you would be correct in believing what the verse says.

Then why is he warning believers not to have unbelief with turns away from God?

----------------------


The parable of the sewer makes sense if you have a belief in apostacy: Matthew 12 verse 21 and 22 talk about receiving the word with joy, but not getting rooted. They were saved, they were a living plant, yet it perished because it lacked roots. Some fell among thorns, and the weeds choked them. Meaning that they cared more about the world than about God and left the faith. verses 8, 23. In contrast the true convert bears fruit, some sixty, some 100 fold.


The parable of the sewer talks about gospel seeds falling on ground:


“Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth; and they immediately sprang up because they had no depth of earth.

Mat 13:6


“But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.

Mat 13:7


“And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up and choked them.

Mat 13:8


“But others fell on good ground and yielded a crop: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Mat 13:9


“He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”


Mat 13:18

--------------

and part three:

When we become saved, we desire to be holy, that is all that verse is saying in 1 john 3:9. The way I know that it's not talking about free will, is that we still sin, even though it says we won't sin. Do you sin? Do you look with lust at another woman? Do you see a picture of victoria secret, when going through the mall, and stare a little too long? Don't worry I am not judging. I am just saying that we still sin, even though the verse says we won't. So it's not talking about free will. It's talking about sanctification which is a cooperation where we slowly give our will up for His will in our lives. We never fully give it up, but this is a weakness we have. If we could fully give up our free will, we would have no sin, or flesh. But we do have a sinful flesh still. So in conclusion it helps to know the greek there, it is I believe talking about "present continual sin." Something that we do regularly, that we have not repented of. inappropriate contentography is a great one to enter here. 80 percent of christian males are addicted to inappropriate content. Yet that verse says we will not continue in sin. So why are we continuing in sin? I believe that someone addicted to inappropriate content, does it, repents of it, does it again, repents of it. They are not continuing in it, because they are repenting all the while. They don't have victory over the sin, but they are not continually sinning. Now if ever a person starts to shrug off the shame of that sin, and decides to stop repenting of it, then there is a red flag. That sin gains a foothold. And as the Bible says, a little leaven leavens the whole loaf. That small singular sin grows and grows in the heart. Slowly it consumes the entire marriage, and a divorce is filed. Then the person still does not repent, and this issue plagues the next marriage. and a third and a fourth, all because the singular sin. That sin has caused death. Now also sin can deceive, say that sin becomes so fun and alluring that we no longer are ashamed of it, but we start to embrace and celebrate it. Jesus becomes a bitter topic to us. Who does that Jesus think He is to forbid such extasy? He must not want me to have fun, and by the way the Bible has a lot of contradiction anyway. I am not sure I believe in Jesus anymore. I have forfeited my salvation and the love of my life, all for a fantasy woman I can never have. This is the deception that sin can have in our lives. That is why we must repent of all known sin, and never give them a foot hold. And even pray to God that He reveal sin in our lives. God gave us the perfect prayer "deliver us not into temptation." Because God knew that victory was available. But we must ask for it.

