Is it impossible to lose your salvation?

Dr. Jack

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2019
839
120
63
Pennsylvania
✟26,705.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
John 10:27 all those who are Christ's sheep are the ones who do not just hear and follow right NOW, but have an ongoing, sustained hearing and following. If any quit hearing and following then they are disqualified from being of Christ sheep.

If any in your class who are NOW standing ever sit, then they would be disqualified from passing the course. If not, then your analogy does not fit with verse 27.




Yes, those who are of Christ sheep hear and follow Christ, meaning they follow Christ's command to repent when they sin (sheep are not perfectly sinless). Yet for those sheep that conditionally continue to repent of their sins (continue to walk in the light - Christ's words) then Christ's blood continues to wash away all sins, 1 John 1:7. 1 John 1:7 has conditions in it in having all sins washed away just as John 10:27-28 in being one of Christ's sheep.

In John 10:27 and 1 John 1:7 the present tense of those verbs matter for they show, as you would know, an action that is ongoing, sustained. For if one quits, then he know longer qualifies for what was promised.
So you are saying that the sheep have the responsibility of following the shepherd; if not, the shepherd simply allows to sheep to wander away, and go on his own?
 
Upvote 0

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So you are saying that the sheep have the responsibility of following the shepherd; if not, the shepherd simply allows to sheep to wander away, and go on his own?
If one has the desire to be saved, then he does have the responsibility to faithfully hear and follow Christ.

The verb 'hear' carries the idea of an obedient listening while 'follow' carries the idea of following in the same path, same direction. So as long as one continues to hear, one will follow in the same path as the Shepherd. If one quits hearing he will deviate away from the Shepherd's path and become lost.

Isaiah 53:6 when sheep quit hearing and no longer going in the same direction as the Shepherd, it is the church's responsibility to follow the example of the Good Shepherd (Luke 15) to go find and bring back the lost sheep Galatians 6:1. If the sheep is found and restored to the fold, James says "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

A sheep can refuse to be restored Hebrews 6:4-6 and the church is to discipline such 2 Thessalonians 3:6; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5.
 
Upvote 0

Dr. Jack

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2019
839
120
63
Pennsylvania
✟26,705.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
If one has the desire to be saved, then he does have the responsibility to faithfully hear and follow Christ.
The words "to be" indicate one is NOT currently saved. E.g. I want to be a painter.

The verb 'hear' carries the idea of an obedient listening while 'follow' carries the idea of following in the same path, same direction. So as long as one continues to hear, one will follow in the same path as the Shepherd. If one quits hearing he will deviate away from the Shepherd's path and become lost.
21:4 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem. Acts

When Paul chose to go against the words of warning from the Holy Spirit; or ...

7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans

During the times that Paul admitted to being carnal, rather than being spiritual, had Paul stopped "following" the Holy Spirit, and thereby become lost during those times?


Isaiah 53:6 when sheep quit hearing and no longer going in the same direction as the Shepherd, it is the church's responsibility to follow the example of the Good Shepherd (Luke 15) to go find and bring back the lost sheep Galatians 6:1. If the sheep is found and restored to the fold, James says "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

Until you address the above questions, I cannot make assumptions to address the remainder of your comment.

A sheep can refuse to be restored Hebrews 6:4-6 and the church is to discipline such 2 Thessalonians 3:6; 1 Corinthians 5:1-5.
 
Upvote 0

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private

I put "to be" for one is not first saved, then hears and follows Christ. "To be" saved, one must first hear and follow first, then saved.


In Romans 7, Paul continues to write about the topic of justification. And in Rom 7 Paul shows one cannot be justified by the law of Moses that required perfect, flawless law keeping. And in the latter part of Rom 7 Paul is speaking about the problem the non-Christian Jew had under the OT law of Moses in struggling to keep it flawlessly in order to be justified before God. Paul contrasts that struggle that He had as a non-Christian Jew under the OT law versus "now" (Romans 8:1) being a Christian in Christ. So I do not agree with you that Paul is talking about become lost in Romans 7, but about the hardship the OT law created for the non-Christian Jew to be justified versus being justified in Christ as a Christian.
 
Upvote 0

Dr. Jack

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2019
839
120
63
Pennsylvania
✟26,705.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
I put "to be" for one is not first saved, then hears and follows Christ. "To be" saved, one must first hear and follow first, then saved.


