ICR Acts and Facts

nolidad said:

Well that is just your opinion to buttress your opinion!

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This sentence caused me physical pain.

But ostriches and hummingbirds are both true birds

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As opposed to being fake birds?

But using modern taxonomical terms- man is the kind homo and ape is the kind hominidae or even Pan, or pongid.

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Humans and apes have far more in common than an ostrich and a hummingbird, though. So how can one be the same kind while the other isn’t?

And apes and humans are not the same kind!

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This is nothing but a base assertion.

chimps and orangutans, and rhesis and apes etc? maybe or maybe not. First no one can definitely say which types were there for the flood.

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You seemed to know well enough to classify all birds as the same kind. I get the impression you’re just making stuff up.

Humans and the other great apes share similar anatomy and DNA .Hummingbirds and ostrich not much . I’d like to know that too. why you’d classify these birds as being the same kind but separate the great apes from humans

lasthero said:

This sentence caused me physical pain.

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Well then take two aspirin. You will feel better soon!

lasthero said:

As opposed to being fake birds?

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Wow! Going back to third grade mentality does you nit well. No as oppossed to not being the same kind! they are both birds. but you knew that, and I suspect just wanted to fling a barb.

lasthero said:

Humans and apes have far more in common than an ostrich and a hummingbird, though. So how can one be the same kind while the other isn’t?

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Empirical science would show you not! We may look more similar- but are more different where it counts.

lasthero said:

This is nothing but a base assertion.

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And your assertion is a false assertion. We can take any part of a human and the exact same part of any ape like creature, put them under a microscope and the trained can tell the diiference. IOW they can say this hair, or muscle or piece of organ is form man or from ape! There is that much difference!

lasthero said:

You seemed to know well enough to classify all birds as the same kind. I get the impression you’re just making stuff up.

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Well I will freeely admit that hummingbirds may have been the clean kind of bird and ostriches the not clean- there are ass8mptions as Noah fdid not leave a detailed list of how deep into genus a kind went.

Brightmoon said:

Humans and the other great apes share similar anatomy and DNA .Hummingbirds and ostrich not much . I’d like to know that too. why you’d classify these birds as being the same kind but separate the great apes from humans

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Well as I concluded with last hero that humming birds may have been biblically two different "kinds" of birds, or they may have not.

But man is man and ape is ape. 75-80% genetic similarity does not an ancestor make, unless you are preindoctrinated to think that way!

But even if we were 98.4% identical as is falsely touted and clung to despite the empirical research proving otherwise, just by the sheer randsomness of mutations one would expect to see a monkey kman born or a manlike ape born!

But even where they say we are dientical. The results of those "identical"genes always produce a qualitatively different result in each seperate family!

Tissue is different, hair is different, organs are different etc.etc.etc.

Jimmy D said:

I've always thought that kind simply means sort or type, I don't think it's really meant as a specific category, as YECs often argue, just this kind of animal, that sort of animal etc.

There are even different kinds of cattle, which can breed together....

Lev. 19:19
“You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall there come upon you a garment of cloth made of two ....."

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Well we do believe they are specific categories,we just can't precisely define the boundaries. Definitely bigger than species, it is a genus and may go to family- but no further.

Well the Mosaic Laws were not specific scientific statements. They8 were given to Israel so that Israel would be a separate and different people! I cannot say this with certainty- but I suspect the cross breeding and cross fabrics was prohibited because it was a type to show that He wanted His people pure and without contamination. the same was true for marriage. Only a Jew could marry a Jew!

Jimmy D said:

I've always thought that kind simply means sort or type, I don't think it's really meant as a specific category, as YECs often argue, just this kind of animal, that sort of animal etc.

There are even different kinds of cattle, which can breed together....

Lev. 19:19
“You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with a different kind; you shall not sow your field with two kinds of seed; nor shall there come upon you a garment of cloth made of two ....."