------------


I had the hardest time in the past with the logistics of apostacy. I believed OSAS. Once saved always saved. Until someone gave me a message by Jon courson on Hebrews 6. In 1997 I listened to it. I dove into the Greek all night. He was correct. There was nothing in the Greek that could save my view of OSAS. I was forever changed. See I got saved in a Calvinistic church and that is why I believed OSAS, not because of the Bible. See article below, this is a congressional candidate that says he is a pedophile. Now if this guy was saved at your church, led to Christ by you, so you knew it was genuine. Repented of sex outside of marriage when he was saved. Prayed regularly and evangelized for over ten years Converting sinners. Did a small group bible study. Later had a family, and became a pastor of a non denomination. But still had a problem with kiddy inappropriate content. This small sin, leavened the whole loaf. He llost his marriage and his pastoriate, he molested his kids, the judge gave custody to the wife so he could never see his kids. He started a website, "pedophiles who believe in Jesus." He started a new church in san franscisco of pedophiles in castro district, he wrote a book to promote christian pedophilia. You would assume he was never saved because of your theological bias, because no christian would do such a thing. Yet it happens every day. An evangelist that travelled with Billy Graham rejected the faith after decades of being saved. Anyway back to the other guy..... But "things that accompany salvation" were in his life. He sprouted and brought many into the kingdom. Hundreds of genuine repentant converts. Yet he had a small addictive sin that leavened the whole loaf. He was addicted to child inappropriate contentography, and rather than dealing with it, getting counseling and accountability partners he decided to open a church of christian pedophiles. Now i know you would normally believe he was never save but because you led him to christ, and seen him evangelize for ten years, you knew he understood and accepted Jesus and the gospel fully. But sin leavened the whole loaf. It was not that his sin was unforgivable l, it was that he no longer was ashamed of his sin, became proud of it, taught it publically. That one sin caused him to doubt his faith and the accuracy of the bible. Why would Jesus forbid him from loving a child in this way? He starts to hate Jesus, and loathe christianity, again all because of one sin. Note the themes doubting drifting, departing, all critical subsection headings of hebrews chapters 1-5 leading up to apostacy of hebrews chapter 6.That is a sign of an unregenerate. Here is the article. This story is not far fetched: Congressional Candidate In Virginia Admits He’s A Pedophile


-----------------


Ok so here you have catholic priests raping children. Ok, I am not saying they are apostates, as there may be some type of bondage to sin here, and addiction of sort. But if there is no shame, and if the pope says that it is ok, and good, then you have a problem. I didn't read the whole article, but I presume they are saying if a priest has a problem that they can get help and they don't lose their job right away. I would question that ethic personally, I would think that they should not be around children at all. In california if you are a predator, you have it on your record and you are actually on a sexual predator map in the city. You cannot get a job around children, and I don't think you can live a quarter mile from any parks or schools. and I agree with all of that stuff. So I am a bit saddened over the pope's view of this. Why should the unsaved be protecting our kids more than the church?


U.N. Report: Vatican Policies Allowed Priests To Rape Children
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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I'm saying that your, and Pardes are in error.

Reformed scholars have others things wrong as well... Like predestination. And Jewish scholars have been wrong about Jesus for a very long time.

Stop trying to allegorize the Scriptures, and take them at face value.

I examined Pardes because of a conversation had with a Hebrew roots adherent. While I can see some truth in the "layer of meaning" concept, I didn’t like Pardes. I think taking in the Word in whole letters and living with it is the only way to have it "unfold" in a way that doesn’t warp the text but provides maturity in it.
 
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Dr. Jack

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Paul was talking about his life as a Pharisee. As we know, the Pharisees epitomize the idea of people who value law more than loyalty to God. So he was definitely right that in God's eyes he was a serious sinner. He was defending orthodoxy, and burning churches and killing apostates was very pro-law, but in hindsight, anti-God. One can explain the present tense by considering how Paul was viewed by the other Apostles, some maybe even quivering at the close proximity when fellowshipping.



Sure and we know that Christ and his church are inseparable. So no inconsistency there. The Land was a type of Christ, so explaining the urgency for God to get Israel into the Land. Joshua was the success story, but there remained a "rest", a teleos. Someone has to have the status to change humanity, a federal headship. Just as Adam, a person without genealogy, without origin, could act and affect all mankind, another person of equal status needed to act and undo that change.

As for 1 Corinthians 6, you may have noticed that Paul is addressing the Body of Christ, the sin was corporate, the neglect of allowing rampant carnal behaviour to exist in it.

The same idea here

1 Corinthians 3
16
Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you.

To convey your idea, Paul should have written "temples", plural.


The contamination of the land is a picturisation of the defiling of humanity by Adam. Just as the blood of bulls and goats poured on the altar showed how God was going to undo that defilement, the blood of Christ actually cleansed God's People from that defilement. Now they could continue what God has started, the perfecting of all of Creation, which waits in eager expectation of the full revelation of the sons of God.
No, the grammar of both the Greek and English say Paul was saying, "I am NOW the chief of sinners".

Here's the point ...

If I must DO a list of things AFTER I get saved TO REALLY BE SAVED or STAY saved, then I am working to STAY saved.

Look, if you are so shallow in your Bible knowledge that you don't even know things covered in Basic Doctrines 101, you just keep believing what you want ... I'll see you at the judgment.
 