In Romans 7, Paul continues to write about the topic of justification. And in Rom 7 Paul shows one cannot be justified by the law of Moses that required perfect, flawless law keeping. And in the latter part of Rom 7 Paul is speaking about the problem the non-Christian Jew had under the OT law of Moses in struggling to keep it flawlessly in order to be justified before God. Paul contrasts that struggle that He had as a non-Christian Jew under the OT law versus "now" (Romans 8:1) being a Christian in Christ. So I do not agree with you that Paul is talking about become lost in Romans 7, but about the hardship the OT law created for the non-Christian Jew to be justified versus being justified in Christ as a Christian.
1) I was not asserting that Paul became lost in Roman's 7, rather, I was using your application to the need to A) hear; and B ) follow in order to continue to be saved.
2) The tense Paul used in Romans 7 were not 'past' tense reflecting on a previous struggle; but rather were 'present' tense (I do vs. 19). Paul is NOT referring to anyone but himself ... in the present tense.
3) In verse 24 we see
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans
Again, Paul is referring only to himself in the present tense. (Not a non Christian anything.)
4) In Romans 8:1 Paul is emphasizemphthe fact that in spite of him being wretched, he is still "in Christ" and therefore, not in condemnation.

Another text to support this would be ...
1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy
Paul is using the first person singular present indicative.

So again I ask, "During the times that Paul admitted to being carnal, rather than being spiritual, had Paul stopped "following" the Holy Spirit, and thereby become lost during those times?"
 
Upvote 0

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
1) I was not asserting that Paul became lost in Roman's 7, rather, I was using your application to the need to A) hear; and B ) follow in order to continue to be saved.
2) The tense Paul used in Romans 7 were not 'past' tense reflecting on a previous struggle; but rather were 'present' tense (I do vs. 19). Paul is NOT referring to anyone but himself ... in the present tense.
3) In verse 24 we see
7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Romans
Again, Paul is referring only to himself in the present tense. (Not a non Christian anything.)
4) In Romans 8:1 Paul is emphasizemphthe fact that in spite of him being wretched, he is still "in Christ" and therefore, not in condemnation.

Another text to support this would be ...
1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy
Paul is using the first person singular present indicative.

So again I ask, "During the times that Paul admitted to being carnal, rather than being spiritual, had Paul stopped "following" the Holy Spirit, and thereby become lost during those times?"


(1)

Context:

Paul is writing to Jewish converts in Rome. A major problem at that time early in the history of the church was Jewish converts to Christianity would often times slide back into Judaism and the Law of Moses. Paul's point in Romans 7 to them is that the OT law of Moses cannot justify you, it will only condemn you. Paul is demonstrating in the latter part of Romans 7 the struggle and impossibility the non-Christian Jew faced under the OT law in attempting to keep that law perfectly so he could stand before God totally justified. Paul uses the present tense to make his point, a narrative present tense:

Historical present - Wikipedia

Paul is not saying that he, as a Christian, is impenitently, continuing to live in sin. Paul speaks of NOW being in Christ as opposed to back THEN living under the OT law of Moses.

Contradictions in attempt to make Paul a "carnal Christian":

--In Romans 6:1-6 shows that the Christian is one who is dead to sin. Paul could not be both dead to sin and alive to sin at the same time. One cannot be a Christian and not a Christian at the same time. If one is not dead to sin, then one is not a Christian.

--Romans 7:5-6 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death ." Paul speaks of being in the flesh in the past tense. Again, one cannot be both in the flesh(carnal) and not in the flesh at the same time. Romans 8:9 there cannot be mixing of both flesh and Spirit at the same time.

--Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall (future tense) deliver me from the body of this death?" Yet in Romans 7:4-6 Christ already (past tense) rescued them from death. verse 6 "..But now we are delivered from the law.." One cannot be both delivered and not delivered at the same time. If Paul is NOW in Christ, then has already been delivered and needs no deliverance now or in the future.


(2)

There is no such person found in the NT gospel who is Christian but presently lives carnally in sin yet maintains his salvation without repenting of his sin.

(a) In Romans 6, Paul's says "God forbid" to the idea that the Christian is saved by 'grace alone'. For being saved by grace does not give the Christian a license to live in sin/live carnally and still be saved while remaining impenitent. The Bible shows that God's grace is conditional, and those who conditionally obey the will of God are the only ones who receive God's grace. All disobedient people will be eternally punished.

(b) The Bible gives us only two eternal destinies, we will either be eternally saved or eternally lost and Paul lists these two destinies in Romans 6:16. Paul points out that each one of us is serving one of two masters, we each are serving either:
1) sin unto death (eternal condemnation separation from God)
or
2) obedience unto righteousness (eternal life with God in Heaven)

If a Christian is presently living carnally/living in sin:
-- then he is serving sin unto death (spiritual death).
--He certainly is not serving obedience unto righteousness.
--And it is not possible to serve both masters at the same time.
--And there is no 3rd option of "serving sin unto salvation/righteousness"


Therefore 'grace only" will not, cannot save those who continue to serve sin unto death, who continue impenitently in disobeying the will of God.

