Star of David - your comments

parousia70 said:

Define Jewish Identity?
Is it Religious? Cultural? Genetic?
What is it?

Click to expand...

All of the above, but primarily genetic. Which should not be. Their genetics should have dissipated due to outbreeding long ago.

keras said:

True colors showing.

Click to expand...

No but yours definitely are! I guess you didn't understand what my point was? The cross was a symbol of humiliation, torture and death, yet Yeshua turned it into a symbol of victory.

friend of said:

No. Even a few thousand years isn't enough to claim the Jews interbred with the rest of humanity and now we are all in some sort of genetic equilibrium as if humanity is a pot of soup and we just added an ingredient and stirred it around

Click to expand...

Clearly you didn’t read the links I provided.

Mathematics (and history) says otherwise.

In Europe alone, every single eroupean alive today (who is not a recent immigrant), has among their ancestors the same man or woman who lived only 600 years ago:

Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty

Even the Jews trumpet the notion of today’s Jewish ubiquity among the human race:
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

It might be tough pill for some to swallow, but math is math.

parousia70 said:

might be tough pill for some to swallow, but math is math

Click to expand...

Hold on a minute. Wasn't it you that made the claim the Jews were eradicated in 70AD?

If so, then which is it? Either they were eradicated then, or enough of them survived to adulterated the genetics of every other race in the world...

friend of said:

Hold on a minute. Wasn't it you that made the claim the Jews were eradicated in 70AD?

If so, then which is it? Either they were eradicated then, or enough of them survived to adulterated the genetics of every other race in the world...

Click to expand...

Upwards of 2 million were exterminated... a scant 100,000 or so were taken as slaves.

Any and all Hebrew DNA that all 7 Billion of us now possess came from among those 100K, and there is no one on earth today who is "more" Hebrew than anyone else.

Regardless, AD70 was the event that EXCOMMUNICATED those people out of Covenant with God, in fulfillment of prophesy.

The Only covenant people on earth today are the ones who Follow Christ.

parousia70 said:

Any and all Hebrew DNA that all 7 Billion of us now possess came from among those 100K, and there is no one on earth today who is "more" Hebrew than anyone else.

Click to expand...

Okay, there's a pretty big problem with this logic, as it assumes the scant remaining 100K of original Hebrews bred so much with every race in the world, that the Chinese, Middle eastern, and Subsaharan Africans even share Hebrew DNA. If we follow your logic, then there shouldn't even be any races anymore, we should all be one big melted pot of singular racial identity. Everyone by this time should have Mongolian and African and Mediterranean genes, since those groups are far larger. This isn't the case at all.

My claim, to clarify, is that those 100K or however many, God actually preserved their genetic lineage, in spite of being a wandering people without a true homeland. That's what's miraculous and providential.

This is not to say that genetic Hebrews post 70 AD never interbred with other races to have children, only that they never did to such an extent as to dilute their genetics to the point of losing their racial distinction of Hebrew. You think they did, and that they are no more, but then why did they get Israel in 1948? Why would God give Israel to any other people than God's chosen people?

parousia70 said:

Regardless, AD70 was the event that EXCOMMUNICATED those people out of Covenant with God, in fulfillment of prophesy.

The Only covenant people on earth today are the ones who Follow Christ

Click to expand...

This is a bit of a contradiction, are you saying that the modern-day Jew cannot follow Jesus then since God excommunicated them? Prophecy states no such thing as an excommunication from the Body of believers for a specific race. Romans 11:11-32

friend of said:

My claim, to clarify, is that those 100K or however many, God actually preserved their genetic lineage, in spite of being a wandering people without a true homeland. That's what's miraculous and providential.

Click to expand...

The difference is, I have Math, Science and Genetics to support my claim, you have wishful thinking to support yours.

This is not to say that genetic Hebrews post 70 AD never interbred with other races to have children, only that they never did to such an extent as to dilute their genetics to the point of losing their racial distinction of Hebrew.

Click to expand...

The Genetic facts disagree with you.

You think they did, and that they are no more, but then why did they get Israel in 1948?

Click to expand...

Who Got Israel in 1948?
Was there a DNA test proving those who got it were Direct descendants from the pre desoaltion Hebrews?

