Questions Regarding Dietary Law (For Gentile Christians)

Noscentia said:

I was looking into the aspects of the Law which the council places on gentile Christians in Acts 15, and I see that Paul elaborates specifically on the issue of meat offered to idols in 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 10:25-33. My bigger interest is in the second text wherein Paul writes to go ahead and eat meat that’s offered to you and buy meat from markets without concern so long as you don’t question where it came from, but if someone tells you it was an idol offering to only then refuse it.

Between the two texts, it seems to me that so long as you have the full understanding that an idol is nothing and God is God alone, then the meat is acceptable for consumption (so long as you’re not burdening the conscience of your brother in doing so.)

However, what I’m curious about is, if gentiles were buying meat from the meat market without concern for its source or origin, were they expected to concern themselves with the Kosher status of the meat? Whether it was properly butchered (shechita)? Whether all blood was properly drained, etc?

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Conscience and conviction guiding you in your decisions. The more you are convicted, the more you follow. Paul is giving the baby steps, and it doesn't end there for the Gentile. Learn and grow into the whole truth. It is a step by step process. As a process of learning the life of the believer as God would have you, the importance of conscientious decision to abstain from that which God has not declared as food, become a part of your life in Him.

Noscentia said:

I was looking into the aspects of the Law which the council places on gentile Christians in Acts 15, and I see that Paul elaborates specifically on the issue of meat offered to idols in 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 10:25-33. My bigger interest is in the second text wherein Paul writes to go ahead and eat meat that’s offered to you and buy meat from markets without concern so long as you don’t question where it came from, but if someone tells you it was an idol offering to only then refuse it.

Between the two texts, it seems to me that so long as you have the full understanding that an idol is nothing and God is God alone, then the meat is acceptable for consumption (so long as you’re not burdening the conscience of your brother in doing so.)

However, what I’m curious about is, if gentiles were buying meat from the meat market without concern for its source or origin, were they expected to concern themselves with the Kosher status of the meat? Whether it was properly butchered (shechita)? Whether all blood was properly drained, etc?

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I would point you to a writing written after the letters of Paul.

By Yeshua to John decades later.

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against you, because some of you hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to place a stumbling block before the Israelites so they would eat food sacrificed to idols and commit sexual immorality.

2:20 But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads My servants to be sexually immoral and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

Noscentia said:

I don't mean this antagonistically, but assuming your understanding of these verses is correct, I would then have to ask how you would reconcile them with what Paul said. If you think my understanding of the passages in 1 Corinthians is incorrect, please tell me what you believe him to mean.

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If a heathen tell you the meat was sacrificed to an idol, why would you eat it knowing that an idol is nothing? The clean meat should be received if the food is received with thanksgiving (1 Timothy 4:4). Do you think meat dedicated to an idol is clean?

Halal Meat. means "Allah is Greater!". Halal meat comes from animals that are sacrificed "in the name of Allah," who is declared "Greater" than the gods of all other religions. This is blasphemy to Christians who worship the true God, but it should also be offensive to Buddhist, Hindus and the adherents of other religions.

Noscentia said:

Please re-read Paul's words in 1 Corinthians which I've mentioned in the OP. No, you would not knowingly eat meat offered to idols. 1 Corinthians 10:25-33. To my understanding, Paul is saying to buy meat from the markets and to eat meat set before you by unbelievers without asking any questions about its source. Now, in this text he is dealing specifically with meat sacrificed to idols. My question from the OP relates to the fact that if you don't ask any questions about it, you can't know if it was properly butchered and bled. Do you see what I'm getting at?



That's good information, thank you. I never intended to eat anything marked halal, but it's still good to know. Would you be able to answer the questions which I asked you in my previous post (#4)?

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If you do not ask the question how can you know the source? If you do not ask the question because you are at the table of an unbeliever, are you refraining because you do not want the food issue to interfere with the salvation issue at stake? Paul was probably working on the weightier matter in this case. In Paul's mind, the only reason you would be at the table of an unbeliever is for their salvation. He probably took the high road and thought it best to not make eating an issue when the "weightier matter" is the unbeliever's salvation. I also believe that Paul would have a issue with a believer's dietary habits depending on the spiritual growth. If they were bab's in Yeshua, then it would be the baby steps regarding food as pointing out in Acts 15 while they come every Sabbath to learn more about Moses and the laws from Mount Sinai. As they learn more, more is expected out of them.