Luther's faith only denies Paul's "obedience unto righteousness". So which master does that leave faith only proponents to serve?


(3)

1 Tim 1:12 "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;"
1 Tim 1:13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."
1 Tim 1:14 "And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus."
1 Tim 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save (to rescue, set free) sinners (from their sins); of whom I am chief."
1 Tim 1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

A few thoughts on this passage:
a) in verse 13 Paul speaks of his sins as something he did before, not committing those sins presently.
b) if Paul is presently a sinner living carnally in sin, then Paul is serving "sin unto death" Romans 6:16. He would NOT be serving obedience unto righteousness and again there is NO 3rd option of "serving sin unto salvation". (see also 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18)
c) in verse 15 Paul speaks of sinners who have been rescued by Christ from their sins.
d) the Greek word translated "chief in the KJV is protos. Paul is saying he is a first, a prototype of a sinner whom Christ came into the world to rescue, set free, to save. Verse 16 Paul is also a an example/pattern for those hereafter that believe whom Christ was longsuffering towards. Paul once was a blasphemer, persecutor and injurious but is presently now a prototype, a example, a pattern of a sinner whom Jesus was longsuffering towards. Paul owns up to his sins. If one today thinks they are such a vile sinner where they could not be saved, then they can look to Paul as a prototype, an example of a sinner whom Christ was patient with and saved when Paul obediently obeyed, (Acts 22:16).
e) are we to imitate Paul 1 Corinthians 11:1 if he was carnally living in sin? No. Was Paul imitating Christ if he was impenitently living carnally in sin? No.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dr. Jack

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2019
839
120
63
Pennsylvania
✟26,705.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
(1)

Context:

Paul is writing to Jewish converts in Rome. A major problem at that time early in the history of the church was Jewish converts to Christianity would often times slide back into Judaism and the Law of Moses. Paul's point in Romans 7 to them is that the OT law of Moses cannot justify you, it will only condemn you. Paul is demonstrating in the latter part of Romans 7 the struggle and impossibility the non-Christian Jew faced under the OT law in attempting to keep that law perfectly so he could stand before God totally justified. Paul uses the present tense to make his point, a narrative present tense:

Historical present - Wikiped

Paul is not saying that he, as a Christian, is impenitently, continuing to live in sin. Paul speaks of NOW being in Christ as opposed to back THEN living under the OT law of Moses.

Contradictions in attempt to make Paul a "carnal Christian":

--In Romans 6:1-6 shows that the Christian is one who is dead to sin. Paul could not be both dead to sin and alive to sin at the same time. One cannot be a Christian and not a Christian at the same time. If one is not dead to sin, then one is not a Christian.

--Romans 7:5-6 "For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death ." Paul speaks of being in the flesh in the past tense. Again, one cannot be both in the flesh(carnal) and not in the flesh at the same time. Romans 8:9 there cannot be mixing of both flesh and Spirit at the same time.

--Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall (future tense) deliver me from the body of this death?" Yet in Romans 7:4-6 Christ already (past tense) rescued them from death. verse 6 "..But now we are delivered from the law.." One cannot be both delivered and not delivered at the same time. If Paul is NOW in Christ, then has already been delivered and needs no deliverance now or in the future.


(2)

There is no such person found in the NT gospel who is Christian but presently lives carnally in sin yet maintains his salvation without repenting of his sin.

(a) In Romans 6, Paul's says "God forbid" to the idea that the Christian is saved by 'grace alone'. For being saved by grace does not give the Christian a license to live in sin/live carnally and still be saved while remaining impenitent. The Bible shows that God's grace is conditional, and those who conditionally obey the will of God are the only ones who receive God's grace. All disobedient people will be eternally punished.

(b) The Bible gives us only two eternal destinies, we will either be eternally saved or eternally lost and Paul lists these two destinies in Romans 6:16. Paul points out that each one of us is serving one of two masters, we each are serving either:
1) sin unto death (eternal condemnation separation from God)
or
2) obedience unto righteousness (eternal life with God in Heaven)

If a Christian is presently living carnally/living in sin:
-- then he is serving sin unto death (spiritual death).
--He certainly is not serving obedience unto righteousness.
--And it is not possible to serve both masters at the same time.
--And there is no 3rd option of "serving sin unto salvation/righteousness"


Therefore 'grace only" will not, cannot save those who continue to serve sin unto death, who continue impenitently in disobeying the will of God.

Luther's faith only denies Paul's "obedience unto righteousness". So which master does that leave faith only proponents to serve?


