Definition of Christian

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everbecoming2007

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How exactly are we defining a cult? The broadest definitions include any religious group. More narrow definitions imply a pernicious, abusive organization.

Given the abuse and lack of accountability for authority figures in the Oneness sect, all of which I witnessed personally (albeit in only one congregation, though many other former Oneness members concur with me), I understand why this organization is referred to as a cult, but do the Quakers really deserve that designation?
 
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everbecoming2007

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How exactly are we defining a cult? The broadest definitions include any religious group. More narrow definitions imply a pernicious, abusive organization.

Given the abuse and lack of accountability for authority figures in the Oneness sect, all of which I witnessed personally (albeit in only one congregation, though many other former Oneness members concur with me), I understand why this organization is referred to as a cult, but do the Quakers really deserve that designation?

I would also add that the term "cult" is ambiguous generally, so I tend to avoid it. When a small sect is known for controlling and abusive authority figures, it is known as a cult, but hypothetically speaking, if a religion is very large but characterized by similarly abusive authority figures, would it still be considered a cult?
 
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Shane R

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The Quakers are an interesting study. They are not a monolithic group with a set of beliefs fixed by some magisterium. In the present day, only about 10-15% are 'unprogrammed.' The rest fall somewhere on the broad spectrum of evangelicalism but mostly in an Anabaptist sphere. They were always open to the charismatic experience. Most now practice baptism and the Lord's Supper. They are ordinances to them, and the theology is hardly distinguishable from the run of the mill Baptist or Non-Denom in that regard.

Where you will find some variation is on how they view the Godhead. The Quaker founders were Arian. I've never met or spoken to a Quaker who had more than a foggy notion of the Trinity. I will not pronounce judgment on the bulk of them but the programmed group is an heretical sect (although, interestingly, their ethos is not that different from hesychasm). Still, I would not send my daughters to the local Evangelical Friends' VBS - we are worlds apart in teaching.
 
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Andrewn

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I consider people/churches/systems Christian if they look to Jesus for salvation, or for the forgiveness of sins, or at least as a primary example of how one should live one's life. That means I would include JWs, LDS, Oneness Pentecostals, and some Unitarians as Christians. In the ancient world, I consider Arian, Apollinarian, and Nestorian Christians as all being Christians. All these groups are unorthodox in one way or another, but they're Christian, in a way that, say, Hindus, are not; they're trying to be disciples of Jesus.
This is an uncommon point of view but I happened to agree with you. No wonder that we're both Anglican <g>. OTOH, there are many pastors and members of liberal denominations that historically proclaim Orthodox Nicene beliefs but who do not believe in the deity, resurrection, or salvation of Christ. These cannot be considered Christians.
 
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everbecoming2007

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This is an uncommon point of view but I happened to agree with you. No wonder that we're both Anglican <g>. OTOH, there are many pastors and members of liberal denominations that historically proclaim Orthodox Nicene beliefs but who do not believe in the deity, resurrection, or salvation of Christ. These cannot be considered Christians.

On what basis do you make this distinction? Isn't it arbitrary?
 
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Andrewn

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everbecoming2007

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Andrewn

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Why are Unitarians Christian but a Unitarian in a mainline church isn't? I've only had time to glance at the article but it looks like a link to churches growing and not definitions.
In this article, 4 specific statements were asked and the _clergy_ of declining churches showed their liberal bias:

1) The Christian faith needs to change over time to stay relevant? 69% agreed.

2) God does _not_ perform miracles in answer to prayer? 56% agreed.

3) Jesus did _not_ rise from the dead with a real flesh and blood body, leaving behind an empty tomb: 44% agreed.

4) It is _not_ very important to encourage non-Christians to become Christians: 50% agreed.

So, my point is that a person upholding these beliefs cannot be called a Christian, regardless of which church they go to. It's not my denominational affiliation that determines whether I'm a Christian but rather my personal attitudes. Unfortunately, a large percentage of _clergy_ in mainline denominations cannot be considered Christians, according to this.
 
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everbecoming2007

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In this article, 4 specific statements were asked and the _clergy_ of declining churches showed their liberal bias:

1) The Christian faith needs to change over time to stay relevant? 69% agreed.

2) God does _not_ perform miracles in answer to prayer? 56% agreed.

3) Jesus did _not_ rise from the dead with a real flesh and blood body, leaving behind an empty tomb: 44% agreed.