Noscentia said:

Please re-read Paul's words in 1 Corinthians which I've mentioned in the OP. No, you would not knowingly eat meat offered to idols. 1 Corinthians 10:25-33. To my understanding, Paul is saying to buy meat from the markets and to eat meat set before you by unbelievers without asking any questions about its source. Now, in this text he is dealing specifically with meat sacrificed to idols. My question from the OP relates to the fact that if you don't ask any questions about it, you can't know if it was properly butchered and bled. Do you see what I'm getting at?



That's good information, thank you. I never intended to eat anything marked halal, but it's still good to know. Would you be able to answer the questions which I asked in my previous post (#4)?

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What if Paul the Pharisee was referring to fish? How must fish be slaughtered or gathered according to Torah? Yeshua ate broiled fish (Luke 24:41:43)

Invariably (as with other scriptures) doesn't that depend on how one interprets "clean" ? One distinguishing difference is that although the "Gentiles" (Galatians 2:12) were non-Jewish they were no longer heathens/pagans worshiping idols, having instead become "Christians". In affect/effect Paul is instructing these new "Christians" that it's OK NOT to eat meat that they have reason to believe the animal is "unclean" (e.g. roadkill), or their neighbor has sacrificed said animal (e.g. pig) to a pagan idol. This situation would likely have presented itself in Antioch when Gentile "Christians" lived among neighbors that were still pagans/heathens.


How one should interpret Acts 10:9-16 of Peter's trance/vision is still disputed to this day. Although we are all familiar with these verses will paste them below as for some reason it is not possible in this MJ forum to open any verses listed from the book of Acts (e.g. Acts 10:9-16) ...


Messianic Judaism and Gentile Christianity do not agree on how one should interpret verses 13-15. This was also true among 1st Century mixed congregations of Gentile (uncircumcised) Christians and Jewish (circumcised) Christians with some "Christians" agreeing and others questioned Paul's teaching as contrary to the traditions of Judaism.

Questions for Mercy74: 1. Do you think Peter ever ate pig meat or considered pig meat as "clean" when eating a meal with the Gentile Christians at Antioch that saw nothing wrong with eating pig meat that they considered "clean" ? 2. Do you think it's possible that either Peter or Paul may have instructed the Gentile Christians at Antioch to NOT consume pig meat, if for no other reason that one could get worms from pig meat, therefore "unclean" ? 3. If like Peter isn't it OK for a Messianic Jewish Christian to abstain from meat that they consider "impure or unclean" ?

Thus, like Peter (and Paul) a possible justification for both Messianic Judaism (and Gentile Christianity).

AbbaLove said:

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Invariably (as with other scriptures) doesn't that depend on how one interprets "clean" ? One distinguishing difference is that although the "Gentiles" (Galatians 2:12) were non-Jewish they were no longer heathens/pagans worshiping idols, having instead become "Christians". In affect/effect Paul is instructing these new "Christians" that it's OK NOT to eat meat that they have reason to believe the animal is "unclean" (e.g. roadkill), or their neighbor has sacrificed said animal (e.g. pig) to a pagan idol. This situation would likely have presented itself in Antioch when Gentile "Christians" lived among neighbors that were still pagans/heathens.

"For before certain people came from James, he (Peter) used to eat with the Gentiles (Christians), but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, because he was afraid of those who were of the circumcision," (Galatians 2:12)​

How one should interpret Acts 10:9-16 of Peter's trance/vision is still disputed to this day. Although we are all familiar with these verses will paste them below as for some reason it is not possible in this MJ forum to open any verses listed from the book of Acts (e.g. Acts 10:9-16) ...

9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13 Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.” 14 “Surely not, Lord! Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean. 15 The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean. 16 This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.​

Messianic Judaism and Gentile Christianity do not agree on how one should interpret verses 13-15. This was also true among 1st Century mixed congregations of Gentile (uncircumcised) Christians and Jewish (circumcised) Christians with some "Christians" agreeing and others questioned Paul's teaching as contrary to the traditions of Judaism.

Questions for Mercy74: 1. Do you think Peter ever ate pig meat or considered pig meat as "clean" when eating a meal with the Gentile Christians at Antioch that saw nothing wrong with eating pig meat that they considered "clean" ? 2. Do you think it's possible that either Peter or Paul may have instructed the Gentile Christians at Antioch to NOT consume pig meat, if for no other reason that one could get worms from pig meat, therefore "unclean" ? 3. If like Peter isn't it OK for a Messianic Jewish Christian to abstain from meat that they consider "impure or unclean" ?

Thus, like Peter (and Paul) a possible justification for both Messianic Judaism (and Gentile Christianity).