(3)

1 Tim 1:12 "And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;"
1 Tim 1:13 "Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief."
1 Tim 1:14 "And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus."
1 Tim 1:15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save (to rescue, set free) sinners (from their sins); of whom I am chief."
1 Tim 1:16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

A few thoughts on this passage:
a) in verse 13 Paul speaks of his sins as something he did before, not committing those sins presently.
b) if Paul is presently a sinner living carnally in sin, then Paul is serving "sin unto death" Romans 6:16. He would NOT be serving obedience unto righteousness and again there is NO 3rd option of "serving sin unto salvation". (see also 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18)
c) in verse 15 Paul speaks of sinners who have been rescued by Christ from their sins.
d) the Greek word translated "chief in the KJV is protos. Paul is saying he is a first, a prototype of a sinner whom Christ came into the world to rescue, set free, to save. Verse 16 Paul is also a an example/pattern for those hereafter that believe whom Christ was longsuffering towards. Paul once was a blasphemer, persecutor and injurious but is presently now a prototype, a example, a pattern of a sinner whom Jesus was longsuffering towards. Paul owns up to his sins. If one today thinks they are such a vile sinner where they could not be saved, then they can look to Paul as a prototype, an example of a sinner whom Christ was patient with and saved when Paul obediently obeyed, (Acts 22:16).
e) are we to imitate Paul 1 Corinthians 11:1 if he was carnally living in sin? No. Was Paul imitating Christ if he was impenitently living carnally in sin? No.
Actually, Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, but, because because he has a burden for Israelites, he addresses them as well.

Furthermore, Paul is not (as you say) addressing Christian Jews, he is addressing Israelites that call themselves "Jews" because they 1) are circumcised; and 2) practicing "Judaism". (Chapter 2
2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, Romans)..

These are NOT Christian Jews, they are lost Israelites, claiming their salvation in 1) their lineage; and 2) their supposed obedience to the Law.

Paul was being honest in the fact that even he wrestled with his flesh.

Your reference to "Historical Present" may apply to various other writings, but there is NOTHING in the Biblical Narrative that implies that Paul was writing in this manner. The HS is very good at prefacing any such type of applications, by informing the reader of such intent.

I am not accusing Paul of being a "carnal Christian"; I am simply referencing the words which Paul used, speaking concerning himself, (while being inspired of God).

I never said I think Paul was carnal, it was he, by his own admission that said he wrestled with his flesh. I did not say (by my authority) that Paul was the chief of sinners; Paul did. I did not say (by my authority) that Paul ignored the witness of the HS by determining to go to Jerusalem; but Luke did record it (by inspiration of the HS).

So once again, during these times when Paul followed his flesh, rather than the HS, did Paul loose his salvation?
 
Upvote 0

DM25

Well-Known Member
Jul 10, 2018
682
322
33
Edmonton
✟16,988.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It's impossible because it's not yours to keep or lose... It is a gift of God. Bible says "it is not of yourselves", meaning you are not the one to decide to lose your salvation because salvation doesn't come from you or what you do in any way, it is a gift of God. I don't understand why so many people can't get this.

If you're chosen, what makes you think you think God, your father, would ever give up on you or lose it when even an earthly parent wouldn't do that and God is more loving and perfect than anyone on earth? Do you guys not know God knew the future before he even made you, knows exactly where you will end up all before he even made creation? He knows who are his children... Don't think you have more of a say than God does.
 
Upvote 0

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Actually, Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles, but, because because he has a burden for Israelites, he addresses them as well.

Furthermore, Paul is not (as you say) addressing Christian Jews, he is addressing Israelites that call themselves "Jews" because they 1) are circumcised; and 2) practicing "Judaism". (Chapter 2
2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, Romans)..

These are NOT Christian Jews, they are lost Israelites, claiming their salvation in 1) their lineage; and 2) their supposed obedience to the Law.

Paul was being honest in the fact that even he wrestled with his flesh.

Your reference to "Historical Present" may apply to various other writings, but there is NOTHING in the Biblical Narrative that implies that Paul was writing in this manner. The HS is very good at prefacing any such type of applications, by informing the reader of such intent.

I am not accusing Paul of being a "carnal Christian"; I am simply referencing the words which Paul used, speaking concerning himself, (while being inspired of God).

I never said I think Paul was carnal, it was he, by his own admission that said he wrestled with his flesh. I did not say (by my authority) that Paul was the chief of sinners; Paul did. I did not say (by my authority) that Paul ignored the witness of the HS by determining to go to Jerusalem; but Luke did record it (by inspiration of the HS).

So once again, during these times when Paul followed his flesh, rather than the HS, did Paul loose his salvation?