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createdtoworship

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I was laughing at this cartoon thinking of calvinism:

calvinism.png
 
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Wordkeeper

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No, the grammar of both the Greek and English say Paul was saying, "I am NOW the chief of sinners".

Here's the point ...

If I must DO a list of things AFTER I get saved TO REALLY BE SAVED or STAY saved, then I am working to STAY saved.

Look, if you are so shallow in your Bible knowledge that you don't even know things covered in Basic Doctrines 101, you just keep believing what you want ... I'll see you at the judgment.

Another option:

Paul: Chief of Sinners? – doctrine.org
by Don Samdahl

Quote
Paul the First

Saul of Tarsus had nothing to commend himself to God. He was a religious fanatic. To arrest, persecute, torture, and kill Jews who believed Jesus was the promised Messiah consumed him. From a perspective of divine justice, he deserved death. But God did not kill him; He saved him. And in saving him God commissioned him to be “the apostle to the Gentiles” (Romans 11.13) to preach the “gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20.24; 1 Corinthians 15.1-4) in which one is saved by faith alone apart from the Law of Moses. In addition to revealing this gospel by faith alone, God revealed several other doctrines to Paul He had kept hidden. Paul called these doctrines “secrets” (μυστήριον).

Paul’s salvation and the revelations he received from the risen Lord were what Paul had reference to when he spoke of himself as πρῶτος “first.” Paul was the “first of sinners” in the sense that God saved him to inaugurate a whole new program. As the “first,” Paul was God’s prototype. To Paul, God revealed the “gospel of the grace of God” in which one is saved by faith alone–simply by believing that Christ died for one’s sins and rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15.1-4). This gospel was entirely different from the “gospel of the kingdom” inaugurated by John the Baptist and Jesus (cf. Matthew 3.1-2, 4.17, 9.35). Consider the following: how was Peter saved? Was it by believing Christ died for his sins and rose from the dead? No, Peter was saved by believing Jesus was the promised Messiah (Matthew 16.16-17). Peter knew nothing of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Luke 18.31-34; John 20.8-9) with respect to its salvific significance. Martha was saved the same way, believing Jesus was the promised Messiah (John 11.25-27). How is one saved today? Is it by believing Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God? No, one is saved today by believing Paul’s gospel (1 Corinthians 15.1-4).3
 
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Dr. Jack

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Another option:

Paul: Chief of Sinners? – doctrine.org
by Don Samdahl

Quote
Paul the First

Saul of Tarsus had nothing to commend himself to God. He was a religious fanatic. To arrest, persecute, torture, and kill Jews who believed Jesus was the promised Messiah consumed him. From a perspective of divine justice, he deserved death. But God did not kill him; He saved him. And in saving him God commissioned him to be “the apostle to the Gentiles” (Romans 11.13) to preach the “gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20.24; 1 Corinthians 15.1-4) in which one is saved by faith alone apart from the Law of Moses. In addition to revealing this gospel by faith alone, God revealed several other doctrines to Paul He had kept hidden. Paul called these doctrines “secrets” (μυστήριον).

Paul’s salvation and the revelations he received from the risen Lord were what Paul had reference to when he spoke of himself as πρῶτος “first.” Paul was the “first of sinners” in the sense that God saved him to inaugurate a whole new program. As the “first,” Paul was God’s prototype. To Paul, God revealed the “gospel of the grace of God” in which one is saved by faith alone–simply by believing that Christ died for one’s sins and rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15.1-4). This gospel was entirely different from the “gospel of the kingdom” inaugurated by John the Baptist and Jesus (cf. Matthew 3.1-2, 4.17, 9.35). Consider the following: how was Peter saved? Was it by believing Christ died for his sins and rose from the dead? No, Peter was saved by believing Jesus was the promised Messiah (Matthew 16.16-17). Peter knew nothing of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Luke 18.31-34; John 20.8-9) with respect to its salvific significance. Martha was saved the same way, believing Jesus was the promised Messiah (John 11.25-27). How is one saved today? Is it by believing Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God? No, one is saved today by believing Paul’s gospel (1 Corinthians 15.1-4).3
Another option: ... Really?

