Calvinists do not really affirm "the purpose of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever"

Hammster · Jun 19, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Yes, God will have favor and save those that have an obedient belief and not those that unbelieve. This is the basis of Romans 9:15 as to why God has mercy upon some and not others.

Then He shows favoritism. The passages you quote mainly have to do with the Jews thinking they were favored for being Jews (if context is to be taken into consideration).

So you really need to stop with the notion that He doesn’t show favoritism.

Rubiks · Jun 19, 2019

com7fy8 said:
First, I am not trying to speak for what a Calvinist might understand about this.

But what I see is that God did create man so man would glorify God and enjoy God for all eternity.

However > man fell from fulfilling this purpose which God did have for all people.

So, in case a Calvinist says what you say Calvinists say > I would say that can be correct, depending on what the Calvinist means . . . by what you say he or she says.

And, of course, even if ones do not glorify and enjoy God, God still is able to glorify Himself by means of how he uses people who refuse Him. I would consider that evil people themselves do not glorify God, but God uses them for His glory, somehow > God will even bring about His all-loving results, from what evil people do > for example, evil people tortured and murdered Jesus, on the cross; yet, look at how God has used this to His glory.

But glorifying God while also enjoying Him for all eternity is for the elect, yes.

But . . . another thing > even though God chose the elect, we started as "children of wrath, just as the others," our Apostle Paul does say in Ephesians 2:3. So, there is no glory to us, that we have chosen Jesus >

"But God be thanked, that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

If the fall of man was a freak accident, I suppose Calvinism can affirm the quote in the title. Although, I don't think that seems to fit with Calvinism's very hands-on approach to God's sovereignty.

TheSeabass · Jun 19, 2019

Hammster said:
Then He shows favoritism. The passages you quote mainly have to do with the Jews thinking they were favored for being Jews (if context is to be taken into consideration).

So you really need to stop with the notion that He doesn’t show favoritism.

Peter and Paul are saying God Himself does not solely unconditionally determines which individual men will or will not be saved for God leaves it up to each man to choose his own eternal abode so there is no partiality/favoritism on God's part as to where a man ends up in eternity.

Yet Calvinism does have God choosing for men what their eternal abode will be making God to be partial/show favoritism as to where a man will be in eternity.

There is a night and day difference between what Paul and Peter say and what Calvinism claims

Hammster · Jun 19, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Peter and Paul are saying God Himself does not solely unconditionally determines which individual men will or will not be saved for God leaves it up to each man to choose his own eternal abode so there is no partiality/favoritism on God's part as to where a man ends up in eternity.

Yet Calvinism does have God choosing for men what their eternal abode will be making God to be partial/show favoritism as to where a man will be in eternity.

There is a night and day difference between what Paul and Peter say and what Calvinism claims

That’s not what they are saying.

-57 · Jun 19, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

God does not show partiality, favoritism for one individual over another when it comes to salvation. Salvation is equal for any and all who fear God and work righteousness will be accepted with God. Yet if God alone solely chooses that only certain individuals can fear God and work righteousness then GOd shows partiality to those individuals over others.

Romans 2:6-11
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

God equally and impartially judges each man according to the type of deeds that man chose to do, whether righteous or unrighteous deeds. It would be partial and favoritism if God determined for certain individuals they do righteous deeds and another unrighteous deeds.

Calvinism HAS God showing partiality, favoritism.

Your concept contradicts this:
Romans 9: 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy.

-57 · Jun 19, 2019

TheSeabass said:
God does not owe it to man that man hears the gospel, but God has chosen to save men through preaching the gospel, ( 1 Corinthians 1:21; Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16). Are you calling God's choice in how men are to be saved 'happenstance'?

I'm calling your Armenian view as happenstance.

-57 · Jun 19, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Peter and Paul are saying God Himself does not solely unconditionally determines which individual men will or will not be saved for God leaves it up to each man to choose his own eternal abode so there is no partiality/favoritism on God's part as to where a man ends up in eternity.

Yet Calvinism does have God choosing for men what their eternal abode will be making God to be partial/show favoritism as to where a man will be in eternity.

There is a night and day difference between what Paul and Peter say and what Calvinism claims

All people deserve hell. God chooses to have mercy and compassion on some.