Yes, there was both Gentile and Jewish Christians in Rome, but the topic of Romans 7 (and before) was pointed at the Jewish Christians for it was the Jewish Christians that would backslide into Judaism---the Book of Hebrews is full of warnings about backsliding to Hebrew Christians. It was also Jewish Christian that would try and bind the OT law of Moses upon the Gentile Christians (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-20). The book of Galatians is about Paul admonishing those Christians in Galatia who had been led away from the gospel to the OT law of Moses (to another, false gospel).

In the context of Romans, the issue is justification and how Paul proves both Gentile (Romans 1) and Jew (Romans 2) are sinners and in need of justification.

Paul points out in Romans 3 that even though the Jew had an advantage over the Gentile being given the law of Moses it was not an advantage when it came to justification (Romans 3:9)... that a man cannot be justified by deeds of the OT law (Romans 3:28) that required the work of perfect flawless law keeping. Paul ends Romans 3 showing that faith is what justifies.

In Romans 4, Paul gives his Jewish readers an example of a Gentile (Abraham) and Jew (David), men those Jewish readers would be very familiar with, and Paul shows how neither man was justified by works of the OT law in that both men sinned and did not keep the OT law perfectly as that law required. How then they were not justified by works but by an obedient faith.

In Romans 6 we know those Jewish Christians in Rome had been saved from Romans 6:17-18, that they had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then they were justified/freed from sin/saved.

Moving to Romans 7, Paul continues his theme that the OT law cannot justify and begins this chapter by using the institution of marriage to make his point about the OT law. If a woman already has a husband and marries another man she is an adulteress for having two husbands atone time,. The spiritual connection to that is if one is a Christian he then is married to Christ's NT gospel, yet if he also tries and keep the OT law of Moses, then he is keeping two laws at once and is a spiritually adulterer. When Christ died on the cross, He took the OT law out of the way, set it aside making it of no effect and thereby freeing us from that law so we can be married to His NT gospel and not be committing spiritual adultery by keeping two laws. Paul continues this theme in chapter 7 by showing how the OT law cannot justify. Again, that law required perfect, flawless law keeping in order to be justified and to explain that point, Paul spoke of himself in the present tense to show the struggle Jews had under that law in trying to keep it perfectly.

The context in Romans 7 is certainly NOT talking about total depravity for it speaks of one who wants to do good, that knows, loves and delights in the law none of which would be true of a totally depraved man.

And in Romans 8:1 Paul shows NOW as opposed to back then as a non-Christian Jew under the law, there is no condemnation in Christ. For the OT law condemned, it showed no mercy.

If Paul was, as some claim, living in sin, living a carnal life then he could NOT be saved for living such is serving sin unto DEATH. Again, Paul (and each one of us) would be serving ONE of two masters:
1) sin unto death
2) obedience unto righteousness

If he were PRESENTLY living a carnal life then he was lost serving sin unto death for again there is no option of 'sinning unto righteousness'.

As far as Paul writing in a 'historical present tense' I showed the past tense verbs from Romans 6 and the beginning of Romans 7 in how Paul shows a Christian, as himself, is one who "dead to sin" (Romans 6:2) was in the flesh and had been delivered from death. Paul could not be at the same time:
--both dead to sin (a Christian) and alive to sin (not a Christian)
--in the flesh and not in the flesh or in the flesh and in the spirit
--delivered and not delivered

Lastly, Paul was a first, a prototype of a sinner who had been saved by Christ and an example/pattern of one whom Christ was long suffering towards. Paul is not saying he is presently, ongoingly a lost impenitent sinner not saved by Christ.
 
Upvote 0

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
It's impossible because it's not yours to keep or lose... It is a gift of God. Bible says "it is not of yourselves", meaning you are not the one to decide to lose your salvation because salvation doesn't come from you or what you do in any way, it is a gift of God. I don't understand why so many people can't get this.

If you're chosen, what makes you think you think God, your father, would ever give up on you or lose it when even an earthly parent wouldn't do that and God is more loving and perfect than anyone on earth? Do you guys not know God knew the future before he even made you, knows exactly where you will end up all before he even made creation? He knows who are his children... Don't think you have more of a say than God does.
Salvation is a CONDITNAL gift of God and as long as one continues to meet the conditions then one maintains the gift.
John 6:27 for one to be saved he must conditionally meet the conditions of hearing and following. Both verbs in the present tense show the hearing and following must be CONDITONALLY sustain, ongoing. If one then quits hearing and following, he no longer meets the necessary conditions to being saved and one has removed himself from the had of God. There is no such thing, no such example in the NT of one being a Christian/sheep yet not hearing and following Christ.
How can one be a disciple, follower of Christ if he is not even following Christ?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dr. Jack

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2019
839
120
63
Pennsylvania
✟26,705.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Yes, there was both Gentile and Jewish Christians in Rome, but the topic of Romans 7 (and before) was pointed at the Jewish Christians for it was the Jewish Christians that would backslide into Judaism---the Book of Hebrews is full of warnings about backsliding to Hebrew Christians. It was also Jewish Christian that would try and bind the OT law of Moses upon the Gentile Christians (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-20). The book of Galatians is about Paul admonishing those Christians in Galatia who had been led away from the gospel to the OT law of Moses (to another, false gospel).