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Now whether Israel could cross breed "clean cows" I do not know. I do know that when they were obedient to God- they sought to be very punctilious to the point of absurdity at times to follow every jot and tittle of the law.

nolidad said:

Well as I concluded with last hero that humming birds may have been biblically two different "kinds" of birds, or they may have not.

But man is man and ape is ape. 75-80% genetic similarity does not an ancestor make, unless you are preindoctrinated to think that way!

But even if we were 98.4% identical as is falsely touted and clung to despite the empirical research proving otherwise, just by the sheer randsomness of mutations one would expect to see a monkey kman born or a manlike ape born!

But even where they say we are dientical. The results of those "identical"genes always produce a qualitatively different result in each seperate family!

Tissue is different, hair is different, organs are different etc.etc.etc.

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. Since your understanding of what evolution is and is not is deeply flawed , it’s not scientists that need to change their minds . Strawman pseudoscience claims don’t refute either scientific facts or theories

nolidad said:

Wow! Going back to third grade mentality does you nit well. No as oppossed to not being the same kind! they are both birds. but you knew that, and I suspect just wanted to fling a barb.

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I know they're birds. What confused me was you calling them 'true' birds, which would imply that there's some distinct between them and fake, non-birds. No offense, but you have a very sloppy way of writing.

Empirical science would show you not! We may look more similar- but are more different where it counts.

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Empirical science would show that we have far more in common with apes than ostriches do with hummingbirds, yet you label ostriches and hummingbirds the same kind.

And your assertion is a false assertion. We can take any part of a human and the exact same part of any ape like creature, put them under a microscope and the trained can tell the diiference. IOW they can say this hair, or muscle or piece of organ is form man or from ape! There is that much difference!

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That's probably not true, but regardless, it's besides the point. I think it's safe to say there's not a single bone on a hummingbird that anyone with even one working eye would ever confuse with a bone from an ostrich. Heck, most of an ostrich's bones are probably bigger than a hummingbird. Yet you say they're the same kind. Again, your logic isn't consistent.

Well I will freeely admit that hummingbirds may have been the clean kind of bird and ostriches the not clean- there are ass8mptions as Noah fdid not leave a detailed list of how deep into genus a kind went.

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That's not what you before. You said that all birds were the same kind. I'm merely asking you to explain your logic, and I'm strongly starting to suspect you never had any behind that assertion in the first place.

I'll ask for what I think is the third time - what is a kind? How do you determine what is and is not a kind? How can you say that all birds are the same kind, but not say that humans and apes, which have far more in common that many bird species do with each other, are?

nolidad said:

Well as I concluded with last hero that humming birds may have been biblically two different "kinds" of birds, or they may have not.

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So when you said that all birds were the same kind, you were just making stuff up?

But man is man and ape is ape. 75-80% genetic similarity does not an ancestor make, unless you are preindoctrinated to think that way!

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Where did you get that figure from?

But even if we were 98.4% identical as is falsely touted and clung to despite the empirical research proving otherwise, just by the sheer randsomness of mutations one would expect to see a monkey kman born or a manlike ape born!

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No, we wouldn't expect to see this. That you think we would shows you have a poor understanding of not only evolution, but also how reproduction works.

But even where they say we are dientical.

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No scientist has ever said we're 'identical'. If we were identical, we'd be the exact same things. Dogs and wolves aren't 'identical'. You're not 'identical' to your parents.

Tissue is different, hair is different, organs are different etc.etc.etc.

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I'm seeing a lot of claims and not a lot of evidence.

lasthero said:

So when you said that all birds were the same kind, you were just making stuff up?

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Nope. All birds belong to the bird kind! The only positive difference that can be made is between teh clean bird and the unclean bird kinds! But whther God made a difference in teh bird kind- is not clear. Most YEC think not, but we are not dogmatic like the believers of evolutionism are about things they cannot really know.

lasthero said:

Where did you get that figure from?

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Here are some of the reporting with footnotes.

