Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Does willful sin separate those once saved from God.

  • No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

    Votes: 10 33.3%
  • Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

    Votes: 20 66.7%

  • Total voters
    30

Presbyterian Continuist

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My experience with Romans 7 is the reality.
You identify with Paul the Jew, and failure.
I identify with Paul the Christian and Romans 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
And with Romans 8:4..."That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


I pray that your humility is towards God, and you have submitted to all His will.
Of course that would preclude sin, wouldn't it?


If "that experience" is the humility you wrote of, how is that humility manifested?
It is in total dependence on Christ and not in anything of ourselves.
 
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bcbsr

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Nope I have never stated any such thing and if I have never stated that I have not been saved why pretend that I am saying things that I am not? You do not seem to read what is posted to you or address any of my posts and the scriptures and questions in them that disagree with you. Is there a reason for that? I think we both know what the reason is.
Your rhetoric is inherently contradictory. So which is it? You're saying that you have been saved. Your fate of whether you're going to heaven or hell has been finalized? That's not what you've been saying.

If you're saying that you have been saved, but your fate has not been finalized, that's inherently contradictory. As I read your arguments it seems to me you would have to logically say according to your soteriology that you have not be saved just yet, but you have the possibility of being saved, but not until the judgement day, and that based upon your performance. Otherwise you're not making sense.
 
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Scripture, please.
Peter doesn't agree with you..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
John doesn't agree with you... "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Paul doesn't agree with you..."Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)
The writer of Hebrews doesn't agree with you..."But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)
I don't agree with you either.
You are merely expressing Arminian doctrine which includes sanctification by faith, something the Scripture does not teach anywhere. Sanctfication by faith is a false doctrine and leads to error and self-righteousness.
 
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Oh yes.
I see Paul begging for deliverance from "this body of death" in Rom 7:24.
But knowing Romans 7 is a transition between life in the flesh and life in the Spirit, I realize that Rom 6:6-7 supplies the deliverance Paul reminisces of in Rom 7..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."
Those killed with Christ are freed from sin.
Praise be to God for deliverance!
Let me get this straight. You are now fully like Christ now!!
 
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Not if one has been born of God, because "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 And of those who do fall away it is written, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19
By your theology the only saved person is the one who has achieved a state where they are fully like Christ, that their sanctification is fully complete with no fault, shortcoming or failure. In other words, they have shed their mortal body and have now received their glorified body before they have even got to heaven! I would love to meet someone like that to find out what their secret in achieving perfection is.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Not if one has been born of God, because "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 And of those who do fall away it is written, "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

Well that is not true dear brother, who are these scriptures to believers or unbelievers *HEBREWS 6:4-8; JOHN 8:31-36; HEBREWS 3:7-19; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4; HEBREWS 10:26-31; GALATIANS 1:6; HEBREWS 2:1-3; HEBREWS 10:35-38; ISAIAH 59:1-3; EZEKIEL 3:17-21; NUMBERS 14:43; JAMES 5:19; 2 PETER 2:20-22; LUKE 8:13 etc..?

If BELIEVERS cannot fall away from God's WORD why are we WARNED not to? This post of yours was addressed in detail already in posts # 404; post # 405; post # 406; post #407 all linked showing the scriptures you are ignoring in your interpretation of God's Word. Ignoring God's WORD does not make it dissappear. Jesus came to magnify God's Law not abolish it *MATTHEW 5:17-19.

THEY WENT OUT FROM US.. (1 JOHN 2:18-19)

God's Word does indeed have an answer to those who fall away brother, but not by your interpretation of these scriptures.

1 JOHN 2:18-19
[18], Little children, it is the last time: and as you have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
[19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

v18, Anything that is against Christ is antichrist. The Greek word used here is ἀντίχριστος
antichristos which means against Christ of an opponent of the Messiah. If we no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD then we are an "UNBELIEVER" and against Christ because we no longer BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

As shown in the scriptures [19], They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

What did they go out from? They went out from the truth. The problem was not that they went out from fellowship with the BELIEVERS. The problem was that they became "UNBELIEVERS" not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD!

The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers (ἀντίχριστος; antichristos; those who are against Christ and apponant of the Messiah. These are those who are AGAINST God's WORD.

They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer believed and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (UNBELIEVERS). If they contunued with us then they would be of us (by continuing to believe and follow the truth of God's Word) and would have been of us. No longer believing and following God's Word they went out from us. If you no longer believe and follow the truth of God's Word to the end then you are no longer of us.

Let's now link these scriptures back to the previous post in JOHN 8:31-36. Do you remember the conditions that JESUS states for those who are His DISCIPLES and as PAUL says CONTINUED WITH US?

JOHN 8:31-36 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD , THEN ARE YOU MY DISCIPLES INDEED;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. [33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free? [34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. [35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever. [36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

They went out from us because they were not of us. They went out from us (disciples) because they did not CONTINUE BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. As a result of no longer BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD they left the truth.

What did they go out from? Yep you guessed it. They went out from the truth. The CONTEXT is that there is many antichrists and false teachers. They went out from the truth of God's Word and no longer believed and followed Gods' Word which made them not of us (Believers and followers of Gods' Word).