4) It is _not_ very important to encourage non-Christians to become Christians: 50% agreed.

So, my point is that a person upholding these beliefs cannot be called a Christian, regardless of which church they goes to. It's not my denominational affiliation that determines whether I'm a Christian but rather my personal attitudes. Unfortunately, a large percentage of _clergy_ in mainline denominations cannot be considered Christians, according to this.

Then why do you count among Christians some Unitarians?
 
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Albion

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Why are Unitarians Christian but a Unitarian in a mainline church isn't? I've only had time to glance at the article but it looks like a link to churches growing and not definitions.
The Unitarian Universalist Assn. generally is NOT considered to be a Christian church, but it is a close call owing to the fact that there are congregations that are Christian in belief and because the Universalist Church before the merger was Christian by most standards. Some reference works will put the UUA in, and others will count them out.
 
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everbecoming2007

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The Unitarian Universalist Assn. generally is NOT considered to be a Christian church, but it is a close call owing to the fact that there are congregations that are Christian in belief and because the Universalist Church before the merger was Christian by most standards. Some reference works will put the UUA in, and others will count them out.

Thank you for elaborating on the UUA. I am aware of their self-identified post-Christian status as a whole, though they are in principle inclusive of Christians and Christian congregations.

However, I was thinking in terms of theological Unitarians and was confused why they and the Oneness, etc would count as Christians but mainline liberals would not be. The distinction seems arbitrary, but perhaps I misunderstood or missed something.
 
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Andrewn

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However, I was thinking in terms of theological Unitarians and was confused why they and the Oneness, etc would count as Christians but mainline liberals would not be.
i wrote above, "It's not my denominational affiliation that determines whether I'm a Christian but rather my personal attitudes." I gave, as examples, 4 statements that may describe non-Christian attitudes. Someone with the right Christian attitudes may choose to change their denominational affiliation.
 
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everbecoming2007

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i wrote above, "It's not my denominational affiliation that determines whether I'm a Christian but rather my personal attitudes." I gave, as examples, 4 statements that may describe non-Christian attitudes. Someone with the right Christian attitudes may choose to change their denominational affiliation. But not everyone understands theology.

The reason I mentioned Unitarians in the theological sense is because even those identifying as Christian are usually characterized by those four statements theologically.
 
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Andrewn

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The reason I mentioned Unitarians in the theological sense is because even those identifying as Christian are usually characterized by those four statements theologically.
Then, according to the definition I applied, they're _not_ Christians.
 
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Paidiske

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In this article, 4 specific statements were asked and the _clergy_ of declining churches showed their liberal bias:

1) The Christian faith needs to change over time to stay relevant? 69% agreed.

2) God does _not_ perform miracles in answer to prayer? 56% agreed.

3) Jesus did _not_ rise from the dead with a real flesh and blood body, leaving behind an empty tomb: 44% agreed.

4) It is _not_ very important to encourage non-Christians to become Christians: 50% agreed.

So, my point is that a person upholding these beliefs cannot be called a Christian, regardless of which church they go to. It's not my denominational affiliation that determines whether I'm a Christian but rather my personal attitudes. Unfortunately, a large percentage of _clergy_ in mainline denominations cannot be considered Christians, according to this.

Just a heads up: on these forums, "Christian" is defined by adherence to the Nicene Creed. Only your third point here would deny part of the Creed.

It breaks the flaming rules of CF to claim that others who identify as Christian are not Christian, so your other three points here could be taken as flaming people with those beliefs.
 
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Andrewn

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It breaks the flaming rules of CF to claim that others who identify as Christian are not Christian,
I apologize to anyone who was offended and will not be adding anything in this thread. Ultimately, only God can see the heart.
 
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Albion

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However, I was thinking in terms of theological Unitarians and was confused why they and the Oneness, etc would count as Christians but mainline liberals would not be. The distinction seems arbitrary, but perhaps I misunderstood or missed something.
I think the answer to this is that it depends on who is doing the classifying.

A theologian probably would exclude Unitarians; and private parties like CF and us here are likely to do so as well, but if the question contemplates a reference work or organization like the United Nations, then it is likely that Unitarians would be put ino the Christian category because that seems the closest of the categories being used. On this thread, the question has been answered by some posters with reference to one of those two...and by other posters who took the other approach.
 
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HARK!

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MOD HAT ON

DUE TO MULTIPLE RULE VIOLATIONS


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MOD HAT OFF
 
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