Why would God give Israel to any other people than God's chosen people?

Click to expand...

Who did God Give it to from AD 71-1947?

In 1948, The UN gave Israel to its current Multi ethnic, Multi Religious and Secular inhabitants. It wasn't God.

Which one of these modern Jews is a REAL, PURE Racial Hebrew in your view:

This is a bit of a contradiction, are you saying that the modern-day Jew cannot follow Jesus then since God excommunicated them?

Click to expand...

There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him.

Douggg said:

The Jews expectation of a King was right. But the religious leaders did not want Jesus as King because he was critical of the them, and informed them that he came from heaven and was God.

John 5:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Click to expand...

Hi Brother ..I am not sure their expectations were right for they had only been aware of Kings like David , Solomon , a few godly kings and many wicked rulers .

And when Jesus therefore perceived that they would take Him by force and make Him a King , he departed again into a mountain region alone . ( John 6:15 ) I do not know if they understood a foot washing king who made himself of no reputation .

I agree that the religious leaders did not want Jesus as King . It is no different today for it causes us to give up the throne of our own heart . Ironic that many believers are still trying to make Jesus King . But of course he can not be made a King for he was always a King with or without our acknowledgement . I suppose he departed into the desert so that MAN could not make him a king .

parousia70 said:

The difference is, I have Math, Science and Genetics to support my claim, you have wishful thinking to support yours.


The Genetic facts disagree with you.



Who Got Israel in 1948?
Was there a DNA test proving those who got it were Direct descendants from the pre desoaltion Hebrews?


Who did God Give it to from AD 71-1947?

In 1948, The UN gave Israel to its current Multi ethnic, Multi Religious and Secular inhabitants. It wasn't God.

Which one of these modern Jews is a REAL, PURE Racial Hebrew in your view:

Jewish Race?

• parousia70
• Jun 28, 2017
• 9

There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him.

Click to expand...

Yes ! Hallelujah ! That was ( is ) the reconciliation ...One body. No longer Jew nor Gentile , bond or free . Dwelling by faith in the One who was before Abraham . Yes brother for the Holy Spirit has no race , nor do the fruits of the spirit like love, patience , kindness , meekness , etc. recognize even biology . Of course sadly , because of the flesh ...enmity , strife , divisions , etc infect all races and genders .
Thank you brother .

parousia70 said:

In Europe alone, every single eroupean alive today (who is not a recent immigrant), has among their ancestors the same man or woman who lived only 600 years ago:

Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty

Even the Jews trumpet the notion of today’s Jewish ubiquity among the human race:
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?

Click to expand...

These links are not saying what you seem to think. From the first one:

"That’s not to say that a single mythical woman somehow produced every European by magically laying a clutch of eggs. All this means is that as you move back through time, sooner or later some of the lines in the genealogy will cross, meeting at a single person."

This is kind of an unbiblical statement from the article, but even if we go back to Adam and Eve and admit all humans came from them, that doesnt change the fact that God purposed racial divides. The old Testament is about God guiding His physical chosen people, who were racially Jewish.

The second article, which doesn't support your claim that everyone has Jewish DNA in any way, starts off with this falsehood from a Jewish rabbi:

Recent advances in DNA testing are the final stage in bringing about a special vision of Messiah, one that will fulfill God’s promise to Abraham while uniting all three major Abrahamic religions, believes a prominent rabbi and former member of Knesset

Pretty silly. What else do these rabbis say:

"the rabbi noted. “But anyone who discovers that they are descended from Jews, we are required to help them. The non-Jews will remain as they are, but we have to reconnect to those souls that were lost.”

If the potential to discover that one descends from Jewish lineage exists, then the opposite possibility must also exist; ergo one may discover their own lack of Jewish lineage.

What about "The Science"

"The task set out by Rabbi Amsalem, inconceivable just a few short years ago, is at hand. A simple DNA test is performed at home with a cheek swab, which is then mailed to a laboratory. For less than $200, anyone can learn their ancestry going back six generations – The task set out by Rabbi Amsalem, inconceivable just a few short years ago, is at hand. A simple DNA test is performed at home with a cheek swab, which is then mailed to a laboratory. For less than $200, anyone can learn their ancestry going back six generations – including if they have any Jewish genes"

In other words, this DNA test will tell you if you have any Jewish genes. It will also tell you if you DO NOT have Jewish genes. So much for your notion that everyone's Jewish.

parousia70 said:

Which one of these modern Jews is a REAL, PURE Racial Hebrew in your view:

Click to expand...