10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Acts

God has only had one plan of salvation ...

... by grace, through faith.

Why must you constantly refer to every commentator that allegorizes every Scripture in order to avoid what the Scripture says at face value?
 
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Wordkeeper

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Another option: ... Really?

10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Acts

God has only had one plan of salvation ...

... by grace, through faith.

Why must you constantly refer to every commentator that allegorizes every Scripture in order to avoid what the Scripture says at face value?
That was not allegory. It is a literal view based on a grammatical historical hermeneutics, which you trust.

BTW, do you seriously believe Paul literally meant what he said, when he said he was the worst of sinners??
 
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createdtoworship

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No, the grammar of both the Greek and English say Paul was saying, "I am NOW the chief of sinners".

Here's the point ...

If I must DO a list of things AFTER I get saved TO REALLY BE SAVED or STAY saved, then I am working to STAY saved.

Look, if you are so shallow in your Bible knowledge that you don't even know things covered in Basic Doctrines 101, you just keep believing what you want ... I'll see you at the judgment.

Another option:

Paul: Chief of Sinners? – doctrine.org
by Don Samdahl

Quote
Paul the First

Saul of Tarsus had nothing to commend himself to God. He was a religious fanatic. To arrest, persecute, torture, and kill Jews who believed Jesus was the promised Messiah consumed him. From a perspective of divine justice, he deserved death. But God did not kill him; He saved him. And in saving him God commissioned him to be “the apostle to the Gentiles” (Romans 11.13) to preach the “gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20.24; 1 Corinthians 15.1-4) in which one is saved by faith alone apart from the Law of Moses. In addition to revealing this gospel by faith alone, God revealed several other doctrines to Paul He had kept hidden. Paul called these doctrines “secrets” (μυστήριον).

Paul’s salvation and the revelations he received from the risen Lord were what Paul had reference to when he spoke of himself as πρῶτος “first.” Paul was the “first of sinners” in the sense that God saved him to inaugurate a whole new program. As the “first,” Paul was God’s prototype. To Paul, God revealed the “gospel of the grace of God” in which one is saved by faith alone–simply by believing that Christ died for one’s sins and rose from the dead (1 Corinthians 15.1-4). This gospel was entirely different from the “gospel of the kingdom” inaugurated by John the Baptist and Jesus (cf. Matthew 3.1-2, 4.17, 9.35). Consider the following: how was Peter saved? Was it by believing Christ died for his sins and rose from the dead? No, Peter was saved by believing Jesus was the promised Messiah (Matthew 16.16-17). Peter knew nothing of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Luke 18.31-34; John 20.8-9) with respect to its salvific significance. Martha was saved the same way, believing Jesus was the promised Messiah (John 11.25-27). How is one saved today? Is it by believing Jesus is the Messiah the Son of God? No, one is saved today by believing Paul’s gospel (1 Corinthians 15.1-4).3

we are not saved by performance and we are not unsaved by performance. That would be works. Having or not having faith, is not a work. And it is on this level that apostacy happens, so it is impossible to compare works salvation with the apostacy of the Bible. However as it happened with balaam in genesis, you cannot be cursed from the outside. But sin can cause a curse from the inside. What I mean is that sin can cause us to doubt our theology, by means of condoning our sinful addictions. What I mean is that in order to allow our sin to no longer be sinful, we may lose faith just because we love our sin. This is what it talks about in hebrews.
 
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Wordkeeper

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we are not saved by performance and we are not unsaved by performance. That would be works. Having or not having faith, is not a work. And it is on this level that apostacy happens, so it is impossible to compare works salvation with the apostacy of the Bible. However as it happened with balaam in genesis, you cannot be cursed from the outside. But sin can cause a curse from the inside. What I mean is that sin can cause us to doubt our theology, by means of condoning our sinful addictions. What I mean is that in order to allow our sin to no longer be sinful, we may lose faith just because we love our sin. This is what it talks about in hebrews.
The Old Covenant could contribute to the justification of a person, but only if it was followed perfectly. Since no one could could follow the Law perfectly, no one was justified by Law. That is why Paul said no one was righteous, not even the Jews, because the contribution of Law towards justification was zero, because of the weakness of the flesh (ergon nomou means contribution of the Law).
 
