Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation.

bcbsr said:

Equation?
Saving Faith results in Salvation + Works

Don't confuse the condition to be saved with the conditions of the saved.

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There is nothing to confuse. The Bible plainly teaches that we need to obey as a part of eternal life (See Luke 10:25-28) (Matthew 19:17-19) (1 John 3:10) (1 John 3:15).

bcbsr said:

Apparently you don't hear what Jesus is saying there. Jesus is saying that upon coming to faith one's salvation status is finalized as if they had already passed from death to life. In contrast in your soteriology you view Jesus as putting people on the starting line, their Final salvation being determined based on their performance.

So where does the expression "he has passed from death to life" translate to in your soteriology?

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No, that is not what Jesus is saying in John 8:47. Jesus is talking about how the Jews had did the works of their father the devil (John 8:44). They did not understand Jesus's speech as a result of their sin (John 8:43). Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Just like the Jews did not know nothing because they did not agree with his words and the doctrine according to godliness because they did the lusts of their father the devil.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

bcbsr said:

How many times must I repeat myself. "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9 Clear enough?

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So then what is the Prodigal Son about?
What is the meaning behind the words "dead" and "alive again" mentioned by the father when his son came back home and was seeking forgiveness with his father?

You said:

Typically we walk in light of the gospel of grace. We do what is right because it's the right thing to do. That as opposed to those walking in the darkness of a salvation by works soteriology, who do works in order to save themselves from hell, and consequently don't have the hope we have. We find Jesus' commands not burdensome because everyone born of God overcomes the world by faith.

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Have you even done a study on the commands of Jesus Christ and His followers?

Anyways, the Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Typically, you say you do what's right because it is the right thing to do. But what does "typically" look like? What about the untypical examples? Is there any scenario for a believer who can slip up into a horrible sin like say inappropriate content, or lying, or cussing, etc. with them still being saved while they do these kinds of sins for a brief amount of time? What happens when they do these sins? Do they lose their salvation? How often do they do these kinds of sins? I have heard OSAS Proponents use 1 John 1:8 to say that they will always commit some kind of grievous sin (like lying, hating, coveting, etc.) in this life. What is your interpretation on 1 John 1:8? Do you believe that you will always sin as a matter of fact at some point in your life again?

You said:

But that's what you're saying of your own soteriology regarding your arbitrary category of so called "non-grevious" sins. So how under your soteriology that one can sin and not lose their salvation? Take for example "love your neighbor as yourself". Sin is falling short of God's perfect standard. So how can one measure whether one has lived up to that 100% or sinned by falling short. A person may not even be aware of it. According to your own standards your preaching license.

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There is a sin not unto death (1 John 5:17). So not all sin is the same as you suggest.

You said:

That statement is a contradiction. You can't "abide for a short time". It's contrary to the Biblical concept of abiding. It wouldn't be abiding if it's for a short time.

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It is illogical. Abide can mean to be inside a place, person, or thing.
I abided in the shower for 30 seconds. Does that mean I was not abiding in the shower? No.

bcbsr said:

You admit that that's what YOU would do. Apparently you can't imagine doing anything good without being threatened with eternal damnation in hell fire if you failed. Not the case for those of use who ACTUALLY BELIEVE the gospel of grace. But that's what you would do. You are not us.

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Do you not believe that a saint will always commit some kind of grievous sin until the day they die as per 1 John 1:8?

bcbsr said:

You admit that that's what YOU would do. Apparently you can't imagine doing anything good without being threatened with eternal damnation in hell fire if you failed. Not the case for those of use who ACTUALLY BELIEVE the gospel of grace. But that's what you would do. You are not us.

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bcbsr said:

Not a single one of those verses says that you have to do works in order to be saved. So there! As I've pointed out previously in my thread on How Salvation by Works Christians Misconstrue Scripture, you making the typical errors, inappropriately adding "in order to be saved" to commands, confusing cause and effect.

Don't confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved.

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But you have to explain the verses I put forth in order for you to be correct. Just saying so (without any explanation) does not prove that you are right, dear sir.

bcbsr said:

But you're going beyond the idea of Cause and Effect being related. What you do is misconstrue the nature of that relationship, making the effect to be the cause of salvation, which ends up as salvation by works, of you've freely admitted to.

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Not at all. Flood rains can produce a pool of flood water (that comes from the flood rains).
The Lord is the source of salvation (1 John 5:12). We abide in Christ, and good fruit will be there, but we are not rag dolls thrown about to do God's will. While we are born again and given a new nature, our free will is not cut out of us. It's why a believer has the capacity to sin or to resist temptation.

As for my view of salvation: I believe the salvation equation is not "salvation by works" alone. I believe the salvation equation is: "Faith in God's grace (Jesus) + Works of Faith (God working in us) = Salvation."

bcbsr said:

Making false claims about bible verses doesn't make you right. I've already spoken to the errors you made.