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Could Peter kill and eat what he saw in his vision? How were those animals in Peter's vision made clean? Peter called animals that were spiritual unclean, Peter refused to eat those animals as if they were carnal (Romans 8:6). It is impossible to kill and eat those spiritual things you see during a dream. At least Peter understood that it is sinful or unlawful to eat what is unclean.

Noscentia said:

I don't mean this antagonistically, but assuming your understanding of these verses is correct, I would then have to ask how you would reconcile them with what Paul said. If you think my understanding of the passages in 1 Corinthians is incorrect, please tell me what you believe him to mean.

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In your OP you said you were more concerned about this part. But lets look at what he said to the Corinthians two chapters earlier. I'm going to remove the more frivolous parts.



Paul states that idols are nothing, however even though made of stone or wood and cannot eat, speak, etc, there is a spirit behind them. They are housed in temples and in house altars. This is where worship is done to them. Part of that worship is sacrificing animals to them.
These should not be eaten under any circumstance. Not only would it have been offered in worship to a lesser being (spirit) but the slaughter of it would not have been done correctly and this would mean that the blood wouldn't be properly drained out.

***One must ask oneself, why would a believer be in a heathen temple eating the sacrifices?

4 (four) Categories of rightful living were given by the head of the Church, James, and that included anything to do with idols.

This is from the letter that was supposed to be taken to the Gentiles who turned to G-d

29 You must abstain from:

1. food sacrificed to idols, ( (of meat), sacrificed to an image (or an idol).)
   
2. from blood, ---
   
3. from the meat of strangled animals, (killed without letting blood out)
   
4. and from sexual immorality. (fornication, whoredom; met: idolatry)

You will do well to avoid these things.

Abstain - be far from, Keep away from

As you can see these tie in by their definitions to what Yeshua warned against.




And also your knowledge of what's right to eat and what isn't.

Noscentia said:

--Just to be clear, I wasn't intending this thread to become a debate on the meaning of Peter's vision in Acts 10 and I'd prefer it didn't--



Precisely my point. Paul says not to ask and not to worry about it unless someone tells you otherwise. Or at least that's what the text seems to imply to me. I've yet to hear alternative opinions on this.



I wouldn't say this interpretation is impossible, I just don't see any reason given to believe this is necessarily the case. Additionally, it doesn't grapple with what Paul says about buying meat from meat markets where he also says to buy and eat whatever is sold there without asking questions.



I won't say it's impossible, but I don't see anything in the text here suggesting the use of meat market (makellō) was specific to a seller of fish rather than a typical butchery or meat stall, or that meat (krea) means anything other than simply flesh or meat (not specific to fish.)

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Okay, Yeshua ate fish (Luke 24:43), Paul says follow me as I follow Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). Your question is a legal question, the type of meat (fish) is key, did the multitude ask any questions about the two fish and five loaves of bread (John 6:11)? How are fish gathered or slaughtered according to Torah? The fish and bread are above reproach or questioning for conscience sake (Titus 1:6). Normally any meat market is inspected by USDA or FDA, I doubt any meat market would openly make a tv commercial that they are selling meat sacrificed to idols. This may hinder or decrease sales. In fact meat sacrificed to idols would not occur in a meat market but a idol or pagan temple (1 Corinthians 8:10).

Noscentia said:

Yes, Paul says an idol is nothing. He says that if you understand that an idol is nothing, you have liberty to understand meat offered to idols has no power. He warns us not to abuse this liberty if it causes others to stumble.

1 Corinthians 8:7
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

Meaning, only those with a weak conscience, only those who don't have the knowledge that an idol is nothing are defiled.

1 Corinthians 10:25
25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake;

If Paul was suggesting that these should not be eaten under any circumstance (as you stated), surely this would be a foolish thing to say. This was said in the context of consuming meat sacrificed to idols. Paul says to eat without question what is sold in meat markets, and he says to eat without question what is offered to you by nonbelievers (provided you have the knowledge spoken of in the prior verses.) Why would he say this if these should not be eaten under any circumstance?

And despite the way this discussion appears to be going I would like to add that I'm neither advocating, nor am I especially interested in consuming meat offered to idols, lol.



Sorry, I'm a bit confused by what you're saying. You're saying Christ and the Apostles were pescetarians? Or are you saying Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 10:25 only apply to fish? Apologies if I'm not quite understanding what you're getting at.