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Dr. Jack

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we are not saved by performance and we are not unsaved by performance. That would be works. Having or not having faith, is not a work. And it is on this level that apostacy happens, so it is impossible to compare works salvation with the apostacy of the Bible. However as it happened with balaam in genesis, you cannot be cursed from the outside. But sin can cause a curse from the inside. What I mean is that sin can cause us to doubt our theology, by means of condoning our sinful addictions. What I mean is that in order to allow our sin to no longer be sinful, we may lose faith just because we love our sin. This is what it talks about in hebrews.
Where does the Scripture tell us ...
1) Exactly what will cause us to no longer have salvation?
2) Exactly what extent of the above is necessary for salvation?

3) As per simply walking away ... Could you please supply the Scripture that specifically addresses this?
 
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createdtoworship

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The Old Covenant could contribute to the justification of a person, but only if it was followed perfectly. Since no one could could follow the Law perfectly, no one was justified by Law. That is why Paul said no one was righteous, not even the Jews, because the contribution of Law towards justification was zero, because of the weakness of the flesh (ergon nomou means contribution of the Law).
this post commits the fallacy of non sequitur. Basically it does not follow what was said. I proved my position was not a position of works, as faith is not works. If it was works, it would no longer be faith, according to the Bible. Let me put it this way, if losing faith is a work, then obtaining faith would be a work even moreso. So in condemning my position as salvation by works, you condemn your own version of the Gospel. Much more accurately a works based salvation according to the Bible is a return to judaism, as a hebrew christian. We are not returning to judaism in this case. Works based salvation is also following the law in order to be saved. This too, is not what we are proclaiming. We are saying that if you sin willfully and consistently, in the same manner of sin, that this sin can in affect decieve you as you try to justify it. See we all have a fight mechanism inside, to avoid too much grief. when we are addicted to the same sin over a period of years, lets say. Our grieving mechanism gets damaged. Soon we start to hate, not the sin, but the grief over it. So we start to move our frustration at the source of the grief, which is the law of God. So if there is no law, there is no sin. And soon we start to doubt the legitimacy of the law of God. I literally said this exact thing to an athiest, and He basically agreed that that was why He rejected Christianity, while being raised in the church.
 
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this post commits the fallacy of non sequitur. Basically it does not follow what was said. I proved my position was not a position of works, as faith is not works. If it was works, it would no longer be faith, according to the Bible. Let me put it this way, if losing faith is a work, then obtaining faith would be a work even moreso. So in condemning my position as salvation by works, you condemn your own version of the Gospel. Much more accurately a works based salvation according to the Bible is a return to judaism, as a hebrew christian. We are not returning to judaism in this case. Works based salvation is also following the law in order to be saved. This too, is not what we are proclaiming. We are saying that if you sin willfully and consistently, in the same manner of sin, that this sin can in affect decieve you as you try to justify it. See we all have a fight mechanism inside, to avoid too much grief. when we are addicted to the same sin over a period of years, lets say. Our grieving mechanism gets damaged. Soon we start to hate, not the sin, but the grief over it. So we start to move our frustration at the source of the grief, which is the law of God. So if there is no law, there is no sin. And soon we start to doubt the legitimacy of the law of God. I literally said this exact thing to an athiest, and He basically agreed that that was why He rejected Christianity, while being raised in the church.
"Works" does not always means Judaism. This was written to the Gentiles, and they had been trying to boast of "works", for which Paul rebukes them :

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9not by works, so that no one can boast.
 
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BNR32FAN

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They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

“and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.”
‭‭REVELATION‬ ‭22:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”
‭‭ROMANS‬ ‭11:17-22‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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"Works" does not always means Judaism. This was written to the Gentiles, and they had been trying to boast of "works", for which Paul rebukes them :

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Later in the same epistle Paul says to these very same children of God

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Wordkeeper

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Later in the same epistle Paul says to these very same children of God

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬
No one said good works does not count. Good works are part of being loyal to God. Good works can not contribute to being justified, accepted into God's family if they are used as contractual terms, because to meet those contractual terms is impossible (!). However, loyalty can be just "belief".

