Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Phil W said:

It isn't "my view".
It is the words in the bible.

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Here are some words in the Bible: "He who says he has no sin, deceives himself and the truth is not in him". John wrote this to Christian believers.

First, Paul speaks in Romans 7 about himself, and if we are to believe scripture, which states quite clearly that Paul was a chosen instrument of God, then his personal experience is of great value. I have used bold to bring attention to some of the language.

Romans 7:14-25 NASB

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

Wretched man that I am!

Who will set me free from the body of this death?

Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

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Later on in Romans 10 he attempts to humble the reader by speaking about those that seek to establish their righteousness before others, even if the evidence of such righteousness is absent from them, (as it rightfully should be, for no man is, nor ever will be again, perfect, except Christ.)

Romans 10:1-13 NASB

Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

For Moses writes that the man who practices righteousness which is based on the law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows:

"DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

But what does it say?

"THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"-that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the scripture says,

"WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on him; for

"WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

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These are such important teachings, especially to me. For it should be a humbling experience to read them. The war between the Holy Spirit and the Flesh is part and parcel of the Christian experience. This is the argument that is made in many places in the Gospel. If willful sin is the only measure by which our righteousness is based, and not our Faith in God, then why did Christ die? He died for the forgiveness of our sins, that all who might believe in Him, would have everlasting life.

Now this doesn't mean that Christians can use this as an excuse to go out in the world and sin and get off free and willy nilly. For such an action is tempting the Lord. The Old Testament hammers this idea home, that the righteous man (those who have saving Faith) meditate and delight in the commandments of God.

"All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything." (1 Cor 6:12)

and again,

"All things are lawful, but not all things profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify." (1 Cor 10:23)

One of the key markers of the saving Grace of God upon a believer is the grieving of their sin, not the absence of sin itself.

bcbsr said:

Seeing as "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9, they profess falsely of being a Christian if they continue to live in sin, because those born of God are incapable of such behavior.

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Indeed ! Only problem with your message here is that God's WORD WARNS us that we can GRIEVE and EXTINGUISH (put out) God's Spirit if we choose as BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS do not CONTINUE to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD and return to a life of sin...

JOHN 8:31-36
[31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD , THEN ARE YOU MY DISCIPLES INDEED;
[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
[33], They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how say you, You shall be made free?
[34], Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Whoever commits sin is the servant of sin.
[35], And the servant stays not in the house for ever: but the Son stays ever.
[36], If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed.

Notice here that these promises are condtional on CONTINUING to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word; Those who continue in God's WORD have the promises of

1. KNOWING GOD'S TRUTH v32
2. FAITH IN THE TRUTH MAKING THEM FREE v32
3. FREEDOM IS FROM SIN NOT TO CONTINUE IN SIN v34-36

Where is the scripture that says a born again christian cannot fall away from the faith and no longer believe and follow Gods Word? Yet the scriptures in God's WORD clearly teach that those who have received God's Spirit can indeed fall away and grieve the Spirit of God as demonstrated in HEBREWS 6:4-8...

HEBREWS 6:4-8
[4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS? The question your considering is; were these BELIEVERS and Born again christians. Lets look at the key points in these that describe who there people were from the scriptures...

1. They were once enlightened; v4
2. Having tasted of the Heavenly gift; v4
3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; v4
4. Having tasted of the good Word of God; v5
5. Having tasted of the power of the world to come v5

So reviewing the CONTEXT of these scriptures we don't really need to say much they speak for themselves. These people were BELIEVERS that departed from GOD and became "UNBELIEVERS" returning back to a life of sin. These people are BELIEVERS as shown in the CONTEXT of v4-5 which continues...

[6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Yep, BELIEVERS having fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin..

[7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
[8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Yep thier end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6). These scripture are pretty rock solid I think and show that a BELIEVER can FALL AWAY back into SIN.

Similar theme and warnings also given through HEBREWS 3 on no believing God's WORD and falling back into a life of sin...

HEBREWS 3:7-19 [7], Why (as the Holy Ghost said, To day if you will hear his voice, [8], Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9], When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.[10], Why I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. [11], So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest. [12], TAKE HEED BRETHEREN LEST THERE BE IN ANY OF YOU AN EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.[13], But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the FALLING AWAY comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

HEBREWS 10:26-31
26, FOR IT WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
27, BUT A FEARFUL LOOKING FORWARD FOR OF JUDGEMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
28, He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29, OF HOW MUCH MORE SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED AN UNHOLY THING AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
30, For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31, IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

GALATIANS 1:6
[6] I marvel that you are TURNING AWAY SO SOON from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, TO A DIFFERENT GOSPEL.