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Meat sacrificed to idols would not occur in a meat market but rather in a pagan or idol temple. Why would you ask questions concerning kosher meat in a market, but leave that place of business enter into a idol temple and eat meat placed on an idol altar without questioning conscience sake? Meat placed on an idol altar certainly defy the laws of kosher. YHWH would not be pleased with any man's worship inside a idol temple.

Noscentia said:

To my understanding, Paul is saying to buy meat from the markets and to eat meat set before you by unbelievers without asking any questions about its source. Now, in this text he is dealing specifically with meat sacrificed to idols. My question from the OP relates to the fact that if you don't ask any questions about it, you can't know if it was properly butchered and bled. Do you see what I'm getting at?

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To not ask any questions about it's source could lead many to eat things not only unclean, by their creator but also could cause anything from dire illness to death.

Just a for instance, you are served a stew, you don't ask what's in it and start eating. Shortly thereafter your tongue starts to swell up and then your air is cut off. They had no Epi-pens back then for someone allergic to shellfish which was in the stew.

Mercy74 said:

What if Paul the Pharisee was referring to fish? How must fish be slaughtered or gathered according to Torah? Yeshua ate broiled fish (Luke 24:41:43)

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Fish are not hallachaly slaughtered like mammals. The only thing about fish is that they have to have fins and scales.

AbbaLove said:

"For before certain people came from James, he (Peter) used to eat with the Gentiles (Christians), but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, because he was afraid of those who were of the circumcision," (Galatians 2:12)

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Nobody ever asks why he was 'afraid' of the other Jews, perhaps it was because Peter, who was present at the Council in Jerusalem knew of the letter sent and 'assumed' that the Galatians were keeping Kosher. When those men came up from Jerusalem, they told Peter that they were not keeping Kosher and that is why he withdrew and separated himself, not because he was afraid of his fellow Jews but he was afraid of what he'd done after what they told him.

Remember he even talked back to the L-RD G-D himself when he said:


Very adamant about keeping Kosher, keeping Torah which he did then and afterwards until Galatia.

Mercy74 said:

Could Peter kill and eat what he saw in his vision? How were those animals in Peter's vision made clean? Peter called animals that were spiritual unclean, Peter refused to eat those animals as if they were carnal (Romans 8:6). It is impossible to kill and eat those spiritual things you see during a dream. At least Peter understood that it is sinful or unlawful to eat what is unclean.

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Yes he did. However it is misinterpreted by most, what was in the vision were not animals, but those animals represented the nations. This msut be kept in mind, just like in the book of Daniel he uses animals to describe different nations. Today even there are nations that have animal representatives, some are 'mythical' but most are true species, both mammals and birds.

• 142 (74%) countries have designated at least one national animal symbol;
• 71 (37%) countries have more than one national animal symbol.

For instance India has the Peacock, the Elephant, the Bengal Tiger, The River Dolphin and the King Cobra.

USA --Eagle and Bison
Britain --Unicorn and Lion, Red Kite and British Bulldog
Russia--Double headed Eagle and the Bear

It can be confusing, as many nations use the Eagle, wonder why?

1. Belgium
2. Czech Republic
3. England
   
4. Ethiopia
5. Gambia
6. Iran
7. Kenya
8. Libya
9. Luxembourg
10. North Macedonia
11. Morocco
12. Netherlands
13. Norway
14. Sierra Leone
15. Singapore
16. Sri Lanka
17. Togo

He saw heaven open and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. It contained all kinds of four-footed animals and reptiles of the earth, as well as birds of the air.

Here are some nations represented by reptiles

Chinese Dragon (China)
King Cobra (India)
Komodo Dragon (Indonesia)
Crocodile (Pakistan)
Welsh Dragon (Wales)

I never thought of asking my owner about the meat she puts in my bowl!

Mercy74 said:

Meat sacrificed to idols would not occur in a meat market but rather in a pagan or idol temple. Why would you ask questions concerning kosher meat in a market, but leave that place of business enter into a idol temple and eat meat placed on an idol altar without questioning conscience sake? Meat placed on an idol altar certainly defy the laws of kosher. YHWH would not be pleased with any man's worship inside a idol temple.

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Remember at that time there was only the Jews and the rest of the world were heathens, believing in other gods. There were many slaughters done as a 'gift' to the idol but unlike the Levitical priesthood where some of the offerings were eaten by the priests or their families and some by the people offering them what they did back then was to make the sacrifice, place it on the altar for a period of time (think about the flies) and then move it to the marketplace and sell it.

Lost4words said:

I never thought of asking my owner about the meat she puts in my bowl!

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Man was made in G-ds image, dogs are lower on the pole. And this is a serious thread, so please respond or don't likewise.