In the context of Romans, the issue is justification and how Paul proves both Gentile (Romans 1) and Jew (Romans 2) are sinners and in need of justification.

Paul points out in Romans 3 that even though the Jew had an advantage over the Gentile being given the law of Moses it was not an advantage when it came to justification (Romans 3:9)... that a man cannot be justified by deeds of the OT law (Romans 3:28) that required the work of perfect flawless law keeping. Paul ends Romans 3 showing that faith is what justifies.

In Romans 4, Paul gives his Jewish readers an example of a Gentile (Abraham) and Jew (David), men those Jewish readers would be very familiar with, and Paul shows how neither man was justified by works of the OT law in that both men sinned and did not keep the OT law perfectly as that law required. How then they were not justified by works but by an obedient faith.

In Romans 6 we know those Jewish Christians in Rome had been saved from Romans 6:17-18, that they had obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then they were justified/freed from sin/saved.

Moving to Romans 7, Paul continues his theme that the OT law cannot justify and begins this chapter by using the institution of marriage to make his point about the OT law. If a woman already has a husband and marries another man she is an adulteress for having two husbands atone time,. The spiritual connection to that is if one is a Christian he then is married to Christ's NT gospel, yet if he also tries and keep the OT law of Moses, then he is keeping two laws at once and is a spiritually adulterer. When Christ died on the cross, He took the OT law out of the way, set it aside making it of no effect and thereby freeing us from that law so we can be married to His NT gospel and not be committing spiritual adultery by keeping two laws. Paul continues this theme in chapter 7 by showing how the OT law cannot justify. Again, that law required perfect, flawless law keeping in order to be justified and to explain that point, Paul spoke of himself in the present tense to show the struggle Jews had under that law in trying to keep it perfectly.
You do do realize that you just contradicted yourself ... don't you?

"Paul continues this theme in chapter 7 by showing how the OT law cannot justify. Again, that law required perfect, flawless law keeping in order to be justified ... "

Either justification comes by the law,(your last point above), or it doesn't come by the law, (your first point above). The truth of course, it doesn't come by the law. Many Jews THOUGHT justification came by the law, but it didn't.

The context in Romans 7 is certainly NOT talking about total depravity for it speaks of one who wants to do good, that knows, loves and delights in the law none of which would be true of a totally depraved man.
I'm not sure why you would think that I am saying that Roman's 7 is referring to Total Depravity, I'm not a Calvinist.

And in Romans 8:1 Paul shows NOW as opposed to back then as a non-Christian Jew under the law, there is no condemnation in Christ. For the OT law condemned, it showed no mercy.

If Paul was, as some claim, living in sin, living a carnal life then he could NOT be saved for living such is serving sin unto DEATH. Again, Paul (and each one of us) would be serving ONE of two masters:
1) sin unto death
2) obedience unto righteousness

If he were PRESENTLY living a carnal life then he was lost serving sin unto death for again there is no option of 'sinning unto righteousness'.

As far as Paul writing in a 'historical present tense' I showed the past tense verbs from Romans 6 and the beginning of Romans 7 in how Paul shows a Christian, as himself, is one who "dead to sin" (Romans 6:2) was in the flesh and had been delivered from death. Paul could not be at the same time:
--both dead to sin (a Christian) and alive to sin (not a Christian)
--in the flesh and not in the flesh or in the flesh and in the spirit
--delivered and not delivered

Lastly, Paul was a first, a prototype of a sinner who had been saved by Christ and an example/pattern of one whom Christ was long suffering towards. Paul is not saying he is presently, ongoingly a lost impenitent sinner not saved by Christ.

Are you saying that the Christian must reach 'sinless perfection' to remain saved?
 