-57 · Jun 19, 2019

Hammster said:
Then He shows favoritism. The passages you quote mainly have to do with the Jews thinking they were favored for being Jews (if context is to be taken into consideration).

So you really need to stop with the notion that He doesn’t show favoritism.

TheSeabass uses the "respector of men" verse willy nilly. I don't have time today but maybe later I'll get into the verse.

TheSeabass · Jun 19, 2019

Hammster said:
That’s not what they are saying.

Not in those exact words, but it depends on who is doing the choosing....God choosing for man or man choosing his own eternal fate.

TheSeabass · Jun 19, 2019

-57 said:
Your concept contradicts this:
Romans 9: 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

God showed His mercy to man by sending Christ to die on the cross, God did not bring this plan of salvation thru Christ to man based an any "human will or exertion".

But this plan of salvation that came from God by His grace does require man's "willing and running" for man to be saved:
John 7:17
Revelation 22:17
1 Corinthians 9:24
Hebrews 12:1

TheSeabass · Jun 19, 2019

-57 said:
TheSeabass uses the "respector of men" verse willy nilly. I don't have time today but maybe later I'll get into the verse.

Bible - God leaves it up to each man to choose his own eternal abode - no respect of persons

Calvinism - God choosing for men what their eternal abode will be - respect of persons

TheSeabass · Jun 19, 2019

-57 said:
I'm calling your Armenian view as happenstance.

My proof came from Bible verses not from any Armenian. God is not a Calvinist.

TheSeabass · Jun 19, 2019

-57 said:
All people deserve hell. God chooses to have mercy and compassion on some.

What is the basis of God's choice to have mercy on some?

Hammster · Jun 19, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Not in those exact words, but it depends on who is doing the choosing....God choosing for man or man choosing his own eternal fate.

Again, the references have to do with the Jews thinking that they were “in” because of being Jews. In other words, being God’s chosen people had nothing to do with being a Jew by birth. Paul later clarified further in the beginning of Romans 9.

TheSeabass · Jun 19, 2019

Hammster said:
Again, the references have to do with the Jews thinking that they were “in” because of being Jews. In other words, being God’s chosen people had nothing to do with being a Jew by birth. Paul later clarified further in the beginning of Romans 9.

I understand what the reference is to.

The issue I am raising is who is doing the choosing as to where each man will be in eternity: God or man?

If God; then He would be showing partiality. If man; then no partiality.

Hammster · Jun 19, 2019

TheSeabass said:
I understand what the reference is to.

The issue I am raising is who is doing the choosing as to where each man will be in eternity: God or man?

If God; then He would be showing partiality. If man; then no partiality.

You already agreed that God shows partiality.

The Righterzpen · Jun 19, 2019

TheSeabass said:
I understand what the reference is to.

The issue I am raising is who is doing the choosing as to where each man will be in eternity: God or man?

If God; then He would be showing partiality. If man; then no partiality.

What would God choose "partiality" upon, if He has already determined that none are worthy?

imMD · Jun 19, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
That's a broader problem with orthodox Christianity, actually- the inherent egoism of it. We are supposed to be happy all eternity while there is a pit of suffering that still exists. It's called by theologians "the Problem of Hell".

Hi FD76,

I think this viewpoint typifies worldly thinking, no offense! If we consider that humanity is dead in sin, and the redeemed are alive in Christ, then the dead remain dead, and the alive remain alive.

If we apply what Peter said, that "he who has suffered has ceased from sin", it may be that the forever torment of the Lake of Fire will be sufficient to prevent even the ungodly from further sin. And so there will be an end to sin.

Much love!
Mark

redleghunter · Jun 19, 2019

Rubiks said:
In case some wise guy wants to argue that the statement is technically correct because "glorifying God" is was intended for all people (which would include both accepting and rejecting him, whereas enjoying him would be intended for only the elect; A statement like "the purpose of man is to enjoy God or reject him forever" would be much more appropriate. That is obviously not how it was originally intended to be understood.

1. state the portion of the WCF.

2. What is quoted above is a false dichotomy.

redleghunter · Jun 19, 2019

Michael Collum said:
Yeah, if it's the purpose of man to glorify God, how does an eternal bonfire where they're in too much pain to even speak glorify Him?

God is Holy, Holy, Holy and so is His Law. That may connect some of the dots.

Calvinists do not really affirm "the purpose of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever"

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