Sola Fide (Faith Alone) Sets the Record Straight

BNR32FAN

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You’re looking to the wrong fruit!

To be real... we’ve all sinned as badly as “Rick” and worse, long after salvation, one way or another!

To be even more real... the fruit inspection licenses aren’t handed out by God. Do I need to spell out what I am implying?

This is completely irrelevant, God is the fruit inspector not me. This doesn’t change that fact that Jesus specifically said

“Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:20‬
 
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Grip Docility

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This is completely irrelevant, God is the fruit inspector not me. This doesn’t change that fact that Jesus specifically said

“Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:20‬

Irrelevant?

Who’s perpetually obsessed with Ricks desire to see naked women and pound Tequila?

Not me!

If God is the Fruit inspector, why are you attempting to entrap me in my words at every turn?

I say Jesus Saves, totally!!! Even stupid people!

By the way... About Rick...

Satan is given the Glory of Ricks night out, but who shaped the very bodies of those women Rick was ogling? Who made Agave?

Rick May think he pulled a fast one, but as David says... there is no place He can hide from the Spirit of God!

I’m not the one bringing up fruit inspection and obsessing over Ricks Friday night out!

I’m the one obsessing with the One that Saves and seals Rick!

While people should be “Working out their own salvation with fear and trembling”... they shouldn’t have time to judge Rick!
 
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BNR32FAN

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Oh for Pete’s sake... now read Romans 7!

I said we are in the Spirit, but can speak in the flesh to illustrate!

You just proofed my point as Romans 7 is followed by Romans 8!

I said “We are flesh” and God is Spirit!

Are you now saying you’re currently “Spirit”?



We are flesh / God is Spirit!

The Holy Spirit resides within our sinful flesh!

No contradiction. In witness, we can speak in the Spirit... (Saved/Sealed/Sanctified)

We can also speak in the flesh (Romans 7)... to illustrate sincere struggle... for the cause of combatting Carnal Judgment.

I do this most of the time, because people act as if Carnally judging other Christians is more profitable than seeking out lost souls!

So, I confess my sins and quote scripture that is caustic to the soul of the carnally judgmental, in hopes their witness will become more wise!

Romans 7 does not fit the situation of Rick. Paul speaks of sin that he does but does not desire to do. Rick obviously desires to indulge in his sin.
 
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Grip Docility

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Romans 7 does not fit the situation of Rick. Paul speaks of sin that he does but does not desire to do. Rick obviously desires to indulge in his sin.

Rick is doing what The Holy Spirit does not want him to do! Rick is not doing what he wants to do, in Christ!

Rick knows he is wrong and feels conviction, but is trying to play it off!

Rick sees the Law of Sin and Death clutching Him and knows what a wretch he is.

Rick screwed up!

Thank God for Jesus Christ! Rick May be kicked out of the house because his wife saw a credit card charge a few weeks down the road, lose his job, because of being kicked out and be flat on his back before the Almighty, as a consequence of His dumb behavior!

You underestimate the power of God to work with people, in order to save their souls!
 
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BNR32FAN

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Irrelevant?

Who’s perpetually obsessed with Ricks desire to see naked women and pound Tequila?

Not me!

If God is the Fruit inspector, why are you attempting to entrap me in my words at every turn?

I say Jesus Saves, totally!!! Even stupid people!

By the way... About Rick...

Satan is given the Glory of Ricks night out, but who shaped the very bodies of those women Rick was ogling? Who made Agave?

Rick May think he pulled a fast one, but as David says... there is no place He can hide from the Spirit of God!

I’m not the one bringing up fruit inspection and obsessing over Ricks Friday night out!

I’m the one obsessing with the One that Saves and seals Rick!

While people should be “Working out their own salvation with fear and trembling”... they shouldn’t have time to judge Rick!

Rick is a fictional character we’re using as an example. We’re not judging anyone but simply using his actions compared with scriptures to expose the errors of salvation without works and obedience to God. The scriptures clearly state that such a person is not abiding in Christ even tho he claims to be. Rick can believe he is saved by trusting in Christ as his Savior and be completely wrong because Christ is not in him. If Christ were in him you would see it in his actions.
 