From the looks of it, it looks like they've simple converted to Judaism. People can still convert to Judaism and not be physically Jewish despite what some supremacist rabbis think.

parousia70 said:

The difference is, I have Math, Science and Genetics to support my claim, you have wishful thinking to support yours

Click to expand...

Posting semi-credible scientific links is one thing. Actually understanding what they mean is altogether another.

parousia70 said:

There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him

Click to expand...

Correct.

But God's still not done with the physical nation of Israel. It is undeniably providential that Israel today is closely partnered with the world superpower USA, for if it were not, it would have been wiped out a long long time ago.

Douggg said:

The messiah was expected to reunite all of Israel into one nation again, and be the one king over Israel. The reuniting of Israel, the stick of Juda with the stick of Joseph, is actually an end times prophecy in Ezekiel 37.

Click to expand...

Correct, their uniting would be in the "latter days". But the latter days is not 1948. It was when Christ appeared at the first advent:

Hebrew 9:26 Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Ephraim's offspring were prophesied to become, through the blessing of Jacob, a multitude of gentiles (Hebrew word for nations: goy; which is the same as gentiles).

Genesis 48:19 But his father refused. “I know, my son, I know!” he said. “He too shall become a people, and he too shall be great; nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.

Due to Ephraim's (another name for the northern kingdom) disobedience under the old covenant, God divorced them, effectively making them no longer his people, and exiled them through the nation of Assyrian. Thus the exiled northern kingdom who intermingled with the nations became gentiles in relation to God.

Jeremiah 3:8 She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce. Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the harlot

Hosea 1:9 And the Lord said, “Call his name Not My People, for you are not my people, and I am not your God."

Hosea 7:8 Ephraim mixes himself with the peoples; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

2 kings 17:23 until the Lord removed Israel out of his sight, as he had spoken by all his servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their own land to Assyria until this day.

However, God did promise that one day, the descendants of the northern kingdom would again be his people, united with the kingdom of Judah under one head.

Hosea 1:10-11 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, “You are not my people,” it shall be said to them, “Childrene of the living God.” And the children of Judah and the children of Israel shall be gathered together, and they shall appoint for themselves one head. And they shall go up from the land, for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 2:23 and I will sow her for myself in the land. And I will have mercy on No Mercy, and I will say to Not My People,i ‘You are my people’; and he shall say, ‘You are my God.’”

Paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as being fulfilled in the 1st century with the GENTILES being included with the Jews in the vessels of mercy.

Romans 9:24-26 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

Paul has the Jew and Gentile becoming one body through the death of Christ
Ephesians 2:15-16 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.

Paul has Christ as the "head" of this new body, which the Jew and Gentile coming together as one.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent

Thus, by God including the gentiles, of whom some descended from the divorced and exiled northern kingdom, with the Jews, in vessels of mercy, God fulfills his promises to reunite the northern and southern kingdom under one Head, who is Christ. This began to occur in the 1st century, and not 1948. This is substantiated by Romans 9:24-25, where Paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as being fulfilled with the GENTILES being included with the jews in the vessels of mercy.

friend of said:

But God's still not done with the physical nation of Israel.

Click to expand...

The old covenant still exists and is still in effect?

friend of said:

From the looks of it, it looks like they've simple converted to Judaism. People can still convert to Judaism and not be physically Jewish despite what some supremacist rabbis think.

Click to expand...

If they are not physically Jewish are they still physical Israel?

Which ones do you think converted and which do you think were born Jewish?
I think the African and the Indian were Born Jewish and the rest are converts.

What do you think?

You seem to be asserting here that DNA is irrelevant in determining the makeup of Physical Israel.

But God's still not done with the physical nation of Israel.

Click to expand...

What scriptures do you believe support this notion?

It is undeniably providential that Israel today is closely partnered with the world superpower USA, for if it were not, it would have been wiped out a long long time ago.

Click to expand...

