Pommer

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The last Jim Crow law I found was implemented by Woodrow Wilson in 1914. I can understand wanting to go after him....but he's dead....so I don't see you having much success.

Everyone after him was, arguably, following the law. If we go after them for following the law....you'd be setting a rather frightful precedent wherein anyone who followed the law one day could be punished for it if the law ever changes.

Imagine if we outlawed abortion one day.....and the next we dug through medical records and prosecuted women who had abortions when it was legal? Do you think that would be just? Or a massive injustice?

Even worse....for any progress to occur, we would have to be willing to open ourselves to prosecution for past deeds that were once legal. I don't see a lot of progress happening after that.
I’m not a person of color, but I like to think that if I were and kept hearing “you have equal opportunity now, please stop complaining about ‘past sins’”, yeah, I wouldn’t stop complaining either.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I’m not a person of color, but I like to think that if I were and kept hearing “you have equal opportunity now, please stop complaining about ‘past sins’”, yeah, I wouldn’t stop complaining either.

I honestly don't care what anyone complains about....my concern is that when people try to institutionalize racism, it's fought against.

You're against systemic racism aren't you?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Because race and class tend to be interrelated.



If we were to obscure race as one of our variables and just go by income level (so as to not predispose ourselves to assuming that the lowest income level places would be majority this or that), I bet we would find plenty of non-black poor areas, as it's not like only black people live in poverty (white people do too, of course, as do Asians, Native Americans, and everyone else), and yet I imagine that since poverty and race tend to correlate, a larger percentage of black people would be living in poverty than white people, even if the percentage of white people made up the largest overall number (since the country itself is majority white).

Consider this for example....

Gay Men Used to Earn Less than Straight Men; Now They Earn More

Homosexual men earn more money on average than straight men. If I were to apply the logic of some people....I'd be pushing for discrimination against homosexuals and preference for heterosexuals.

It's not as if homosexuals haven't faced bias, oppression, and a ton of discrimination.....it's not as if they still don't face a lot of these things.

The only reasonable conclusion is that a disparity can't be explained by bias alone. It's possible bias plays a role....but it seems unlikely at this point, the role is significant. That's despite a large portion of the population being openly biased against them.
 
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rjs330

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Given that recent data shows millennials with lower net worth than previous generations at that age by some 35 percent, there may not be a lot of wealth left to pass on.

Either way, the solution is not to create a system which systemically advantages one group over another.

American millennials have an average net worth of $8,000 — and it's part of a bigger financial problem the generation is facing

Average millennials’ net worth is $8,000, study finds

I'm not surprised at this. The cost of healthcare and the debt of college is staggering.
 
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rjs330

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I’m not a person of color, but I like to think that if I were and kept hearing “you have equal opportunity now, please stop complaining about ‘past sins’”, yeah, I wouldn’t stop complaining either.

Why not? If the sins were not against you why continue to complain when they happened to someone else a long time ago. What do you hope to accomplish by it and what final outcome do you want from the complaining?

It's absolutely fine to acknowledge that something happened. It's called history. We need to remember things in order to not let them happen again. The Jews have a right to remember what happened in WW2. The world should say, never again. The blacks have a right to remember slavery and Jim Crowe. America should stand with them and say never again. AND WE HAVE.

But it all boils down to what do you do with that? Complain? Demand that the grievences of the past be redressed? How? Against who? Or do you take advantage of the opportunities if the present?
 
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PeachyKeane

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I came across probably the best article I've read on current race relations in the US. This one seemed to either fly under the radar....or was flat out ignored by most media outlets.

Do you feel that most media outlets should consider this opinion piece as news? What makes it newsworthy?
 
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rambot

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Why not? If the sins were not against you why continue to complain when they happened to someone else a long time ago. What do you hope to accomplish by it and what final outcome do you want from the complaining?

It's absolutely fine to acknowledge that something happened. It's called history. We need to remember things in order to not let them happen again. The Jews have a right to remember what happened in WW2. The world should say, never again. The blacks have a right to remember slavery and Jim Crowe. America should stand with them and say never again. AND WE HAVE.

But it all boils down to what do you do with that? Complain? Demand that the grievences of the past be redressed? How? Against who? Or do you take advantage of the opportunities if the present?
While I kinda understand this, I'm not in total agreement.

I know not everyone is a huge fan of the idea of "intergenerational trauma", and that's fine, but I've seen it play out many times. Sometimes, I think that the wars that American soldiers have been involved in through this century, have had a profound impact on American men (who became dads) and it has not been properly acknowledged. The trauma those boys/men went through and shouldered through the latter half of the 1900s undoubtedly had an effect on their parenting, mental health and, therefore, on their children. And without their children getting support or understanding of what was going on, they'd feel that "that's just the way to parent" and so they pass that on to their children.

