Calvinists do not really affirm "the purpose of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever"

TheSeabass said:

One must hear the gospel to have faith (Romans 10:17).

Click to expand...

Of course....then make this free-will decision based upon what? You would say life experience. Happenstance.

-57 said:

Of course....then make this free-will decision based upon what? You would say life experience. Happenstance.

Click to expand...

GOd owes it to man that every man hear the gospel and be saved?

Rubiks said:

I am just pointing out that "God predestines some to salvation and some to damnation for his glory" is incompatible with "God's purpose for humanity is to enjoy him forever."

Click to expand...

Calvinists tend to have a logic that utilizes math appropriate for infinity, as God, perfection, eternity and the like are all infinite. Relative to infinity, all finite things are infinitely negligible, which is to say that things that only last a few years don't exist at all over the course of eternity.

After all of the people in the universe (which will not include Hell) have been living for the glory of God for trillions of years, the fact that there once were people in the world who rejected him for a short time will be trivial and most likely forgotten. Humanity, all of it, for all time, will have been made to glorify and enjoy God.

TheSeabass said:

One must hear the gospel to have faith (Romans 10:17). God has given Christians the duty of the great commission to take the gospel to the lost, and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:15-16). Those that do hear, believe and are baptized make up the chosen of God ie Christians. God is not a respecter of persons and unconditionally, capriciously chooses winners and losers against the will of men. Calvinism's idea of election is completely different from the Bible's teaching on election.

Click to expand...

Seabass yes God did give us the great commission to preach the gospel unto the ends of the earth. But that did take quite some time : ) But not to worry God was busy saving those who belonged to him long before the missionaries arrived. You can call the great commission another great adventure with God. He does use his people in many wonderful different ways to proclaim his glory. One must hear the gospel to have faith? really. It is only God that gives true faith to believe the gospel anyway. Of course one could have a hundred drunks singing amazing grace right now if you like along with all the grunts and groans that do come with such happy drunks, they may even sing that they have been saved. It’s a rather common past time you know. : ) But really means nothing if God hasn’t given them the faith to believe I really don’t know why your do down on Calvin. He merely stated what the bible says. And that is that God chooses. As to the winners and losers. You say God is no respecter of persons. That’s right. But still he chooses who the winners and losers shall be.

TheSeabass said:

GOd owes it to man that every man hear the gospel and be saved?

Click to expand...

Chapter and verse please.

If a tree brings glory to God by being a tree, how is man different?

Answer me this: “Can man think and/or do stuff that does not bring glory to God?”

Some on this thread seem to be saying “No”, man cannot keep from bringing glory to God?

Can you bring dishonor to God and at the same time bring glory to God?

Psalms 106: 19 They made a calf in Horeb and worshiped a molten image. 20 They exchanged the glory of God for the image of an ox that eats grass.

John 8:49 Jesus answered, “I have not a demon; but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me.

Romans 2:23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?

James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court?

“Ro.3: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. So, if we had not sinned would we bring greater glory to God?

“1 Corinthians 10:31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.” So, if we eat and drink hurting others will that also bring glory to God?

“Phil. 1:11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ—to the glory and praise of God.” So if we are not filled do we bring glory to God?

Rev. 14: 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” If we are asked to give Glory to God would that also mean we can not give glory to God someway?



God is glorious and nothing man can do will change that, but man can do stuff to show God’s glory or hide God’s glory.

Yes, even sinners can do stuff which will enable God to present His glory (in justice), but man sinning is not what God wants from man.

Christ while on earth, is God on earth and was seen most glorious in going to the cross, so if we are to be ambassadors for Christ, allowing Christ to live in and through us what can we do to show the greatest glory of God?

Do you see false teachers as bring glory to God?



There is a problem:

Anyone, can take any command or even direction given to Christians in scripture and say: “Here is man’s objective” and have scripture to support that answer, but what is man’s Mission Statement which overrides all commands?

Also, rocks have a purpose for being here, but rocks do not have an objective (something they are to get done while being here), so does man have an objective?

Kate30 said:

Seabass yes God did give us the great commission to preach the gospel unto the ends of the earth. But that did take quite some time : ) But not to worry God was busy saving those who belonged to him long before the missionaries arrived. You can call the great commission another great adventure with God. He does use his people in many wonderful different ways to proclaim his glory. One must hear the gospel to have faith? really.

Click to expand...

Yes, really. Romans 10:17.

Kate30 said:

It is only God that gives true faith to believe the gospel anyway. Of course one could have a hundred drunks singing amazing grace right now if you like along with all the grunts and groans that do come with such happy drunks, they may even sing that they have been saved. It’s a rather common past time you know. : ) But really means nothing if God hasn’t given them the faith to believe I really don’t know why your do down on Calvin. He merely stated what the bible says. And that is that God chooses. As to the winners and losers. You say God is no respecter of persons. That’s right. But still he chooses who the winners and losers shall be.

Click to expand...

Romans 10:17 makes it clear that faith comes by hearing the word, so that rules out the idea that one can have only if God gives it to him. Such an idea would make God a respecter of persons (Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35) when He is not and makes God culpable for the faithless...Mark 4:39-40 "And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?" The Calvinist would have to answer Christ that they have no faith for God did not give them faith. How can men be rightly, justly held accountable for no faith or little faith (Matthew 8:26) IF having faith is totally out of man's control and 100% controlled by God? According to Calvinism, Christ's criticism should have been directed to God for their insufficient faith. Why are men commanded to believe (Acts of the Apostles 16:31) IF man has no control, no say so in it?