ACTS 20:28-31
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, TO DRAW AWAY DISCIPLES AFTER THEMSELVES. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

HEBREWS 2:1-3
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, LEST WE DRIFT AWAY. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

HEBREWS 10:35-38
[35], CAST NOT AWAY THEREFORE YOUR CONFIDENCE, which has great recompense of reward. [36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise. [37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [38], Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN SHALL DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Seems both PAUL and PETER agree together that you can KNOW GOd have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

ISAIAH 59:1-3
1, Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2, BUT YOUR INIQUITIES HAVE SEPARATED BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR GOD, AND YOUR SINS HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU THAT HE WILL NOT HEAR.
3, For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with SIN; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness.

Seems Isaiah agrees with Peter and Paul that SIN can separate us from GOD.

EZEKIEL 3:17-21
[17], Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
[18], When I say to the wicked, You shall surely die; and you give him not warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at your hand.
[19], Yet if you warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
[20], AGAIN, WHEN A RIGHTEOUS MAN DOES TURN FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMIT INIQUITY, AND I LAY A STUMBLING BLOCK BEFORE HIM, HE SHALL DIE IN HIS SIN, AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH HE HAS DONE SHALL NOT BE REMEMBERED; but his blood I will require from your hand.
[21], Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also you have delivered your soul.

Well there we have it Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOSHUA 23:11-13
[11], Take good heed therefore to yourselves, that you love the LORD your God.
[12], ELSE IF YOU IN ANY WISE GO BACK TO JOIN TO THE REMNANNT OF THESE NATIONS, EVEN THESE THAT REMAIN AMONG YOU AND SHALL MAKE MARRIAGES WITH THEM AND GO IN UNTO THEM AND THEY TO YOU:
[13], KNOW FOR A CERTAINTY THAT THE LORD YOUR GOD WILL NO MORE DRIVE OUT THESE NATIONS FROM BEFORE YOU.; but they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from off this good land which the LORD your God has given you.

Now Joshua is joining Ezekial, Isaiah Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

NUMBERS 14:43
[43], For there the Amalekites and the Canaanites are facing you, and you shall fall by the sword. BECAUSE YOU HAVE TURNED BACK FROM FOLLOWING THE LORD, the Lord will not be with you.”

Now you can also add Moses to Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JAMES 5:19
[19], My brothers, IF ANY AMONG YOU WANDERS FROM THE TRUTH AND SOMEONE BRINGS HIM BACK, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

2 PETER 2:20-22
[20], FOR IF THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, THEY ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED THEREIN AND OVERCOME, THE LATTER END IS WORSE THEN THE BEGGINING.
[21], FOR IT HAD BEEN BETTER FOR THEN NOT TO HAVE KNOWN THE WAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAN, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN FROM THE HOLY COMMANDMENT DELIEVERED UNTO THEM.
[22], But it is happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

According to the scriptures above brother PETER is talking about those who BELIEVED God's WORD as they ESCAPED the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the LORD JESUS CHRIST v20. We can then see in v21 That they had known the way of RIGHTEOUSNESS, they ESCAPED the POLLUTIONS of the WORLD...v 20-21. THEY KNEW the way of RIGHTEOUSNESS then TURNED AWAY from it v22.

JEREMIAH 3:8-14
[8], And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
[9], And it came to pass through the lightness of her prostitution, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
[10], And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah has not turned to me with her whole heart, but feignedly, said the LORD.
[11], And the LORD said to me, The backsliding Israel has justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
[12], Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, RETURN FAITHLESS ISRAEL, declares the Lord. I will not look on you in anger, for I am merciful, declares the Lord; I will not be angry forever.
[13], Only acknowledge your iniquity, that you have transgressed against the LORD your God, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every green tree, and you have not obeyed my voice, said the LORD.
[14], TURN O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, said the LORD; for I am married to you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

Looks like we can add Jeremaiah to James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH and fall away back into SIN.

JOEL 2:13
[13], And rend your hearts and not your garments. RETURN TO THE LORD YOUR GOD, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love; and he relents over disaster.