............

Then we read of BELIEVERS that have received God's Spirit and have fallen away..

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The question your considering is; were these BELIEVERS and Born again christians. Lets look at the key points in these that describe who there people were from the scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; v4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; v4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; v4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; v5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5


So reviewing the CONTEXT of these scriptures we don't really need to say much they speak for themselves. These people were BELIEVERS that departed from GOD and became "UNBELIEVERS" returning back to a life of sin. These people are BELIEVERS as shown in the CONTEXT of v4-5 which continues...

[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Yep thier end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6). These scripture are pretty rock solid I think and show that a BELIEVER can FALL AWAY back into SIN. Not sure why your having problems here brother to be honest.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You just repeated yourself and ignored the scriptures I provided which prove eternal security. I can also provide you with Romans 8 in which "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." And in which nothing can separate the elect from their predestined glorification including nothing in their "future" Rom 8:38

As for your posts the contain the usual faulty interpretations which I keep pointing out. Confusing Old Covenant with New, arbitrarily adding "in order to be saved" to commands, confusing nominal faith with genuine faith, and confusing cause and effect.

Don't confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved.

Not at all. You have not provided a single scripture that teaches once saved always saved. This teaching is not biblical as shown the scriptures provided in the earlier posts to you. I am only linking my earliers responses to you because your just repeating yourself here while ignoring all the scriptures in the posts provided to you already that disagree with you teachings. As posted earlier your only repeating yourself now. Everything your posting has already been addressed in detail in posts # 404; post # 405; post # 406; post #407. Ignoring God's WORD does not make it dissappear. Jesus came to magnify God's Law not abolish it *MATTHEW 5:17-19.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Your rhetoric is inherently contradictory. So which is it? You're saying that you have been saved. Your fate of whether you're going to heaven or hell has been finalized? That's not what you've been saying.

No need to be angry now brother. Or pretend I am posting things I am not especially after correcting you as to what it is I believe. To say I believe or have said something I have not is simply misleading. You have been told already on more than one occassion now what it is I believe I am not going to repeat myself to you again. Try reading the posts that have been provided to you (last one of many was in post # 499 linked or have a read of post # 492 linked).

If you're saying that you have been saved, but your fate has not been finalized, that's inherently contradictory. As I read your arguments it seems to me you would have to logically say according to your soteriology that you have not be saved just yet, but you have the possibility of being saved, but not until the judgement day, and that based upon your performance. Otherwise you're not making sense.

Not at all. As posted earlier all of God's promises are conditional promises made to BELIEVERS only in the "PRESENT TENSE". If you were a BELIEVER yesterday and today you are an "UNBELIEVER" no longer BELIEVING and FOLLOWING GOd's WORD then you have fallen away FALLEN AWAY according to the scriptures and have become an "UNBELIEVER" **HEBREWS 6:4-8; JOHN 8:31-36; HEBREWS 3:7-19; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4; HEBREWS 10:26-31; GALATIANS 1:6; HEBREWS 2:1-3; HEBREWS 10:35-38; ISAIAH 59:1-3; EZEKIEL 3:17-21; NUMBERS 14:43; JAMES 5:19; 2 PETER 2:20-22; LUKE 8:13 etc...

If you BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD (NOW) then God's promises are for you. If you do not than God's promises are not for you because you have become an "UNBELIEVER". That is why it is written only those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END ENDURING TEMPTATION receive God's gift of eternal life.

MATTHEW 24:13 [12], And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. [13], But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

MARK 13:13 [13], And you shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved.

HEBREWS 3:13-14 [13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. [14], For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

HEBREWS 3:6 [6], But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23
[12], Giving thanks to the Father, which has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[13], Who has delivered us from the power of darkness, and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[14], In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.....
[23], If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

ROMANS 6:22 [22], But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.

REVELATION 2:26 [26], And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations

2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3 [1], Now we beseech you, brothers, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together to him, [2], That you be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3], Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

MATTHEW 13:18-23 [18], Hear you therefore the parable of the sower.
[19], When any one hears the word of the kingdom, and understands it not, then comes the wicked one, and catches away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. [20], But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that hears the word, and immediately with joy receives it; [21], Yet has he not root in himself, but endures for a while: for when tribulation or persecution rises because of the word, by and by he is offended. [22], He also that received seed among the thorns is he that hears the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.[23], But he that received seed into the good ground is he that hears the word, and understands it; which also bears fruit, and brings forth, some an hundred times, some sixty, some thirty.

REVELATION 2:26 And he that overcomes, and keeps my works to the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

REVELATION 3:5 He that overcomes, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

REVELATION 3:12 Him that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write on him my new name.

REVELATION 3:21 To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

REVELATION 21:7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

wait for it...

JAMES 1:12 [12], Blessed is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord has promised to them that love him.

Now who are all these WARNINGS to BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS?

Hope this helps
 
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LoveGodsWord

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By your theology the only saved person is the one who has achieved a state where they are fully like Christ, that their sanctification is fully complete with no fault, shortcoming or failure. In other words, they have shed their mortal body and have now received their glorified body before they have even got to heaven! I would love to meet someone like that to find out what their secret in achieving perfection is.

