"If its proven that information is permanently lost in a black hole, and thus resolving the Information Parodox, could this fact have a positive baring for Freewill? After all, such a discovery would eliminate quantum determinism, causality, and microreversability, and thus cause and effect.
"Information and Freewill."
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...wait...wut...
*The black hole information paradox[1] is a puzzle resulting from the combination of quantum mechanics and general relativity. Calculations suggest that physical information could permanently disappear in a black hole, allowing many physical states to devolve into the same state. This is controversial because it violates a core precept of modern physics—that in principle the value of a wave function of a physical system at one point in time should determine its value at any other time.[2][3] A fundamental postulate of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is that complete information about a system is encoded in its wave function up to when the wave function collapses. The evolution of the wave function is determined by a unitary operator, and unitarity implies that information is conserved in the quantum sense.
Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia
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*The black hole information paradox[1] is a puzzle resulting from the combination of quantum mechanics and general relativity. Calculations suggest that physical information could permanently disappear in a black hole, allowing many physical states to devolve into the same state. This is controversial because it violates a core precept of modern physics—that in principle the value of a wave function of a physical system at one point in time should determine its value at any other time.[2][3] A fundamental postulate of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is that complete information about a system is encoded in its wave function up to when the wave function collapses. The evolution of the wave function is determined by a unitary operator, and unitarity implies that information is conserved in the quantum sense.
Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia
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"Positive baring for Freewill"? So, are you saying that the rise of freewill is the key to the origin of life on earth?
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On the contrary, if it were shown that information is permanently lost in a black hole, that would reinforce the information paradox; it is fundamental to quantum mechanics that information should not be lost.
Causality is another name for cause and effect, so your claim has some redundancy. However, causality is not part of fundamental physics, it's an emergent phenomenon of the arrow of time, which is a result of the low initial entropy of the universe.
Regardless, whether the universe is deterministic or not, we will still have the same subjective experience of free will. How you account for this in your metaphysics is a matter of personal preference.
"We must believe in free will, we have no other choice" - Isaac Bashevis Singer
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"Hello, Ophiolite! Thanks for your response. Causality is cause and effect, correct? So, if determinism is obliterated, and you don't possess knowledge of a systems probable past histories, or the probabilistic outcomes of its future, all you'll know is its present state. I'm not a physicist or a philosopher, but wouldn't this impede ones attempt at understanding a systems current state, and render cause and effect meaningless? Please have mercy on me with your answer, and reply in laymens language. Thanks!"
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Ophiolite
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I see no connection between those points and the loss of information in a black hole. It was that connection I was seeking an explanation for. "Obliteration of determinism" in one discrete portion of the universe, that has characteristics absent from all the rest of the universe, seems unlikely to extend the consequences from the black hole to everywhere else.
That could seem like an Argument from Ignorance. That was why I was asking you to remove my ignorance. So far you have been unsuccessful.
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I see no connection between those points and the loss of information in a black hole. It was that connection I was seeking an explanation for. "Obliteration of determinism" in one discrete portion of the universe, that has characteristics absent from all the rest of the universe, seems unlikely to extend the consequences from the black hole to everywhere else.
That could seem like an Argument from Ignorance. That was why I was asking you to remove my ignorance. So far you have been unsuccessful.
I see no connection between those points and the loss of information in a black hole. It was that connection I was seeking an explanation for. "Obliteration of determinism" in one discrete portion of the universe, that has characteristics absent from all the rest of the universe, seems unlikely to extend the consequences from the black hole to everywhere else.
That could seem like an Argument from Ignorance. That was why I was asking you to remove my ignorance. So far you have been unsuccessful.
I see no connection between those points and the loss of information in a black hole. It was that connection I was seeking an explanation for. "Obliteration of determinism" in one discrete portion of the universe, that has characteristics absent from all the rest of the universe, seems unlikely to extend the consequences from the black hole to everywhere else.
That could seem like an Argument from Ignorance. That was why I was asking you to remove my ignorance. So far you have been unsuccessful.I see no connection between those points and the loss of information in a black hole. It was that connection I was seeking an explanation for. "Obliteration of determinism" in one discrete portion of the universe, that has characteristics absent from all the rest of the universe, seems unlikely to extend the consequences from the black hole to everywhere else.
That could seem like an Argument from Ignorance. That was why I was asking you to remove my ignorance. So far you have been unsuccessful.
Hello, Ophiolite, and I appreciate your understandable answer! But what about the, "Cosmic Censorship Conjecture", proposed by Roger Penrose? In the case of a naked singularity, would the loss of information also be localized to that particular region of space, like that of a hidden singularity(black hole)? Or would an observer, or the entire universe, suffer a collapse of quantum determinism, and have catastrophic ramifications for relativity, in general? I'm obviously no Hawking, so excuse any "elementary" questions! Thanks!
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Just watching this conversation ... it covers some very big topics and needs considerable depth of knowledge in theoretical Classical and Quantum Physics, in order to come to grips with the ramifications of the hypotheticals being posed.
The matter was also covered many years ago when Hawking claimed loss of information. At that time, various unintuitve theoretical considerations were brought to bear on the problem and as far as QM was concerned, Hawking's claim has been explained satisfactorily and QM lives on .. there is no information loss when the theoretically valid contexts are adopted.
The current 'locality' (to a black hole region) issue raised, is thus rendered moot by these theoretically valid viewpoints.
It would seem that physicists are well aware that some hypothetical queries don't actually aid in the pursuit of predictability and practically useful physics, particularly when valid contrary explanations have been presented.
The matter was also covered many years ago when Hawking claimed loss of information. At that time, various unintuitve theoretical considerations were brought to bear on the problem and as far as QM was concerned, Hawking's claim has been explained satisfactorily and QM lives on .. there is no information loss when the theoretically valid contexts are adopted.
The current 'locality' (to a black hole region) issue raised, is thus rendered moot by these theoretically valid viewpoints.
It would seem that physicists are well aware that some hypothetical queries don't actually aid in the pursuit of predictability and practically useful physics, particularly when valid contrary explanations have been presented.
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Ophiolite
Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
You need to sort your QUOTE boxes.
In my first post in the thread I said "imagine I know next to nothing". That was because, by so imagining, you would arrive at a close approximation to reality. It was my intention to ask the questions, while you provided the answers. In this field trying it the other way round is madness.
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