Chimp DNA Mutation Study—Selective Yet Surprising

Human-Chimp Similarities: Common Ancestry or Flawed Research?

Human-Chimp DNA Comparison

There are more and even research papers available.

lasthero said:

No, we wouldn't expect to see this. That you think we would shows you have a poor understanding of not only evolution, but also how reproduction works.

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Well they say our embryonic development is a diorama of our evolution! People are born with non functioning "tails", we are alleged to be 99% similar to apes so if we are that close to apes geneticaslly- that is not a large leap to see a mutation give a human ape like features. After all mutationsa are random and they should go backwards as well as forward as well as sideways!

lasthero said:

No scientist has ever said we're 'identical'. If we were identical, we'd be the exact same things. Dogs and wolves aren't 'identical'. You're not 'identical' to your parents.

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How similar are humans to apes?
"This will allow us to look for the genetic basis of what makes modern humansdifferent from both bonobos and chimpanzees." Ever since researchers sequenced the chimp genome in 2005, they have known that humans share about 99% of ourDNA with chimpanzees, making them our closest living relatives

Bonobos Join Chimps as Closest Human Relatives | Science | AAAS

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/.../bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives
These scientists say different They say8 we share 99% of the same DNA!

lasthero said:

I'm seeing a lot of claims and not a lot of evidence.

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Well just go to a forensic pathologist and ask them if they can tell the difference between hairs of different genus.

Also if given tissue samples they can tell teh difference between dog, cat, human and ape tissue samples.

nolidad said:

Nope. All birds belong to the bird kind! The only positive difference that can be made is between teh clean bird and the unclean bird kinds! But whther God made a difference in teh bird kind- is not clear. Most YEC think not, but we are not dogmatic like the believers of evolutionism are about things they cannot really know.

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So, again, how can a hummingbird and an ostrich be the same kind, when a human and an ape aren’t, even though humans and apes are far more similar?

Maybe the human thing is your hangup. I assume you don’t think dogs and cats aren’t same kind. Why not? They have more in common than a hummingbird and an ostrich.

Here are some of the reporting with footnotes.

Chimp DNA Mutation Study—Selective Yet Surprising

Human-Chimp Similarities: Common Ancestry or Flawed Research?

Human-Chimp DNA Comparison

There are more and even research papers available.

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I’ll read these later. Could you quote where they state that figure?

Well they say our embryonic development is a diorama of our evolution! People are born with non functioning "tails", we are alleged to be 99% similar to apes so if we are that close to apes geneticaslly- that is not a large leap to see a mutation give a human ape like features. After all mutationsa are random and they should go backwards as well as forward as well as sideways!




How similar are humans to apes?
"This will allow us to look for the genetic basis of what makes modern humansdifferent from both bonobos and chimpanzees." Ever since researchers sequenced the chimp genome in 2005, they have known that humans share about 99% of ourDNA with chimpanzees, making them our closest living relatives

Bonobos Join Chimps as Closest Human Relatives | Science | AAAS

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/.../bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives
These scientists say different They say8 we share 99% of the same DNA!

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I’m not seeing the word ‘identical’. Do you understand what that word means? It’s not the same as ‘similar’. I bear a strong resemblance to my brother, but we’re not identical.

Well just go to a forensic pathologist and ask them if they can tell the difference between hairs of different genus.

Also if given tissue samples they can tell teh difference between dog, cat, human and ape tissue samples.

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I’m sure they can, but that’s besides the point. Human bones are certainly more similar to ape bones than an hummingbird and an ostrich. Cats and dogs have similar bones, too. You say they’re not the same kind, but hummingbirds and ostriches are.

Four time - what is a ‘kind’? A definition, please. If you don’t have one, you have no basis to say humans and apes aren’t the same kind. You can’t exclude something from a definition if you don’t even know what the definition is.

nolidad said:

Nope. All birds belong to the bird kind! The only positive difference that can be made is between teh clean bird and the unclean bird kinds! But whther God made a difference in teh bird kind- is not clear. Most YEC think not, but we are not dogmatic like the believers of evolutionism are about things they cannot really know.