Sorry I believe no such thing. There you go again saying things I have neither said or believe? If I have neither said or believe the things you are posting why do you claim that I do?

Thankyou, but I have no theology. I cannot take any credit for God's WORD shared with you in love and only as a help to you. They are God's WORD not my words. You provide your own words which are not God's. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4. I know who I believe and follow and it is not you.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts though.
 
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Sorry I believe no such thing. Thanks for your compliments though, but I cannot take any credit for God's WORD shared with you. They are God's WORD not my words. You provide your own words which are not God's. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4. I know who I believe and follow and it is not you.
So, if you are not totally Christlike, then there must be parts of you that are not Christlike; therefore your obedience is not complete.

How come then, if your own obedience is not complete, why are you teaching that obedience has to be complete for a person to have assurance of salvation?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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So, if you are not totally Christlike, then there must be parts of you that are not Christlike; therefore your obedience is not complete.

How come then, if your own obedience is not complete, why are you teaching that obedience has to be complete for a person to have assurance of salvation?

I am not teaching any such thing why do you pretend that I am? Do you know the difference between known sin and unknown sin and growing in Christ?
 
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I am not teaching any such thing why do you pretend that I am?
But you are saying that unless we are totally sinless, we can't say we are saved! Sin is transgression of the Law,and so if a person's obedience is not complete, then they must be transgressing the Law in some way. Isn't that what you are teaching?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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But you are saying that unless we are totally sinless, we can't say we are saved! Sin is transgression of the Law,and so if a person's obedience is not complete, then they must be transgressing the Law in some way. Isn't that what you are teaching?

No I am not or have I ever posted any such thing. If I have never posted that we have to be totally sinless to be saved why are you pretending that I am? Do you know the difference between known sin and unknown sin and growing in Christ? OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8.
 
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Define "presence of sin".

A life that shows no evidence of repentance is evidence of having never been saved. Yet no mere mortal is ever sinless on this side of eternity.
Peter told Ananias that he could have kept all the proceeds of his sale for himself and use it freely as he wished, since it belonged to him. Sin became sin only when he committed a disloyal action.

There was no sin of "omission"...

When he joined the church, his action was like that of Israel in leaving Egypt. But repentance, meta noia, requires completion: not only must a person leave serving mammon for treasure that rusts, he must start serving God for treasure that never perishes. It seems that Ananias was in transition: he left Egypt, but he had not yet committed to God, like Joshua in the OT and Peter in the NT.

Joshua 24
14Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; cast aside the gods your fathers served beyond the Euphrates and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15But if it is unpleasing in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselvesthis day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathersserved beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites in whoseland you are living. As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD!”

Matthew 19
27"Look!" Peter replied. "We have left everything and followed you. So what will we get?"

But (and it's a big "but"), God never faulted him for sitting on the fence. He was only found sinning when he reverted back to craving for the treasures of Egypt.
 
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No I am not or have I ever posted any such thing. If I have never posted that we have to be totally sinless to be saved why are you pretending that I am? Do you know the difference between known sin and unknown sin and growing in Christ? OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8.
So how does that differ from the Calvinist progressive sanctification that also believes that obedience is based upon follow God's moral Law?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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So how does that differ from the Calvinist progressive sanctification that also believes that obedience is based upon follow God's moral Law?

This is why I asked you a few times earlier do you know the difference between KNOWN SIN and UNKNOWN SIN *JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31 and what growing in Christ means (milk, meat) *1 PETER 2:2; EPHESIANS 4:15; 2 PETER 3:18? Do you know how this all relates to JAMES 4:17 and ACTS 17:30-31? How do you read these scriptures?
 
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This is why I asked you a few times earlier do you know the difference between KNOWN SIN and UNKNOWN SIN *JAMES 4:17; ACTS 17:30-31 and what growing in Christ means (milk, meat) *1 PETER 2:2; EPHESIANS 4:15; 2 PETER 3:18? Do you know how this all relates to JAMES 4:17 and ACTS 17:30-31? How do you read these scriptures?
I asked you a direct question, and I am waiting for your direct answer. Or don't you know what Calvinist sanctification actually is?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I asked you a direct question, and I am waiting for your direct answer. Or don't you know what Calvinist sanctification actually is?
I asked you my questions first. A discussion does not go one way. If you do not know the answer to the questions asked of you just say so. Or if you do not want to answer the question asked of you no one is forcing you to. I know why you will not answer the questions asked of you. Maybe you can pray about it.
 
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Grip Docility

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It seems the commentaries you are used to have convinced you that no man can serve God perfectly.
Too bad.
As for 1 John 1:8...
John is writing to a church, about two kinds of men.
Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in the darkness.
Those who walk in the light have had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. They CAN say they have no sin.
Those who walk in darkness cannot say they have no sin, because they do continue to commit sin.
John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B style of writing. (Also used by Paul in Romans 8...Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh.)
A applies to those who walk in the light and B applies to those who walk in the darkness.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 refer to those who walk in the light.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 refer to those who walk in the darkness.

No A-B

It says you make God a liar if you say you have no sin.
 
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