In the Ancient Near East, both in the OT and NT times, a vassal could align himself with a suzerain lord. The Lord was so powerful that there was nothing you could give him, he was so rich. However, acts of loyalty could find you favor in his sight, grace, and you would be accepted into his circle, and receive "free gifts" . You could never make him obligated to you, never boast that you made him rich or great .

Pilate actually got his governor's post in Palestine through grace, charis...
 
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BNR32FAN

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Eternal life is eternal life.
Everlasting means everlasting.

It's either everlasting OR God is lieing. Which one do you want? We know God cannot lie. How many times does the bible have to say that salvation is by grace..GRACE...through FAITH. It even gives an example of how Abraham was saved...not by works, but by faith.

If you have to forfeit, that means it's works based!

Man is made in the image of God: flesh, spirit and soul. Each of us have spirit. When we believe on Jesus, our spirit is reborn and the spirit cannot sin. The flesh is NOT reborn and continues to sin. That is why the bible says to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh...it's a constant battle.

When Jesus comes the second time, he will give us new bodies that are incorruptible.

The sins you do in this life time are punished by God on earth but you will never go to hell.

Paul said Abraham was justified (counted as righteous by God) by his faith. Just because someone has been declared righteous doesn’t mean they can’t later be undeclared as being righteous.

You quoted Ephesians 2 but look what Paul said in the same epistle to the very same children of God in chapter 5

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭EPHESIANS‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Salvation is not works based. No one can work for atonement of sin or earn salvation. That still doesn’t mean that it’s not a requirement for salvation. Just because Jesus requires us to bear fruit and obey his commandments doesn’t mean it was to earn salvation.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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createdtoworship

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"Works" does not always means Judaism. This was written to the Gentiles, and they had been trying to boast of "works", for which Paul rebukes them :

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9not by works, so that no one can boast.
yes in hebrews it was concerning judaism. But not just that. It was talking about any works righteousness whereby we think we can earn heaven. But like I said no one is saying that you can sin salvation away. This is an argument from silence. Losing ones faith is a deliberate act. But it is not a work.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No one said good works does not count. Good works are part of being loyal to God. Good works can not contribute to being justified, accepted into God's family if they are used as contractual terms, because to meet those contractual terms is impossible. However, loyalty can be just "belief".

In the Ancient Near East, both in the OT and NT times, a vassal could align himself with a suzerain lord. The Lord was so powerful that there was nothing you could give him, he was so rich. However, acts of loyalty could find you favor in his sight, grace, and you would be accepted into his circle, and receive "free gifts" . You could never make him obligated to you, never boast that you made him rich or great .

Pilate actually got his governor's post in Palestine through grace...

I agree, some people misunderstand James 2:21 the Greek word translated to “justified” not only mean to render or be counted as righteous but also to be evinced or shown as being righteous. James is talking about being shown as righteous not being made or counted as being righteous. Nevertheless works are still required to receive salvation according to John 15:1-10.
 
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createdtoworship

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I agree, some people misunderstand James 2:21 the Greek word translated to “justified” not only mean to render or be counted as righteous but also to be evinced or shown as being righteous. James is talking about being shown as righteous not being made or counted as being righteous. Nevertheless works are still required to receive salvation according to John 15:1-10.

works are not required for salvation. Otherwise faith is no longer faith. However repentance is required, but repentance is not works. Say for example that you were going against God, someone told you the gospel, and you started going toward God, that is what repentance means, it does not mean you are perfect or that you need to follow the law of moses, it means that you are giving God your life. And you are making Him savior and Lord. Intellectual assent is not faith. Faith is a trust that God can save you by the gift of salvation in Christ Jesus. Doing works for salvation is not trusting in Jesus work on the Cross. James does talk about justification before man. But it is also talking about fruit. Say for example you see a heathen living a life of sin, hiring prostititutes, engaging in homosexual sex, etc, there is no fruit there. That person has no works, and thus is not saved. But that is only in the negative. Not having fruit can mean you are not saved, but having fruit does not save. That is what I mean by it's only in the negative.
 
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