So would have Australia, or France, or any number of secular democratic nation states like Israel.
Providence indeed.

keras said: ↑
My posts conflict with your beliefs, so they are 'silly'?
Rather than asking questions and poking the finger at those who post unpalatable truths, either change your beliefs or refute them with proper honest rebuttal.

The Star (Shield) of David, also called Magen David, is a relatively new Jewish symbol. Supposedly, it represents the shape of King David's shield (but there is no rabbinic support for that claim).

Is there any theological significance to the symbol? Some claim that the top triangle strives upward, toward God, while the lower triangle strives downward, toward the real world. Others note that the intertwining represents the inseparable nature of the Jewish people. Still others claim the three sides stand for the three types of Jews: Kohanim, Levites and Israel. A similar claim could be made for the three major movements. However, these theories have little basis in historical fact.

Click to expand...

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Unpalatable truths? They are conspiracy theories. I am not going to waste my time on such silliness.

Kind of like the Christian cross...??

"During the Holocaust, the Nazis chose the yellow star as an identifying badge required on the garments of all Jews. After the war, Jews turned this symbol of humiliation and death into a badge of honour. "

Click to expand...

According to wiki, it was the RCC that started that practice of marking Jews in the Mid Ages, and if I remember right, didn't Hitler lean toward Catholicism?

A few verses using the word "yellow"

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
"yellow"occurs 5 times in 5 verses in the NKJV.

Lev 13:30
“then the priest shall examine the sore; and indeed if it appears deeper than the skin, and there is in it thin yellow hair, then the priest shall pronounce him unclean. It is a scaly leprosy of the head or beard.

Used 1 time in the NT:

Rev 9:17
And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.
=============================
A thread on the holocaust:

The Holocaust: Was it the wrath and judgment of God?

Achilles6129 said:

This thread is to discuss a relatively controversial subject: whether or not the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God upon the Jews. The question is a controversial one. Going into Scripture, we find examples of what God will do to the Jews if they disobey his commands:

"“‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. 25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs." Deut. 32:23-25 (ESV)

We clearly see in Scripture that God is not a God who is incompatible with a Holocaust. The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God.

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I'll leave the rest open. Thoughts?

Click to expand...

================================
Yellow badge - Wikipedia

Medieval Catholic Europe
In largely Catholic Medieval Europe, Jews and Muslims were required to wear distinguishable clothing in some periods. These measures were not seen as being inconsistent with Sicut Judaeis. Although not the first ecclesiastic requirement for non-Christians to wear distinguishable clothing, the Fourth Council of the Lateran headed by Pope Innocent III ruled in 1215 that Jews and Muslims must wear distinguishable dress (Latin habitus). Canon 68 reads, in part:

In some provinces a difference in dress distinguishes the Jews or Saracens from the Christians, but in certain others such a confusion has grown up that they cannot be distinguished by any difference. Thus it happens at times that through error Christians have relations with the women of Jews or Saracens, and Jews and Saracens with Christian women.
Therefore, that they may not, under pretext of error of this sort, excuse themselves in the future for the excesses of such prohibited intercourse, we decree that such Jews and Saracens of both sexes in every Christian province and at all times shall be marked off in the eyes of the public from other peoples through the character of their dress. Particularly, since it may be read in the writings of Moses [Numbers 15:37–41], that this very law has been enjoined upon them.[5]

Innocent III had in 1199 confirmed Sicut Judaeis, which was also confirmed by Pope Honorius III in 1216. In 1219, Honorius III issued a dispensation to the Jews of Castile,[6] the largest Jewish population in Europe. Spanish Jews normally wore turbans, which presumably met the requirement to be distinctive.[7]
Elsewhere, local laws were introduced to bring the canon into effect.[8] The identifying mark varied from one country to another, and from period to period.