Here are some of the reporting with footnotes.

Chimp DNA Mutation Study—Selective Yet Surprising

Human-Chimp Similarities: Common Ancestry or Flawed Research?

Human-Chimp DNA Comparison

There are more and even research papers available.



Well they say our embryonic development is a diorama of our evolution! People are born with non functioning "tails", we are alleged to be 99% similar to apes so if we are that close to apes geneticaslly- that is not a large leap to see a mutation give a human ape like features. After all mutationsa are random and they should go backwards as well as forward as well as sideways!




How similar are humans to apes?
"This will allow us to look for the genetic basis of what makes modern humansdifferent from both bonobos and chimpanzees." Ever since researchers sequenced the chimp genome in 2005, they have known that humans share about 99% of ourDNA with chimpanzees, making them our closest living relatives

Bonobos Join Chimps as Closest Human Relatives | Science | AAAS

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/.../bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives
These scientists say different They say8 we share 99% of the same DNA!



Well just go to a forensic pathologist and ask them if they can tell the difference between hairs of different genus.

Also if given tissue samples they can tell teh difference between dog, cat, human and ape tissue samples.

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Apes are not identical to monkeys.

Humans are apes by definition, thats a fact.

You use terms incorrectly in nearly all your posts.

nolidad said:

Nope. All birds belong to the bird kind! The only positive difference that can be made is between teh clean bird and the unclean bird kinds! But whther God made a difference in teh bird kind- is not clear.

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Where are you getting this from? Nowhere does the bible say that all birds are the same kind. Genesis 7:14 states "They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings". It is easy to see that "every bird according to its kind" just groups different birds in the kind to which that particular bird belong. Similarly for other animals - or do you really mean that "every wild animal" all belong to the same kind?

Herman Hedning said:

Where are you getting this from? Nowhere does the bible say that all birds are the same kind. Genesis 7:14 states "They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings". It is easy to see that "every bird according to its kind" just groups different birds in the kind to which that particular bird belong. Similarly for other animals - or do you really mean that "every wild animal" all belong to the same kind?

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There are only two constraints governing "kinds."
1. There can't be so many that they all wouldn't fit on a 500-foot boat.
2. There can't be so few that humans can't have their own.

Herman Hedning said:

Where are you getting this from? Nowhere does the bible say that all birds are the same kind. Genesis 7:14 states "They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings". It is easy to see that "every bird according to its kind" just groups different birds in the kind to which that particular bird belong. Similarly for other animals - or do you really mean that "every wild animal" all belong to the same kind?

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No but in Gen. 7 when speaking of birds: "14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort."

Fowl is bird and kind is minh which means genus or family.

Bird is tsippowr and means bird as well! and sort there is kanaph which is wing!

So there may have been a sortation of flying birds and non flying birds like ostriches, emus, kiwis penguins, chickens and turkeys (short flyers) No one can be absolutely sure. He is loading the ark and God is sending Noah all the animals!

Speedwell said:

There are only two constraints governing "kinds."
1. There can't be so many that they all wouldn't fit on a 500-foot boat.
2. There can't be so few that humans can't have their own.

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Trtue to a point. Now whether tigers and lions and cheetahs and panthers are all one kind- seems probable but we cannot say absolute. We only do know that thanks to Mendel, Gods probably handpicked animals that would be able to reproduce great variation after the flood!

lasthero said:

So, again, how can a hummingbird and an ostrich be the same kind, when a human and an ape aren’t, even though humans and apes are far more similar?

Maybe the human thing is your hangup. I assume you don’t think dogs and cats aren’t same kind. Why not? They have more in common than a hummingbird and an ostrich.