Upvote 0

DM25

Well-Known Member
Jul 10, 2018
682
322
33
Edmonton
✟16,988.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Salvation is a CONDITNAL gift of God and as long as one continues to meet the conditions then one maintains the gift.
John 6:27 for one to be saved he must conditionally meet the conditions of hearing and following. Both verbs in the present tense show the hearing and following must be CONDITONALLY sustain, ongoing. If one then quits hearing and following, he no longer meets the necessary conditions to being saved and one has removed himself from the had of God. There is no such thing, no such example in the NT of one being a Christian/sheep yet not hearing and following Christ.
How can one be a disciple, follower of Christ if he is not even following Christ?
Nope. That's works salvation and that is heresy. You don't seem to know God very well and his unconditional love for us. He doesn't see us in sin when we are in Christ and he doesn't condemn us anymore.
 
Upvote 0

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Nope. That's works salvation and that is heresy. You don't seem to know God very well and his unconditional love for us. He doesn't see us in sin when we are in Christ and he doesn't condemn us anymore.

Meeting the conditions on a free gift, as salvation, does not earn the free gift.

Hebrew 11:7 the saving of Noah's house was by God's grace but God still required Noah to build the ark in order to receive grace. Noah's building the ark earned him nothing but was a necessary condition GOD put upon His grace.

Luther's faith only is the heresy in that it goes directly against the Bible while denying the common fact that free gifts can and sometimes do come with required conditions.

No one will ever be able to get man to be a sheep of Christ without that man first CONDITIONALLY hearing and following Christ.
 
Upvote 0

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You do do realize that you just contradicted yourself ... don't you?

"Paul continues this theme in chapter 7 by showing how the OT law cannot justify. Again, that law required perfect, flawless law keeping in order to be justified ... "

Either justification comes by the law,(your last point above), or it doesn't come by the law, (your first point above). The truth of course, it doesn't come by the law. Many Jews THOUGHT justification came by the law, but it didn't.

Paul shows both Jew and Gentile are sinners (Romans 1 & 2) therefore in need of justification.

In Romans 3 Paul shows the OT law of Moses could not justify for it required perfect law keeping but shows that faith is what justifies. In Romans 3:28 Paul contrasts deeds of the OT law from an obedient faith.
And in Romans 4 Paul shows that neither Gentile (Abraham) or Jew (David) were justified by the perfect deeds required OT law of Moses but by an obedient faith. No contradictions here.

Dr Jack said:
I'm not sure why you would think that I am saying that Roman's 7 is referring to Total Depravity, I'm not a Calvinist.

I don't know what you are but I am pointing out that in the latter part of Romans 7, Paul is demonstrating what it was like for the non-Christian living under the OT law.

Paul uses the present tense to give the reader a "you are there" experience which is a common literary technique in Koine Greek.

A simple search of...
narrative historic present tense Bible
...yields much information on the subject, such as the below site I found:
http://www.ntdiscourse.org/docs/Levinsohn-Discourse Features-Historical Present.pdf

The site shows that within just the first 5 books of the NT there are over 400 uses of the narrative, historic present tense.




Dr Jack said:
Are you saying that the Christian must reach 'sinless perfection' to remain saved?

No, God does not require perfect sinlessness. This was something God tried to show the Jews during OT times...God was not looking for sinless perfection as required by that OT law but a simple obedient faith, 1 Samuel 15:22.

Since God does not expect/require sinless perfection, He knows the Christian will sin so God has given the Christian a second avenue of forgiveness in repentance. Even though the Christian is not sinless as long as he continues to repent (walk in the light) then Christ's blood continues to wash away all sins 1 John 1:7.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Dr. Jack

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2019
839
120
63
Pennsylvania
✟26,705.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Paul shows both Jew and Gentile are sinners (Romans 1 & 2) therefore in need of justification.

In Romans 3 Paul shows the OT law of Moses could not justify for it required perfect law keeping but shows that faith is what justifies. In Romans 3:28 Paul contrasts deeds of the OT law from an obedient faith.
And in Romans 4 Paul shows that neither Gentile (Abraham) or Jew (David) were justified by the perfect deeds required OT law of Moses but by an obedient faith. No contradictions here.



I don't know what you are but I am pointing out that in the latter part of Romans 7, Paul is demonstrating what it was like for the non-Christian living under the OT law.

Paul uses the present tense to give the reader a "you are there" experience which is a common literary technique in Koine Greek.

A simple search of...
narrative historic present tense Bible
...yields much information on the subject, such as the below site I found:
http://www.ntdiscourse.org/docs/Levinsohn-Discourse Features-Historical Present.pdf

The site shows that within just the first 5 books of the NT there are over 400 uses of the narrative, historic present tense.






No, God does not require perfect sinlessness. This was something God tried to show the Jews during OT times...God was not looking for sinless perfection as required by that OT law but a simple obedient faith, 1 Samuel 15:22.