LUKE 8:13
[13], They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.

Well here so far we have Joel, Jeremaiah, James, Moses, Joshua, Ezekial, Isaiah, Peter, Luke and Paul who all agree that you can know God and have a KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH, be BORN AGAIN and RECEIVE God's Spirit and FALL AWAY back into SIN a life of sin and UNBELIEF.

Now all the WARNING above are for who and why? Yep they are written for our admonition (BELIEVERS and FOLLOWERS of God's WORD) upon whom the END of the WORLD has come *1 CORINTHIANS 10:11.

Hope this helps.

bcbsr said:

Those falsely professing faith. "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

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Your scripture has nothing to do with the post and the scriptures you are quoting from...

We GRIEVE God's SPIRIT by SIN *GENESIS 6:5-6; PSALMS 119:158 and not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD *PSALMS 95:10-11; HEBREWS 3:10-11; HEBREWS 3:17-19.

It is ONLY those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END that will be saved *JOHN 8:31-36; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; HEBREWS 3:13-14; HEBREWS 3:6; COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 13:18-23.

According to the scriptures if we are not CONTINUING to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END we can GREIVE God's Spirit and depart from the faith *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

GENESIS 6:5-7 [5], And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART was only EVIL CONTINUALLY. [6], And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and IT GRIEVED HIM AT HIS HEART. [7], And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth

So it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the coming of the Son of man..

The application of EPHESIANS 4:30 is always to BELIEVERS in the "present tense" it does not say believers cannot fall away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. It does not say we cannot quench God's Spirit so that it departs from us.

PSALMS 51:11 Do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take your Holy Spirit from me

1 SAMUEL 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and a distressing Spirit from the Lord troubled him

The Greek Word for sealed is σφραγίζω; sphragizō From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.

God's Spirit is only given to all those who are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense". Those who QUENCH (put out) or GRIEVE God's Spirit through sin and unbelief no longer have God's presence unless they repent and turn back to God through faith to become a BELIEVER and FOLLOWER again (present tense).

God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word of God).

bcbsr said:

The 10 commandments are the Law of Moses of which Paul said, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

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Your in error hear dear brother on a few fronts.

1. God's 10 Commandments are not the law of MOSES *EXODUS 32:16. Your mixing up the MOSAIC BOOK of the law *EXODUS 24:7 from the old COVENANT with God's ETERNAL LAW in the NEW COVENANT that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what SIN is when broken *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11.

2. GALATIANS 3:10-12 is in reference to those who seek their salvation by the works of the law. OBEDIENCE to God's LAW is not how we are saved it is the FRUIT of God's work in us as we BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *JAMES 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *MATTHEW 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50. We are saved by GRACE through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God *EPHESIANS 2:8.

Hope this helps

bcbsr said:

But you've been claiming essentially that you and the rest of us are not presently saved, but rather that ones salvation status will be determined after death based upon ones performance. That's a completely different gospel than what Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

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Your confused here brother. I have never said any such thing. If I have never said any such think why do you pretend that I have? I have only shared Gods' WORD with you that says all of God's promises even the one you quote here from JOHN 5:24 only apply to those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD in the "PRESENT TENSE" If we are not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "PRESENT TENSE" then we are an "UNBELIEVERS" Whatsoever is not of FAITH is sin. No UNBELIEVERS have a part in God's KINGDOM. JAMES says the Devils BELIEVE but do not follow and they will not be saved either will anyone who follows them *JAMES 2:19.

According to God's WORD if we are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "PRESENT TENSE" God's promises are for us. If we were once BELIEVERS and fall away from the truth no longer BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD and fall back into a life of sin we have become "UNBELIEVERS" departing from the living God *HEBREWS 6:4-8; JOHN 8:31-36; HEBREWS 3:7-19; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-4; HEBREWS 10:26-31; GALATIANS 1:6; HEBREWS 2:1-3; HEBREWS 10:35-38; ISAIAH 59:1-3; EZEKIEL 3:17-21; NUMBERS 14:43; JAMES 5:19; 2 PETER 2:20-22; LUKE 8:13 etc...

It is only those who have run the race and finished it, ENDURING TEMPTATION to the END that actually receive ETERNAL LIFE *JAMES 1:12. This is why there is so many WARNINGS in God's WORD to BELIEVERS not to depart from the faith! If we could not depart from the faith there would be NO WARNINGS! Those who ignore God's WARNINGS do so at their own peril. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4.

