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It seems I have done a good job explaining and you have understood.I can't speak for everybody, but I am not disputing that John is watching an episode play out in the throne room of heaven where the strong angel asks who is worthy to open the book. It's your imposing a timing theory on the event, necessitating a long period of time going backward between contiguous passages that I question.
Correct me if I've got it wrong, but you are saying that:
• Around 95AD John is called up to the throne room of heaven to witness things that are in the future after 95AD.
Revelation 4:11 -- After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
• But he is immediately cast into a vision of some time a good 60 years before that where the angel is asking who is worthy to open the book.
Revelation 5:2 -- And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time 60-year flashback.)
• Then, the time shifts within moments to several years later to allow Christ to be crucified and resurrected in order to receive the scroll.
Revelation 5:6 -- And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time moving forward of a few years, but still a flashback to decades before John's real-time visit to heaven.)
• Then, within the same event, John sees at least 2,000 years later the beginning of the opening of the seals which Jesus was just handed. (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time leap of at least 2,000 years into the future, as all that John had seen is already at least 2,000 years in his future, and still in our future in fact, as the end times tribulation has not yet begun.)
This is what's interesting: Of the 25 verses in Revelation 4-5 fully 21 of them begin with the conjunction "and." One dictionary defines "and" as:
1. a word used to connect clauses or sentences or to coordinate words in the same clause.
2. the action or an instance of two or more events or things occurring at the same point in time or space.
It's particularly poignant that the conjunction "and" joins the end of Chapter 5 with the beginning of Chapter 6, meaning the events shown as beginning in Chapter 6, the opening of the seals, immediately follows the events in the previous chapter, the giving of the scroll to Christ; which immediately follows the angel asking who is worthy to open the scroll.
One widely recognized rule of good hermeneutics is that when a literal interpretation makes sense, seek no other interpretation. There is literally no problem with interpreting the events of Chapters 4 and 5, leading into Chapter 6, as a contiguous series of events unfolding from beginning to end, with the conclusion being the opening of the seals in Chapter 6.
However, imposing an unnecessary back-and-forth timeline on these contiguous events creates confusion and, furthermore, is not supported in the text.
The introduction to this passage that begins in Revelation 4:1 is absolutely unambiguous: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." And there is no text in Chapters 4 and 5 cancelling that pronouncement. Like I said, the vast majority of verses in the two chapters begin with the conjunction "and" bridging each verse to the next in an unbroken series of contiguous events.
Iamlamad, my challenge to you is to show the text cancelling the "hereafter" that proves your theory about the flashback that you say John witnesses.
(Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time 60-year flashback.) Certainly there is, but it is not real obvious. People just read over these verses and don't get the intent of the Author. The support is the entire narrative starting with Jesus NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father, then the Holy Spirit there instead of already sent down, then "no man found." A vision of the past answers all of these very well.
Many have disagreed with me but none have come up with another therory that answers these questions as well.
time shifts within moments to several years later to allow Christ to be crucified and resurrected in order to receive the scroll. Time passes on, but not as you said. Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father shows us He was on the earth or under the earth at that point in time. The Holy Spirit there shows us He had not yet ascended, so again, still on the earth or under the earth.
"no man found" and then Jesus found tells us He has just risen from the dead - so we can pinpoint the time more closely. We can certainly see time passing. Just Jesus not seen at the right hand of the Father could be any time during His 32 years on earth. "no man found" can be any time of those 32 years up to the time He rose from the dead. Putting all three together into one narrative would seem to me to indicate that the first two, Jesus not seen at the Father's right hand, and the Holy Spirit still there was while Jesus was UNDER the ground. He then rose from the dead and was immediately found worthy to take the book. He had become the Redeemer. Men could now become born again.
in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain He was NOT There, and suddenly He appeared. We know the story from other scriptures: Jesus appeared to Mary and said He had not yet ascended, telling us His plan was to ascend. It seems very likely then that after He sent Mary away He DID ascend.
It should not be so difficult then to see that John saw this very moment in time when Jesus ascended back into the throne room and then sent the Holy Spirit down?
there is no Scriptural support for a real-time moving forward of a few years Certainly there IS! Jesus was NOT found and then later WAS FOUND. That is the movement of time. What we don't know and cannot ascertain from John, is if this time was hours, days or weeks: John gives us no indication of how long. It could have been seconds! Common sense tells us there was time before Jesus rose from the dead - then He rose as time moved on.
We could say the same thing: there was TIME before Jesus ascended ( a throne room without Jesus) and then as time passed Jesus ascended and then it was a throne room with Christ seen at the right hand of the Father, as Stephen saw Him.