In 1227, the Synod of Narbonne, in canon 3, ruled:

That Jews may be distinguished from others, we decree and emphatically command that in the center of the breast (of their garments) they shall wear an oval badge, the measure of one finger in width and one half a palm in height ...[5]

However, these ecclesiastic pronouncements required legal sanctions of a temporal authority. In 1228, James I of Aragon ordered Jews of Aragon to wear the badge;[6] and in 1265, the Siete Partidas, a legal code enacted in Castile by Alfonso X but not implemented until many years later, included a requirement for Jews to wear distinguishing marks.[9]
On 19 June 1269, Louis IX of France imposed a fine of ten livres (one livre was equivalent to a pound of silver) on Jews found in public without a badge (Latin: rota, "wheel", French: rouelle or roue).[6][10]
The enforcement of wearing the badge is repeated by local councils, with varying degrees of fines, at Arles 1234 and 1260, Béziers 1246, Albi 1254, Nîmes 1284 and 1365, Avignon 1326 and 1337, Rodez 1336, and Vanves 1368.[6] The "rota" looked like a ring of white or yellow.[11]

The shape and colour of the patch also varied, although the colour was usually white or yellow. Married women were often required to wear two bands of blue on their veil or head-scarf.[12]

In 1274, Edward I of England enacted the Statute of Jewry, which also included a requirement:

Each Jew, after he is seven years old, shall wear a distinguishing mark on his outer garment, that is to say, in the form of two Tables joined, of yellow felt of the length of six inches and of the breadth of three inches.[13][14]

In German-speaking Europe, a requirement for a badge was less common than the Judenhut or Pileum cornutum (a cone-shaped head dress, common in medieval illustrations of Jews). In 1267, in a special session, the Vienna city council required Jews to wear a Judenhut; the badge does not seem to have been worn in Austria.[15] There is a reference to a dispensation from the badge in Erfurt on 16 October 1294, the earliest reference to the badge in Germany.[6]

There were also attempts to enforce the wearing of full-length robes, which in late 14th century Rome were supposed to be red. In Portugal a red star of David was used.[16]

Enforcement of the rules was variable; in Marseilles the magistrates ignored accusations of breaches, and in some places individuals or communities could buy exemption. Cathars who were considered "first time offenders" by the Catholic Church and the Inquisition were also forced to wear yellow badges, albeit in the form of crosses, about their person.
=======================================
Nazi Germany and Axis Powers

After the German invasion of Poland in 1939 there were initially different local decrees requiring Jews to wear a distinctive sign under the General Government. The sign was a white armband with a blue Star of David on it; in the Warthegau a yellow badge in the form of a Star of David on the left side of the breast and on the back.[19] The requirement to wear the Star of David with the word Jude (German for Jew) – inscribed in letters meant to resemble Hebrew writing – was then extended to all Jews over the age of six in the Reich and the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (by a decree issued on September 1, 1941, signed by Reinhard Heydrich)[20][21] and was gradually introduced in other German-occupied areas, where local words were used (e.g., Juif in French, Jood in Dutch).

One observer reported that the star increased German non-Nazi sympathy for Jews as the impoverished citizens who wore them were, contrary to Nazi propaganda, obviously not the cause of German failure in the east. In the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, government had to ban hat tipping toward Jews and other courtesies that became popular as protests against the German occupation. A whispering campaign that claimed that the action was in response to the United States government requiring German Americans to wear swastikas was unsuccessful.[22]

Douggg said:

The Antichrist role is someone who the Jews will mistakenly believe is their messiah, and the person will be anointed the King of Israel (although not approved by God to be their king). It only lasts until he betrays them, and claims to have achieved God-hood.

Click to expand...

Folks don't listen to Douggg and his false teachings. The bible does says Jesus will be made King of Israel, not a false messiah Douggg keeps promoting. Here's one of many verses.


This happens at a time when Israel will dwell safely and He (Jesus) will save Judah. The Jews will crown Jesus as their Messiah.

Douggg, you still have't provided evidence from the bible yet. Where's your proof of a false Jewish Messiah (antichrist)?

Seville90210 said:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Click to expand...

Adonai Tsidkenu

Seville90210 said:

This happens at a time when Israel will dwell safely and He (Jesus) will save Judah. The Jews will crown Jesus as their Messiah.

Click to expand...

Your post #97 is correct, excepting for this statement.

Jesus is our Christian Lord, the Jews have rejected Him and they face a judgment/punishment that will leave only a remnant; the few thousand Messianic Jews, who will join with their Christian brethren. Romans 9:27, Jeremiah 50:4-5

keras said:

Jesus is our Christian Lord,

Click to expand...

Yeshua is our JEWISH Messiah...gentiles are grafted in. Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Romans 11