Hope this helps.

CharismaticLady said:

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

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That is a very strange statement and would fit with his eventually becoming terribly anti-Semitic......... he hated the law of Moses....... so he also hated the people who were attempting to obey it........ He wrote the article "The Jews and their Lies."

CharismaticLady said:

I experienced the Romans 7 struggle when I was a Seventh-day Adventist and was bound by the law. I never felt good enough and hid my guilt. But that was before becoming born again of the Spirit, and experiencing the awesome power of God. Years later I did go through a real stressful period, but during that time, my resolve to obey God just got stronger and stronger - nothing like a Romans 7 experience. And as I said to you before, it was a glorification process as I was already sanctified and set apart when I was born again.

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That gives me greater understanding about the bondage that you were freed from. Your present experience seems more like how Paul resolved his struggle: "I thank God through Jesus Christ my Lord; the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death."

My concentration on Paul's Roman 7 experience is to counter those who think that they can be entirely sanctified and sinlessly perfect by faith, and therefore don't have to do anything more. My view is that genuine obedience requires effort and continually keeping the body under subjection; and we can't do that without the indwelling Holy Spirit to give us the power. But this does not mean that we make no effort to live the holy life and to resist temptation when it comes to us.

If we are genuinely obedient to Christ, we will not go back into a lifestyle of willful sin; but we realise that we still have a sinful flesh that will drag us back into sin if we allow it, causing our obedience to be imperfect. But genuine obedience strives to be more holy and faithful to Christ day by day and to work toward perfection, looking forward to achieving it when we are glorified.

CharismaticLady said:

I experienced the Romans 7 struggle when I was a Seventh-day Adventist and was bound by the law. I never felt good enough and hid my guilt. But that was before becoming born again of the Spirit, and experiencing the awesome power of God. Years later I did go through a real stressful period, but during that time, my resolve to obey God just got stronger and stronger - nothing like a Romans 7 experience. And as I said to you before, it was a glorification process as I was already sanctified and set apart when I was born again.

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It sounds like you did not understand the scriptures during this time. SDA's believe no such thing. The ROMANS 7 experience is what leads us to Christ that we might be forgiven by faith and be set free from sin to walk in newness of life in God's Spirit *ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16. According to God's WORD anyone who is knowingly breaking any one of God's 10 commandments are not walking in God's Spirit neither do they know him *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 2:3-4.

LoveGodsWord said:

Your scripture has nothing to do with the post and the scriptures you are quoting from...

We GRIEVE God's SPIRIT by SIN *GENESIS 6:5-6; PSALMS 119:158 and not BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD *PSALMS 95:10-11; HEBREWS 3:10-11; HEBREWS 3:17-19.

It is ONLY those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END that will be saved *JOHN 8:31-36; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; HEBREWS 3:13-14; HEBREWS 3:6; COLOSSIANS 1:12-14; 23; HEBREWS 10:26-27; HEBREWS 6:4-8; MATTHEW 13:18-23.

According to the scriptures if we are not CONTINUING to BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD to the END we can GREIVE God's Spirit and depart from the faith *2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

GENESIS 6:5-7 [5], And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY IMAGINATION OF THE THOUGHTS OF HIS HEART was only EVIL CONTINUALLY. [6], And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and IT GRIEVED HIM AT HIS HEART. [7], And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth

So it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the coming of the Son of man..

The application of EPHESIANS 4:30 is always to BELIEVERS in the "present tense" it does not say believers cannot fall away from BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. It does not say we cannot quench God's Spirit so that it departs from us.

PSALMS 51:11 Do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take your Holy Spirit from me

1 SAMUEL 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and a distressing Spirit from the Lord troubled him

The Greek Word for sealed is σφραγίζω; sphragizō From G4973; to stamp (with a signet or private mark) for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.

God's Spirit is only given to all those who are BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD in the "present tense". Those who QUENCH (put out) or GRIEVE God's Spirit through sin and unbelief no longer have God's presence unless they repent and turn back to God through faith to become a BELIEVER and FOLLOWER again (present tense).

God's Sheep Hear His Voice (the Word of God).

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For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge His people. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God! Remember the earlier days when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to taunts and afflictions, and at other times you were companions of those who were treated that way. For you sympathized with the prisoners and accepted with joy the confiscation of your possessions, knowing that you yourselves have a better and enduring possession. So don’t throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
Hebrews 10:26-35 - Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10:26-35 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Context...