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Grip Docility

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Rick is a fictional character we’re using as an example. We’re not judging anyone but simply using his actions compared with scriptures to expose the errors of salvation without works and obedience to God. The scriptures clearly state that such a person is not abiding in Christ even tho he claims to be. Rick can believe he is saved by trusting in Christ as his Savior and be completely wrong because Christ is not in him. If Christ were in him you would see it in his actions.

Jesus Saves 1000’s Of Ricks in the Gospels, While the religious elite that condemned Rick angered the daylights out of Jesus!

Is Rick in for some rude awakenings? Yes! But Rick admits what he is! Jesus can start there! Jesus can deal with the fact that Rick is childish and in need of some growing up.

It is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than it is for a camel to enter through the eye of the needle (provision for individual animals to enter cities, that prevented armies from entering rapidly)
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Nope. Justified by works does not mean saved by works.

Not true. The word "justified by works" in James 2:24 is referring to salvation. In James 2:24, James refers to being justified by faith. First, in other parts of the Bible, we know that being justified by faith is dealing with salvation.

"Therefore being justified by faith,
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1).​

We can even see how one's works or performance directly relates to one's salvation or entrance into God's kingdom.

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).​

Second, the context in James is also dealing with salvation, as well.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." (James 1:26). This confirms the words of Jesus in Matthew 12:37.

"There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you." (James 2:13) (NLT).​

Note: James 2:13 is said in light of the brethren James was writing to in their wrongfully having respect of persons. They were giving favor to the rich brethren and they were not showing any favor to the poor brethren. This was a violation of loving your neighbor. By their doing so, they were breaking all of God's laws as a result. Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth that we are to love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). John says to hate your brother is the equivalent of being a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15). 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." So the Bible warns us in multiple ways that you cannot refuse to love your brother or neighbor and also possess eternal life.

Here is a little more context.

A faith without works is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17).
A dead faith cannot access the saving grace of God.
For without faith, it is impossible to please God (See: Hebrews 11:6).
James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
So this means that works are a part of faith. You cannot separate the two (like you are attempting to do). James says in James 2:19 that a belief alone is like that of the faith of demons. So a belief alone is bad and not good. James 2:24 says that we are justified by works and faith. You cannot be justified by faith in men. But you can only be justified by faith in God. So this means that we are justified by works before God and not men. Justified means to be declared righteous.

You said:
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.” The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Right, the Bible has homonyms within it. In this instance, this interpretation works because it fits the context. But your change on James 2:24 is forced and unnatural and it does not fit the context at all. You have to also change and or ignore:

#1. "being justified by faith" in James 2:24.
#2. James 1:12.
#3. James 1:22.
#4. James 1:26.
#5. James 2:13 (and it's context in light of the rest of the Bible).

Again, if your belief was even remotely true, then Matthew 7:23 would read like this:

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that did not trust in my finished work at the cross and who cared more about living holy for me."
(Matthew 7:23 OSAS Version).

But the Bible actually says,

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
(Matthew 7:23).

This shows that their actions (iniquity or sin) was the REASON WHY they were told to depart from Jesus. Jesus did not know them because they worked iniquity or sin. John says that a person can have an assurance in knowing the Lord if they find that they are keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). The person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them. So knowing the Lord is based on whether you kept his commandments. 1 John 3:4 says that the breaking of the Law (i.e. the command) is sin. So the believers in Matthew 7:23 did not make it because they did not keep God's laws or commands (i.e. they did not believe doing good works was essential to salvation).

You said:
Unlike your position, my position is in perfect harmony. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of obtaining or maintaining salvation. Man is saved apart from the merit of works, yet authentic faith is not apart from the presence of works. This does not mean that works play a part in salvation as if Jesus needs our works to help Him save us in part. Christ’s finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

Yet, you do not believe Christ's finished work is sufficient to save if you believe works MUST be a by-product of showing a true saved genuine faith. If works did not save and yet they were a by-product of salvation, then they would need to be there as showing that one is truly saved (Meaning: Works do play a part in salvation in some way). This is why your belief is a contradiction. You simply cannot see it.