It becomes obvious that those who choose to believe and be baptized are the ones God adds to the elect group called Christian. God predetermined the group Christian would be saved, but God never unconditionally or capriciously predetermined which individuals would or would not be in this group.

I choose to follow Christ rather than Calvin.

-57 said:

Chapter and verse please.

Click to expand...

I asked you a QUESTION: God owes it to man that every man hear the gospel and be saved?

Yes? No?

I did not say there is a chapter and verse to the question but asked you this question.

np

TheSeabass said:

respecter of persons

Click to expand...

Just what does respector of persons mean? I bet you can think of several examples..nuances.

TheSeabass said:

I asked you a QUESTION: God owes it to man that every man hear the gospel and be saved?

Yes? No?

I did not say there is a chapter and verse to the question but asked you this question.

Click to expand...

God doesn't owe it to anyman to be saved.

TheSeabass said:

but God never unconditionally or capriciously predetermined which individuals would or would not be in this group.

Click to expand...

You have no idea as to why God choose people to be elect prior to them being born and having done anything.
Neither do I.

-57 said:

Just what does respector of persons mean? I bet you can think of several examples..nuances.

Click to expand...

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

God does not show partiality, favoritism for one individual over another when it comes to salvation. Salvation is equal for any and all who fear God and work righteousness will be accepted with God. Yet if God alone solely chooses that only certain individuals can fear God and work righteousness then GOd shows partiality to those individuals over others.

Romans 2:6-11
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

God equally and impartially judges each man according to the type of deeds that man chose to do, whether righteous or unrighteous deeds. It would be partial and favoritism if God determined for certain individuals they do righteous deeds and another unrighteous deeds.


Calvinism HAS God showing partiality, favoritism.

-57 said:

God doesn't owe it to anyman to be saved.

Click to expand...

God does not owe it to man that man hears the gospel, but God has chosen to save men through preaching the gospel, ( 1 Corinthians 1:21; Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16). Are you calling God's choice in how men are to be saved 'happenstance'?

-57 said:

You have no idea as to why God choose people to be elect prior to them being born and having done anything.
Neither do I.

Click to expand...

This is a shortcoming of Calvinism and because Calvinism refuses to see the basis as to why God chooses to have mercy on one over another does not mean I have to refuse to see also. But one can KNOW if he will be saved or not if one is being faithfully obedient to God's will. Again, Romans 2:6-11 man choose his own eternal destiny by choosing to obey God in doing righteousness or disobeying God in doing unrighteousness.

Romans 9:15 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Because a basis is not given in this one verse as to why God has mercy on some and not others does not mean there is no basis at all. When one looks at the sum of God's word (Psalms 139:17) one can easily find that basis is a faithful obedience to God. That is why it is not by coincidence that you cannot find a single person in the Bible who lived impenitently disobedient to God yet still received mercy. It also why you only can find the obedient receiving mercy.

As one person put it, God is not "a totally blind man separating a box of black and white marbles in a cellar at midnight without any light." So there is a basis. If man does not/cannot know this basis, then man cannot have any certainty, cannot even know if he will be saved or not. Yet the Bible says a man can know which means man can know the basis.
So how can you know you will be saved if you do not even know the basis?

The basis does not fit Luther's faith onlyism, but that is not my problem but a problem for those who have chosen to follow Luther rather than Christ. 'Faith only' leaves a gaping black hole in Calvinistic theology when the Bible enlightens man as to why God has mercy upon one and not another.

Rubiks said:

In case some wise guy wants to argue that the statement is technically correct because "glorifying God" is was intended for all people (which would include both accepting and rejecting him, whereas enjoying him would be intended for only the elect;

Click to expand...

First, I am not trying to speak for what a Calvinist might understand about this.

But what I see is that God did create man so man would glorify God and enjoy God for all eternity.

However > man fell from fulfilling this purpose which God did have for all people.

So, in case a Calvinist says what you say Calvinists say > I would say that can be correct, depending on what the Calvinist means . . . by what you say he or she says.

And, of course, even if ones do not glorify and enjoy God, God still is able to glorify Himself by means of how he uses people who refuse Him. I would consider that evil people themselves do not glorify God, but God uses them for His glory, somehow > God will even bring about His all-loving results, from what evil people do > for example, evil people tortured and murdered Jesus, on the cross; yet, look at how God has used this to His glory.

But glorifying God while also enjoying Him for all eternity is for the elect, yes.

But . . . another thing > even though God chose the elect, we started as "children of wrath, just as the others," our Apostle Paul does say in Ephesians 2:3. So, there is no glory to us, that we have chosen Jesus >

"But God be thanked, that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

Hammster said:

Does God favor those who believe over those who do not believe?

Click to expand...

Yes, God will have favor and save those that have an obedient belief and not those that unbelieve. This is the basis of Romans 9:15 as to why God has mercy upon some and not others.

Yet God Himself does not solely determine which individuals will or will not believe for that would make Him a respecter of persons. Since God left it up to man's free will to choose to believe or not, that means God is not being a respecter of persons, so there is an equality among people in receiving mercy. God unconditionally solely choosing takes away that equality.

As Peter put it, any man in any nation that chooses to fear God and work righteousness is accepted with God and this is not showing respect of persons according to Peter.