Trampling the blood is insulting the Spirit of Grace.

One tramples the Spirit of Grace by casting away their enduring possession... “Throwing away their confidence”.

The sin that is Deliberate is to teach that Christians are bound to the Law of Sin and Death.

Hebrews 9 lists the Stone 10 in the old covenant.... which is indeed inferior to the New Covenant of Grace, through faith, not of our own, but the free gift of God.

It blasphemes the Spirit of Grace to bind salvation to Obedience... when Christ died, because no man, but HE/God/YHWH could obey.

The sin of the world is unbelief. Galatians 4 tells us to cast out the Slave woman and Her Son, which were born on Mt. Sanai (Sin).

The verse about better to not have known the Blessed Hope... refers to those that bring the Law of Obedience back into salvation, when Hebrews 9 says He died ONCE for ALL Sin.

Recrucifying Him is accomplished by reexalting Human Ordinance as Slavic or part of Salvation.

Galatians makes this beyond abundant and Galatians 5:4 is no joke.

Those with one, pointing, outstretched finger will understand what this means... John 5:45

Grip Docility said:

For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries. If anyone disregards Moses’ law, he dies without mercy, based on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know the One who has said, Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, and again, The Lord will judge His people. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God! Remember the earlier days when, after you had been enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings. Sometimes you were publicly exposed to taunts and afflictions, and at other times you were companions of those who were treated that way. For you sympathized with the prisoners and accepted with joy the confiscation of your possessions, knowing that you yourselves have a better and enduring possession. So don’t throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
Hebrews 10:26-35 - Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10:26-35 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Context...

Trampling the blood is insulting the Spirit of Grace.

One tramples the Spirit of Grace by casting away their enduring possession... “Throwing away their confidence”.

Click to expand...

Indeed . All this section posted above is true. I am glad we agree here. As the scriptures show we trample on the blood of the covenant by turning away from God's WORD to return to a life of known unrepetant sin *HEBREWS 10:26-27.

Grip Docility said:

The sin that is Deliberate is to teach that Christians are bound to the Law of Sin and Death.

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Indeed the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23 and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of Grace *HEBREWS 10:26-31; HEBREWS 6:4-8.

Grip Docility said:

Hebrews 9 lists the Stone 10 in the old covenant.... which is indeed inferior to the New Covenant of Grace, through faith, not of our own, but the free gift of God.

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Your confused here brother. No where in HEBREWS 9 is God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) even mentioned. You are confusing the MOSAIC SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the law *EXODUS 24:7; DEUTERONOMY 31:24-26 (remission of sins) from OLD COVENANT that pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT with God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) written on stone with God's own finger *EXODUS 32:16 in the NEW COVENANT that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken and lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *ROMANS 3:20; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; GALATIANS 3:22-25; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 13:8-10; ROMANS 8:13; 1 JOHN 2:3-4. HEBREWS 9 is talking about the MOSAIC laws of sin offerings and the SANCTUARY laws of the priesthood from the MOSAIC BOOK of the old covenant not God's 10 commandments...

HEBREWS 9:1-12 [1] Then verily THE FIRST COVENANT HAD ALSO ORDINANCES of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.... [9] WHICH WAS A FIGURE for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;[10] WHICH STOOD ONLY IN MEATS AND DRINKS, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.[12] NEITHER BY THE BLOOD OF GOATS AND CALVES, BUT BY HIS OWN BLOOD he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

HEBREWS 10:1-9 [1], FOR THE LAW (BOOK OF THE LAW FOR REMISSION OF SINS) HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
[3], But in those SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], For it is not possible that THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS should take away sins.
[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS YOU WOULD NOT BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME:
[6], IN BURN'T OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
[7], Then said I, See, I come in the VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, to do your will, O God.
[8], Above when he said, SACRIFICES AND OFFERINGS AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, neither had pleasure therein; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;
[9], Then said he, See, I come to do your will, O God. He takes away the first, that he may establish the second.