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Did you provide explanations to them within this thread or another one?
If they are explained in another one, then you should have provided post #'s.

bcbsr said:

The Luke 10 and Mt 17 passages are referring to justification by the law (Old Covenant). Jesus is using the law to make them conscious of their sin as it is written, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." Rom 3:20 So in this case your error is confusing Old Covenant with New. As for the 1John verses you're confusing cause with effect. They're talking about how to IDENTIFY children of God. They're not talking about how one becomes a child of God.

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No. Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their Israelite people and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught in a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

bcbsr said:

The Luke 10 and Mt 17 passages are referring to justification by the law (Old Covenant). Jesus is using the law to make them conscious of their sin as it is written, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." Rom 3:20 So in this case your error is confusing Old Covenant with New. As for the 1John verses you're confusing cause with effect. They're talking about how to IDENTIFY children of God. They're not talking about how one becomes a child of God.

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The end of chapter 10 for Luke 10:25-28 does not conclude with the futility of keeping God's laws. The end of chapter 19 for Matthew 19:17-19 does not conclude with the futility of keeping God's laws, either. Read the end of those chapters and you will see it has an entirely different message than what you think. Also, the truth taught in Luke 10:25-28 and Matthew 19:17-19 is taught by the apostle John. For the apostle John says that if one hates their brother (the opposite of loving your neighbor) means that no eternal life abides in them (1 John 3:15).

John writes in Revelation,
14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15).

Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

For why would Jesus give us new teachings just so that they could be radically altered or changed later after the cross by the apostle Paul so quickly? It makes no sense.

James 1:12 says,
"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

We must endure temptation, just as Christ did.

bcbsr said:

The Luke 10 and Mt 17 passages are referring to justification by the law (Old Covenant). Jesus is using the law to make them conscious of their sin as it is written, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." Rom 3:20 So in this case your error is confusing Old Covenant with New. As for the 1John verses you're confusing cause with effect. They're talking about how to IDENTIFY children of God. They're not talking about how one becomes a child of God.

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Yes, it is true that Jesus referred to the Old Testament Scriptures (that contained the Old Law) with the lawyer in Luke 10:25-28. But Jesus was using the core foundation of the Old Law (Love God & Love your neighbor) as a spring board for His New Covenant teachings. We know Jesus was NOT teaching purely Old Covenant because He was making changes to the Old Law (See again the verses in: Post #135).

The death of Jesus began the New Covenant officially.
The commandments to love God, and to love your neighbor has not changed in the New Covenant; For the apostle John said after the cross:

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." (1 John 2:5).

John was referring to the keeping of the words of Jesus.
So John is saying that whoever keeps the Lord's words, the love of God (i.e. Loving the Lord your God, which is the greatest commandment) is perfected within them.

Is loving God still a salvation issue according to John?

Yes.

John says,
"He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." (1 John 4:8).

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (1 John 4:20).

So John is still teaching after the cross the command to love God and to love your neighbor.

John says in Revelation 21:8 that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

The person who does not love does not know God. For God is love.
A person cannot be saved without knowing or abiding in God.
Jesus is God (John 1:1-4, John 1:14).

1 John 5:12 says that he who has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life. So we need to abide in Christ and know Him to have eternal life.

We need to love in order to say that we know God (Jesus). For God is love.

1 John 3:15 says that if we hate our brother, no eternal life abides in us.
Hating your brother is the opposite of loving your brother.

So the two greatest commandments as taught by Jesus in Luke 10:25-28 are still in effect today. Jesus said He came not to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). This means, He did not come to destroy the entirety of the Old Law, but to fulfill it with His New Covenant teachings.

The apostle John says,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." (1 John 5:3).

You apparently are in disagreement with John that we have to keep the commandments of the Lord as a part of loving God. For John says this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. The commandments by what person? The Lord's commandments. To love God and to love your neighbor. This is confirmed in the fact that John taught to love God and to love your brother (neighbor) and that by doing so is a part of eternal life.

bcbsr said:

The Luke 10 and Mt 17 passages are referring to justification by the law (Old Covenant). Jesus is using the law to make them conscious of their sin as it is written, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." Rom 3:20 So in this case your error is confusing Old Covenant with New. As for the 1John verses you're confusing cause with effect. They're talking about how to IDENTIFY children of God. They're not talking about how one becomes a child of God.

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Romans 3:20 says,
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

Paul is talking about being justified by Law Alone according to the Old Law given to Israel.
Paul is not referring to the teachings of Jesus (Who made changes to the Old Law).
Paul is saying you cannot be saved by LAW ALONE without God's grace.
This is why Paul says in Romans 10:13,

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

A person cannot be justified or saved by observing the deeds of the Law alone without first being forgiven by Jesus Christ. That is what Paul is saying. Paul is not referring to the necessity of Sanctification that comes after being saved by God's grace through faith (Which is the Justification Process).

The Pharisees during that time had a hard time in seeking forgiveness with the Lord and they made salvation all about "Law Alone." One example of this is with the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. For the pharisee was not humbling himself so as to call upon the name of the Lord over his own sins like the tax collector did (See Luke 18:9-14). The pharisees during that time ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).