Since God does not expect/require sinless perfection, He knows the Christian will sin so God has given the Christian a second avenue of forgiveness in repentance. Even though the Christian is not sinless as long as he continues to repent (walk in the light) then Christ's blood continues to wash away all sins 1 John 1:7.
Please explain this ...
Since God does not expect/require sinless perfection, He knows the Christian will sin so God has given the Christian a second avenue of forgiveness in repentance.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Please explain this ...
What exactly do you want explained? We can see from Acts 8 and Simon that Christians can and do sin and if not repented of the Christian will perish. Yet God has given Christians the avenue of repentance so the Christian will not perish.
 
Upvote 0

Dr. Jack

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2019
839
120
63
Pennsylvania
✟26,705.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
What exactly do you want explained? We can see from Acts 8 and Simon that Christians can and do sin and if not repented of the Christian will perish. Yet God has given Christians the avenue of repentance so the Christian will not perish.
10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews

The Holy Spirit inspired the writer of Hebrews to use the words "once for all" and then "perfected for ever".

How can this be with your perspective?
 
Upvote 0

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Hebrews

The Holy Spirit inspired the writer of Hebrews to use the words "once for all" and then "perfected for ever".

How can this be with your perspective?
The contrast is that the animal sacrifices of the OT had to be offered and repeated over and over, yet Christ does not have to be offered over and over due to His perfect righteousness making Him the perfect sacrifice for sins.

Christ's shed blood is something that continues to wash away sins and it took just 'once for all' for that to happen. When one is water baptized, this is the point Christ's blood begins to wash away all sins and as along as long as one continues to walk in the light, Christ's shed blood continues to wash away all sins, 1 John 1:7. Walking in the light includes repentance. So there is no need for Christ to be offered again and again for my sins, just one time was enough with the perpetual, continual flowing of His blood washing away all my sins....as long as I conditionally walk in the light.
 
Upvote 0

Dr. Jack

Well-Known Member
Mar 9, 2019
839
120
63
Pennsylvania
✟26,705.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
The contrast is that the animal sacrifices of the OT had to be offered and repeated over and over, yet Christ does not have to be offered over and over due to His perfect righteousness making Him the perfect sacrifice for sins.

Christ's shed blood is something that continues to wash away sins and it took just 'once for all' for that to happen. When one is water baptized, this is the point Christ's blood begins to wash away all sins and as along as long as one continues to walk in the light, Christ's shed blood continues to wash away all sins, 1 John 1:7. Walking in the light includes repentance. So there is no need for Christ to be offered again and again for my sins, just one time was enough with the perpetual, continual flowing of His blood washing away all my sins....as long as I conditionally walk in the light.
So our salvation is reliant upon 1) the work of God; and 2) the work of us, each and every day.

But that means that God only gets part of the credit for our salvation ... we get the rest.

7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew

Either we give God all the credit ... or none of the credit.

And what is the will of the Father ...

Believe in Jesus, absolutely, and completely.

3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TheSeabass

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2015
1,855
358
✟47,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
So our salvation is reliant upon 1) the work of God; and 2) the work of us, each and every day.

God has already done His role in our salvation by sending Christ to die for the sins of man. Man must do his role in obeying Christ (Hebrews 5:9) to take advantage of what God has done for man.


Dr. Jack said:
But that means that God only gets part of the credit for our salvation ... we get the rest.

God would get all the credit for man's obedience to Christ (Hebrews 5:9) will not be perfect. If my obedience could be perfect, then I would have no sin and would therefore have no need of God's grace and my reward would be of debt and not of grace (Romans 4:4).

But my obedience is not perfect leaving me in need of God's grace and that grace is conditional upon my repentance of my sins, repentance of my not being perfect. Luke 17:10 my imperfections leave me unprofitable servant in need of grace for I could not do what was my duty perfectly.

Dr. Jack said:
7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Matthew

Either we give God all the credit ... or none of the credit.

1) did you notice that Christ said 'he that DOETH the will of my Father" are the ones that will enter the kingdom?? So your and my role is to obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9) do the will of God. Again, I will not be perfect in doing God's will but as long as there is repentance God has forgiveness.

Dr. Jack said:
And what is the will of the Father ...

Believe in Jesus, absolutely, and completely.

Believe John 8:24
Repentance Luke 13:3
confession Matthew 10:32-33
be baptized, Mark 16:16
live faithfully unto death Revelation 2:10


Dr. Jack said:
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John

"believeth" as used here and some other places is used as a synecdoche where it includes repentance, confession and baptism.

Acts 16:33-34 "And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, immediately. (34) And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God."

"Having believed" of verse 34 sums up all the jailer had just done, including repentance (washing of stripes) and be baptized.
 
Upvote 0