EPHESIANS 2 [15] HAVING ABOLISHED in his flesh the enmity, even the LAW OF COMMANDMENTS CONTAINED IN ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;[16] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

HEBREWS 13 [9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be ESTABLISHED WITH GRACE; NOT WITH MEATS, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein. [10] We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle. [11] For THE BODIES OF THOSE BEASTS, WHOSE BLOOD is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] WHEREFORE JESUS ALSO, THAT HE MIGHT SANCTIFY THE PEOPLE WITH HIS OWN BLOOD, suffered without the gate.

The first covenant had ORDINANCES which stood ONLY in meat and drink offerings which were a figure. A shadow

EZEKIEL 46 [14] And thou shalt prepare a meat offering for it every morning, the sixth part of an ephah, and the third part of an hin of oil, to temper with the fine flour; a MEAT OFFERING continually by a perpetual ORDINANCE unto the LORD.

HEBREWS 10 [1] For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR continually make the comers thereunto perfect.[2] For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. [3] But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[4] For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Hebrews 10 says it all. The shadow of the law was the offerings (the meat and drink offerings).

NUMBERS 19 [2] This is the ORDINANCE OF THE LAW which the Lord hath commanded, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer without spot, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke:

JOHN 6 [55] For my flesh is MEAT indeed, and my blood is DRINK indeed.

NUMBERS 18 [8] And the LORD spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them by reason of the anointing, and to thy sons, BY AN ORDINANCE for ever.[9] This shall be thine of the most holy things, reserved from the fire: EVERY OBLATION of theirs, EVERY MEAT OFFERING of theirs, and EVERY SIN OFFERING of theirs, and every trespass offering of theirs, which they shall render unto me, shall be most holy for thee and for thy sons.The new covenant is all about the blood of Christ and God's LAW written on the heart in those who BELIEVE the WORD of GOD. Not changing the law....but fulfilling the law

ROMANS 3 [31], Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YEA, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

ZECHARIAH 9 [9] Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, THY KING COMETH UNTO THEE: HE IS JUST, AND HAVING SALVATION; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.[10] And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from river even to the ends of the earth.[11] As for thee also, BY THE BLOOD OF THY COVENANT I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water
Verse 9 definitely prophecies of the coming Jesus. Verse 11, Jesus is called the blood of thy covenant

HEBREWS 12 [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,[24] And to Jesus THE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT, AND TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

New covenant... blood

LUKE 22 [19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. [20] Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, THIS CUP IS THE NEW TESTAMENT IN MY BLOOD, which is shed for you.

Where is all this leading? The NEW COVENANT of course...

JEREMIAH [31], Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:[32], NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt ; MY COVENANT WHICH THEY BROKE, although I was a husband unto them, says the LORD:[33], But THIS SHALL BE MY COVENANT THAT I SHALL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISREAL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND I WILL WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE; [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

2 CORINTHIANS 3 [2], You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3], Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN THE FLESHLY TABLES OF THE HEART. (see all of 2 COR 3)

……………………………

OVERALL CONCLUSION; Jesus did not come to change or destroy GOD'S LAW (10 Commandments). It is through GOD's LAW that we have a KNOLWEDGE of what SIN is *ROMANS 3:20.

NO MORE ORDINANCES WRITTEN IN THE MOSAIC BOOK of the OLD COVENANT Ceremonial/Levitical/Sacrificial laws and animal sacrifices and FORGIVENESS OF SIN and DELIVERANCE from the PENALTY of SIN through FAITH in CHRIST and the BLOOD of the NEW COVENANT.

Sorry Grip God's WORD disagrees with you.

LoveGodsWord said:

No where in HEBREWS 9 is God's ETERNAL LAW (10 Commandments) even mentioned.

Sorry Grip God's WORD disagrees with you.

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Hold on to your seat.

Now the first covenant also had regulations for ministry and an earthly sanctuary. For a tabernacle was set up, and in the first room, which is called the holy place, were the lampstand, the table, and the presentation loaves. Behind the second curtain, the tabernacle was called the most holy place. It contained the gold altar of incense and the ark of the covenant, covered with gold on all sides, in which there was a gold jar containing the manna, Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Hebrews 9:1-4 - Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9:1-4 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Grip Docility said:

Hold on to your seat.