You said:
(Romans 3:24-28)

Romans 3:24-28 is dealing with Initial Salvation and or Ultimate Salvation (i.e. the Justification Process). It is not referring to Sanctification (Which comes after Justification). Romans 3:24 is dealing with how we are not saved by "Works Alone" or "Law Alone" without God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It is why Paul says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Nobody can be saved on their own merits alone without God's grace through faith in Christ first.

My guess is that you probably believe that Romans 3 is also dealing with the ongoing present tense walk of the believer and you do not believe it is referring to the entrance gate of salvation or in how we are ultimately saved. I say this because you most likely believe that Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is in reference to even the present tense walk of the believer. Meaning, that believers in their present tense walk sin and they fall short of the glory of God, and hence, why you believe they always need a Savior, etc. But if this is the case, then you must also apply Romans 3:11 to the present tense walk of the believer, too. Romans 3:11 says this:

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).

So if you believe that a Christian will always sin every day or week, or month or whatever, as per Romans 3:10, and or Romans 3:23, then you must also believe that a Christian has no understanding and that they do not seek after God, either. In other words, Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 are referring to how everyone had sinned at one point in their lives. It is not referring to the present tense walk of believers. It is referring to those who need God's grace (i.e. the entrance gate to salvation).
 
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BNR32FAN

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Rick is doing what The Holy Spirit does not want him to do! Rick is not doing what he wants to do, in Christ!

Rick knows he is wrong and feels conviction, but is trying to play it off!

Rick sees the Law of Sin and Death clutching Him and knows what a wretch he is.

Rick screwed up!

Thank God for Jesus Christ! Rick May be kicked out of the house because his wife saw a credit card charge a few weeks down the road, lose his job, because of being kicked out and be flat on his back before the Almighty, as a consequence of His dumb behavior!

You underestimate the power of God to work with people, in order to save their souls!

WOOHOO!! Is that what someone sounds like when they’re not doing what they want to do? Is that what conviction feels like? If he felt a shred of conviction he would’ve got up and walked out in shame.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Jesus Saves 1000’s Of Ricks in the Gospels, While the religious elite that condemned Rick angered the daylights out of Jesus!

Is Rick in for some rude awakenings? Yes! But Rick admits what he is! Jesus can start there! Jesus can deal with the fact that Rick is childish and in need of some growing up.

It is harder for a rich man to enter heaven than it is for a camel to enter through the eye of the needle (provision for individual animals to enter cities, that prevented armies from entering rapidly)

Where are these 1000s of Ricks in the gospel? Why do you say I have condemned Rick? I’ve simply stated that his actions do not reflect someone who is abiding in Christ. His actions are evidence of his faith.
 
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Grip Docility

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WOOHOO!! Is that what someone sounds like when they’re not doing what they want to do? Is that what conviction feels like? If he felt a shred of conviction he would’ve got up and walked out in shame.

Do you know of a single human being, other than our Lord, God Jesus Christ (Savior) that hasn’t walked in shame after they were saved?

James 2:8-10 ; 1 John 1:8-10
 
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Grip Docility

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Grip Docility

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OP Topic

Faith Alone is not the denial that "Initial Belief" (In Jesus, being God the Son Who Died, was Buried and Rose on the Third Day)... is our WORK... because Jesus taught us it is John 6:28-29.

Faith Alone is not a secret teaching that suggests we should Increase our Sins because they're paid for like an indulgence.

Faith Alone is not a loop hole to sin without sorrow.

Faith Alone is not a way of denying that Christians are led by The HOLY SPIRIT of Christ to Bear The Galatians 5:22-23.

Faith Alone forever Confesses 1 John 1:8

Faith Alone does not, and never will suggest that Jesus cannot Overcome Horrible struggles with Sin, in our lives, for us.

Faith Alone does not deny that God works miracles.

Faith Alone is our part. (Romans 4:1-6)

Salvation and Sanctification is HIS PART.

All Glory Goes to Jesus!

James isn't arguing against faith alone. James is agreeing with Jesus, where John 15 is written.

I'll craft an analogy...

Lets say there is a mighty body of water...