I'm not saying this as a RULE, I'm saying this as a generalized statement about intergenerational trauma and how some soldiers undoubtedly carry that and transmit it through their children.
 
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PeachyKeane

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What I don't understand is is why white people are the only ones that are guilty for their ancestors behaviors. Slavery has been practiced by every race on this planet. Many races are guilty of selling their own people as slaves. Their women as slaves. Much of it is still going on. Yet all we hear about is how white people are the guilty ones.

Did you miss the #MeToo movement?
 
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PeachyKeane

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Why not? If the sins were not against you why continue to complain when they happened to someone else a long time ago. What do you hope to accomplish by it and what final outcome do you want from the complaining?

It's absolutely fine to acknowledge that something happened. It's called history. We need to remember things in order to not let them happen again. The Jews have a right to remember what happened in WW2. The world should say, never again. The blacks have a right to remember slavery and Jim Crowe. America should stand with them and say never again. AND WE HAVE.

But it all boils down to what do you do with that? Complain? Demand that the grievences of the past be redressed? How? Against who? Or do you take advantage of the opportunities if the present?

Do you think the effects of segregation and systematic racism are gone?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Has it passed? We are no longer affected by those policies, that culture or that era?

Well one of the effects of slavery was the transfer of 12+ million Africans into the US, so we can never say it's "gone". There is no way to make the present unaffected by the past.
 
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PeachyKeane

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Well one of the effects of slavery was the transfer of 12+ million Africans into the US, so we can never say it's "gone". There is no way to make the present unaffected by the past.

Segregation and the systemic racism that led to the Civil Rights Movement? That still affects us today?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Segregation and the systemic racism that led to the Civil Rights Movement? That still affects us today?

This is a weird question....you're asking me if systemic racism, which led to the Civil Rights Movement, which led to the anti-discrimination laws we have today.....affects us today?

Is this a serious question? All of the past affects us in some way today.
 
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That's none of your business. But I am not poor.

In most cases, I would agree that it's not my business - and that's why I typically don't ask those kinds of questions around here.

However, I've seen a number of cases of people using their own personal stories as justification for their opinion on some subject only to find that, upon further examination, the details of their stories don't really jive with how they're being presented. It could be that the person isn't as successful as they've said, or they aren't as self-made as they've portrayed themselves, or that their tax burden isn't what they say it is, or whatever. In most cases, I chalk up this disparity not to deliberate dishonesty, but rather to people merely having a skewed impression of themselves and their position relative to everybody around them. And it's happened enough times that I no longer trust people's assessment of themselves (and the opinions that stem from that assessment) without some more objective numbers.

So, when you say you're "not poor", I don't really know what that means. Is "not poor" $25k/yr? Is it $50k/yr? Is it $100k/yr? More? I've known people who would describe all of those as good wages and other people who would describe those as lousy wages. So, while I don't have any interest in being nosy, it's hard for me to know what to do with an argument that's based around an entirely subjective assessment.
 
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PeachyKeane

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This is a weird question....you're asking me if systemic racism, which led to the Civil Rights Movement, which led to the anti-discrimination laws we have today.....affects us today?

Is this a serious question? All of the past affects us in some way today.

Any thoughts on how it affects us today?
 
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Ana the Ist

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Any thoughts on how it affects us today?

I'm sure in more ways than I can describe....

The same could be said of virtually any widespread set of circumstances affecting a large portion of a population.

How about a question for you since I've been so patiently answering your questions and awaiting a point that seems to never come...

Do you think it's wrong to enact laws or policies that value the race of one person over another?
 
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PeachyKeane

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I'm sure in more ways than I can describe....

I'm not expecting a comprehensive answer. Just some examples that come to the top of your head.

The same could be said of virtually any widespread set of circumstances affecting a large portion of a population.

How about a question for you since I've been so patiently answering your questions and awaiting a point that seems to never come...

Do you think it's wrong to enact laws or policies that value the race of one person over another?

"That value the race of one person over another?" Are you sure that's the phrase you want to use? It's pretty vague, and can be applied in virtually any way.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'm not expecting a comprehensive answer. Just some that come to the top of your head.

I would expect it to significantly affect the perceptions of the validity of societal institutions in the minds of some people.

"That value the race of one person over another?" Are you sure that's the phrase you want to use? It's pretty vague, and can be applied in virtually way needed.

I mean it in the same way you mean it....laws and policies applying privileges, advantages, opportunities, even wealth because of the race of a person. The exact same thing you mean when you speak about "systemic racism".

Are you against it or not?
 
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