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Can't tell you and I also don't know if hummingbirds and ostriches are the same kind for loading on the ark. for feathered fowl we see two divisions that are not elaborated on. I would suspect once they git around to listing the genomes of hummingbirds and ostriches they will be more similar than man and ape! Man and ape at the most optimistic now is 85% and others go as far as 75% bassed on looking at far longer pieces of DNA and not just the cherry8 picked strands that look similar!

lasthero said:

I’ll read these later. Could you quote where they state that figure?

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A different paper from ICR that is more detailed:

TECHNICAL PAPERS TECHNICAL PAPERS
New Research Evaluating Similarities Between Human and Chimpanzee DNA
BY JEFFREY P. TOMKINS, PH.D. | THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 2013

Download New Research Evaluating Similarities Between Human and Chimpanzee DNA PDF

In M. Horstemeyer, ed., 2013, Proceedings of the Seventh International Conference on Creationism, Pittsburgh, PA: Creation Science Fellowship. Visit the ICC at www.creationicc.org.

Abstract
A preliminary study was performed by Tomkins comparing 40,000 chimpanzee genomic sequences against the human genome which indicated that reported levels of human-chimp DNA similarity were significantly lower than commonly reported. The present, follow-up study was then completed in which chimp chromosomes were sliced into new individual query files of varying string lengths and queried against their human chromosome homolog. This allowed for comparisons to be optimized irrespective of the linear order of genes and sequence features. The definition of similarity was the amount (percent) of optimally aligned chimp DNA. For the chimp autosomes, the amount of optimally aligned DNA sequence provided similarities between 66 and 76 percent, depending on the chromosome. Only 69 percent of the chimpanzee X chromosome was similar to human and only 43 percent of the Y chromosome. Genome-wide, only 70% of the chimpanzee DNA was similar to human under the most optimal alignment conditions. While, chimpanzees and humans share many localized protein-coding regions of high similarity, the overall extreme discontinuity between the two genomes defies evolutionary time-scales and dogmatic presuppositions about a common ancestor.

lasthero said:

I’m sure they can, but that’s besides the point. Human bones are certainly more similar to ape bones than an hummingbird and an ostrich. Cats and dogs have similar bones, too. You say they’re not the same kind, but hummingbirds and ostriches are.

Four time - what is a ‘kind’? A definition, please. If you don’t have one, you have no basis to say humans and apes aren’t the same kind. You can’t exclude something from a definition if you don’t even know what the definition is.

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Well I cannot be as specific as the arbitrary terms evolutionary scientists made like species, genus, family etc. God di not write a white paper to tell us exactly what He meant. the best I can offer is genus of family---maybe, MAYBE on rare occasions it could be spaces but no one is sure. Best I can do!

Well given the arbitrary classifying (like bipedalism) we can relate anything to anytrhing depending on the criteria we are using to put them together.

But since we have been studying geneticsd we know apes are far different than men! We share many similar design- but once again similar design for similar purpose- different design for different purpose.
A minicooper is very similar to a huge SUV in many categories, buyt they are also vastly different as well.

VirOptimus said:

Apes are not identical to monkeys.

Humans are apes by definition, thats a fact.

You use terms incorrectly in nearly all your posts.

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No human are apes because somebody decided to arbitrarily created a classification called hominidae for those with hands and feet and forward looking eyes! We have similar features that are qulaitatively different and similar design does not mean common descent except for those with an evolutionary indoctrination.

nolidad said:

No human are apes because somebody decided to arbitrarily created a classification called hominidae for those with hands and feet and forward looking eyes! We have similar features that are qulaitatively different and similar design does not mean common descent except for those with an evolutionary indoctrination.

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Uh no. Common descent is very well supported by data and facts.

Saying otherwise is ignorant.

nolidad said:

No human are apes because somebody decided to arbitrarily created a classification called hominidae for those with hands and feet and forward looking eyes! We have similar features that are qulaitatively different and similar design does not mean common descent except for those with an evolutionary indoctrination.

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It is consistent with common ancestry and taken with genetic and other evidence there is no reason not to regard it as plausible.