Rapid.jpg


A piece of Bamboo can divert some of this water to be diverted by a system of Bamboo, for 100's of miles.

Drip-irrigation-using-bamboo.jpg


The Bamboo will have this water flowing from it, as long as it stays "in" the original water source. This is Faith.

The water is not our own and merely flows through us as a result of our Faith.
 
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ralfyman

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To recap, Jesus gave two great commandments: love God and love others. That means faith and works. One can refer to passages from His followers which refer to one or the other, but His two great commandments should be remembered.

Even though both are needed, this does not mean one is exclusive of the other. That's why it's very hard to maintain faith in God and then act like a rotten person, or act in a compassionate manner without contemplating the ultimate reason for doing so. At some point, one will have to realize that they depend on each other. Or one can look at several of Jesus' parables and see how that comes into play.
 
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mdamon0501

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I think the disagreement comes from the origin of the works, not necessarily on the necessity of works.

Are the works simply from the will of man, or are the works a proof of saving faith?

This would be the classic denouncement of false professors. No elect person is expected to be free of sin, since man is dead in sin, but if one is professing the name of Christ, and yet there is no evidence that the Holy Spirit is working through him to the Glory of God by demonstration, then could one safely assume that the profession of Faith by that person is motivated by means other than truly being filled by the Spirit? I believe the answer to that question is yes.

I think that is exactly what James 2 is trying to get across to its reader. Or these verses spoken by the Lord:

Matthew 7:15-20

Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Or,

Matthew 25:41-46

Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you have Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.'

Then they themselves will also answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

I definitely think any form of "wage salvation" is in error though. Faith without works, is dead. True saving Faith, although not capable of purifying a believer as Christ was purified, good works should accompany the Holy Spirit as testimony of it being received.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Do you know of a single human being, other than our Lord, God Jesus Christ (Savior) that hasn’t walked in shame after they were saved?

James 2:8-10 ; 1 John 1:8-10

Exactly where is there any spec of shame in Rick’s actions? There’s not a shred of evidence of him experiencing any kind of shame.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Mark 2:13-17 ; Mark 2:17 Cross References (20 Verses) ; Col 2:16 Cross References (40 Verses)

Matthew 11:19

Where you won’t find those saved Sinners is in Matthew 23

Not one of these scriptures fits the situation of Rick. A person claiming to be a Christian and using Jesus’ sacrifice as an excuse to sin. All your doing is posting a lot of nonsense that does not directly fit the situation we’re discussing. Just because Jesus taught thousands of sinners does not mean they all became Christians then began willfully indulging in sin and mocking Jesus by saying I can sin all I want because Jesus died for my sins. None of the verses you quoted describe a situation even remotely similar to Rick’s situation. Honestly what I see here is you will post anything in an attempt to persuade people of your point of view regardless of its context. I will continue to post the scriptures that tell us that we must obey God and abide in Christ in order to receive salvation because to omit these teachings puts people’s eternal soul in danger and gives them a false sense of security. Even John Calvin said “We are saved by faith alone, but a saving faith is not alone”. Not one single Christian church writing before 1500AD supports the doctrines of faith alone or eternal security. In fact every one of them taught the exact opposite. So it’s preposterous to say that the apostles taught these doctrines if there’s no evidence of it in the early church writings. I’ve even shown you in one of the earliest church writings written in 180AD that these doctrines are refuted by St Iranaeus in his books titled Adversus Haereses (Against Heresies). The Catholic Church has endorsed these books throughout the centuries ever since they were written. To say that the Church was wrong about the requirements for salvation mentioned in these books is to say that they fell away from the teachings of the apostles less than 150 years after Jesus’ ascension. This would mean that Jesus’ plan to establish the church would fail less than 150 years after He returned to heaven. In Matthew 16:18 Jesus specifically said that evil will not prevail over His church. He did say some will fall away but He never said the entire church would fall away. By this we know without a shadow of a doubt that His Church must remain uninterrupted and uncorrupted from its establishment until He returns. His church, guided by the Holy Spirit, must bear fruit and spread the gospel to the world and yet there is not a shred of evidence anywhere of Protestant doctrines before the 16th century. How can you ignore these facts?
 
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