Consider Rev. 12: 1-5: a VERY BRIEF and very symbolic narrative of Jesus' birth, then how the Dragon tried to kill Him as a child, and then His entire life in one verse: He was caught up.
In chapters 4 & 5, God is giving us a VERY BRIEF narrative of HOW and WHEN Jesus got the book into HIS hands and began opening the seals. Perhaps you are too close to a tree and cannot see the forest.
Did you notice? "stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes..." When Jesus ascended, He ascended filled with the Holy Spirit (without measure). But in the same sentence the Holy Spirit left Him and was sent down to the earth. This is difficult to picture since the Holy Spirit is omnipresent - but it is written.
Then, within the same event, John sees at least 2,000 years later the beginning of the opening of the seals which Jesus was just handed. (Note there is no Scriptural support for a real-time leap of at least 2,000 years into the future
WOW! You said a mouthful there but it appears you don't believe what you said! There IS NO 2000 years there. It is good that you recognize it. That is my point! Jesus got the book and began opening the seals RIGHT THEN - as soon as He ascended. The first seal represents the church starting out with the gospel in 32 AD! You cannot find 2000 years there because that is not the Author's intent: IT IS NOT THERE! The whole purpose of chapters 4 & 5 is to establish the TIMING of the first seal!
What you miss: in your preconceptions, you imagine that the "tribulation" or 70th week begins with the first seal. You are OFF by 2000 years. the "trib" or 70th week begins at the 7th seal. You are also 6 seals off from truth. Seal 1 is the CHURCH with the GOSPEL.
(for 2000 years the church has been between the 5th seal - the martyrs of the church age - and the 6th seal which begins the Day of the Lord. Paul taught us that the Day of the Lord is a back to back event with the rapture - they cannot be separated: the moment after the rapture, the Day of the Lord comes.
It's particularly poignant that the conjunction "and" joins the end of Chapter 5 with the beginning of Chapter 6, meaning the events shown as beginning in Chapter 6, the opening of the seals, immediately follows the events in the previous chapter, the giving of the scroll to Christ; which immediately follows the angel asking who is worthy to open the scroll.
WOW AGAIN! You have shocked me. FINALLY someone is getting this! Why is it you see this? Because it is the very intent of the Author! Chapters 4 & 5 are the CONTEXT of the first seal. John did not write "chapter 6.) God is setting the TIMING of Jesus getting the book and beginning to open the seals. People have IMAGINED for centuries that the seals are a part of the "tribulation." They have been mistaken. The age of grace passes and the Day starts between the 5th and 6th seal. Anyone with careful reading should be able to see this.
I think most would have seen this long ago but for TWO WORDS written in chapter 7 about the great crowd too large to number. Make no mistake, this is the just raptured church seen in heaven. But John wrote that these came out of great tribulation. So most people instantly imagine they came out of the days Jesus spoke of. No, John has not yet even started the week. the days of GT that Jesus spoke of won't even begin until between chapters 14 and 15. We see the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven in chapter 15!
It is clear John has another meaning in mind. I can convinced John is telling us that at the time of the rapture, people we be being martyred around the world. We are almost there now!
imposing an unnecessary back-and-forth timeline on these contiguous events creates confusion and, furthermore, is not supported in the text. There is no "back and forth!" Jesus is not seen in the throne room, because He has not yet risen from the dead. the Holy Spirit is there because Jesus has not yet risen from the dead and ascended. "no man was found" because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead.
Finally as time passed Jesus WAS found worthy, because He had just risen from the dead. Shortly after He rose from the dead, He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. John is marching us straight through time.
God wanted to show John (and in turn us) the book. He chose to start the narrative while the book was still in the Father's hand. I think God had ever right to do it exactly as He did it - starting by showing John a vision of a throne room of John's past - a time before Jesus ascended. In other words, all this was NECESSARY for the way God chose to show John the vision starting with the book still on the FAther's hands.
Stop and think: how would YOU have told this story, if you were to write it? It is 60 years past the events and you must write some history. How would you tell it?
"Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." Did you notice? There is NOTHING in that sentence that forbids God staring with things past. From the 6th seal on all IS future events - with minor exceptions. God therefore DID fulfill this promise. You have no right to impose an "only" into this sentence! God did not tell John He would tell him ONLY of things hereafter.
Iamlamad, my challenge to you is to show the text cancelling the "hereafter" There is no need to cancel it: God DID show John many things STILL not fulfilled.
Dave, yours was a very well written post. Good job!
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