Now the first covenant also had regulations for ministry and an earthly sanctuary. For a tabernacle was set up, and in the first room, which is called the holy place, were the lampstand, the table, and the presentation loaves. Behind the second curtain, the tabernacle was called the most holy place. It contained the gold altar of incense and the ark of the covenant, covered with gold on all sides, in which there was a gold jar containing the manna, Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Hebrews 9:1-4 - Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 9:1-4 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

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No need to hold on to anything read the post and the scriptuers you are responding to and believe God's WORD. HEBREWS 9 and 10 (Actually HEBREWS 7 HEBREWS 8; HEBREWS 9 and HEBREWS 10) are talking about the MOSAIC laws for remission of sins which are the Sanctuary laws and the Levitical Priesthood from the MOSAIC book of the laws for sacrifice and sin offerings.

LoveGodsWord said:

Indeed . All this section posted above is true. I am glad we agree here. As the scriptures show we trample on the blood of the covenant by turning away from God's WORD to return to a life of known unrepetant sin *HEBREWS 10:26-27.

Sorry Grip God's WORD disagrees with you.

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More proof...

Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stones, came with glory, so that the Israelites were not able to look directly at Moses’ face because of the glory from his face—a fading glory—
2 Corinthians 3:7 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3:7 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death—that is, the Devil —
Hebrews 2:14 - Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 2:14 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting? Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
1 Corinthians 15:54-57 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:54-57 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

These things are illustrations, for the women represent the two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery—this is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: Rejoice, childless woman, who does not give birth. Burst into song and shout, you who are not in labor, for the children of the desolate are many, more numerous than those of the woman who has a husband. Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as then the child born according to the flesh persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so also now. But what does the Scripture say? Drive out the slave and her son, for the son of the slave will never be a coheir with the son of the free woman.
Galatians 4:24-30 - Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:24-30 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

What was “Born” on Sanai?

Grip Docility said:

More proof...

Now if the ministry of death, chiseled in letters on stones, came with glory, so that the Israelites were not able to look directly at Moses’ face because of the glory from his face—a fading glory—
2 Corinthians 3:7 - Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 3:7 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death—that is, the Devil —
Hebrews 2:14 - Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 2:14 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothed with immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory. Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting? Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
1 Corinthians 15:54-57 - Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15:54-57 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

These things are illustrations, for the women represent the two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery—this is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: Rejoice, childless woman, who does not give birth. Burst into song and shout, you who are not in labor, for the children of the desolate are many, more numerous than those of the woman who has a husband. Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. But just as then the child born according to the flesh persecuted the one born according to the Spirit, so also now. But what does the Scripture say? Drive out the slave and her son, for the son of the slave will never be a coheir with the son of the free woman.
Galatians 4:24-30 - Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 4:24-30 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

What was “Born” on Sanai?

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Proof of what? Nothing you have posted here has any links or anything to do with your claims on HEBREWS 9 now does it . I can understand why you are seeking to change the subject though.

LoveGodsWord said:

No nee to hold on to anything read the post and the scriptuers you are responding to and believe God's WORD. HEBREWS 9 and 10 (Actually HEBREWS 7 HEBREWS 8; HEBREWS 9 and HEBREWS 10) are talking about the MOSAIC laws for remission of sins which are the Sanctuary laws for sacrifice.

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You said the stone tablets weren’t part of the inferior Covenant. You said they weren’t in Hebrews 9.

They are there. Either admit certain doctrine considers scripture the “lesser light”, while claiming “another light” is the “lesser”, though exalting a “Spirit of Prophecy” above scripture...

And suggest Paul was wrong....

Or acknowledge what is there.

The Stone Covenant is not a good thing to lens through in reference to the New Covenant.

LoveGodsWord said:

Proof of what? Nothing you have posted here has any links or anything to do with your claims on HEBREWS 9 now does it . I can understand why you are seeking to change the subject though.

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What was born on Sanai?

Grip Docility said:

You said the stone tablets weren’t part of the inferior Covenant. You said they weren’t in Hebrews 9.

They are there. Either admit certain doctrine considers scripture the “lesser light”, while claiming “another light” is the “lesser”, though exalting a “Spirit of Prophecy” above scripture...

And suggest Paul was wrong....

Or acknowledge what is there.

Click to expand...

Your confused here brother. How can God's LAW which give us a knowledge of what sin is in the NEW COVENANT *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; JAMES 2:10-11 be referred to here when it is God's ETERNAL LAW (10 commandments) that leads us to Christ that we might be FORGIVEN through FAITH and made free to walk in God's SPIRIT *GALATIANS 3:22-25; ROMANS 8:1-4; ROMANS 3:31; GALATIANS 5:16; GALATIANS 3:22-25?