Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

CharismaticLady said:

What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

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There are a lot of different concepts in your post. First, the Calvinist concept of election and predestination is not a Lutheran one. Second, OSAS doctrine is not a Lutheran one. Third, if one wilfully sins repeatedly without repentance that is a reflection of their state of salvation rather than their state of salvation being a reflection on their sin.

Finally, Luther's (what may seem to us a bit hyperbolic 500 years post reformation) statement should be understood as a way of emphasizing Sola Fide. The Roman church, 500 years after its schism from the rest of Christendom, had by the time of Luther very much gone the way of salvation by works through participating in the sacraments, buying indulgences, etc and his statements should be seen in that historical context.

Grip Docility said:

That holiness isn’t ours.

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Our Father's correction changes us to become "partakers of His holiness" > Hebrews 12:4-14.

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

CharismaticLady said:

But, on the other hand, after all your sins are forgiven and you have been given the Holy Spirit, we must keep advancing, and not fall back into sin, for without holiness, no man shall see God.

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In regards to holiness, I have heard those who teach "sinless perfection" quote such verses as Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. Of course the implication is that if we are not "holy enough" (sinless and perfect) then we will not be saved and see the Lord. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1)

There is initial sanctification in which we are "made holy" in standing before God postionally in Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified (past tense) in Christ Jesus..

Yet we also have progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness/holiness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness in the process of ongoing sanctification.

Danthemailman said:

Yet we also have progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

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And I would say all this is because of how God is changing our character. The main correction and resulting holiness is in our nature becoming like Jesus and how God's love is curing us to become. And then comes what is a natural result, more and more, of motives and desires and actions and words . . . yes, and thoughts

"and be renewed in the spirit of your mind," (Ephesians 4:23)

From this scripture, I see how the process of sanctification includes renewing our minds spiritually, so our minds become like the mind of Jesus so we are thinking the way He has us thinking. We grow in this. But the basic spiritual nature of our mind needs correction and renewing to be like God's love, so then we think and see the way love has us thinking and seeing things.

Danthemailman said:

In regards to holiness, I have heard those who teach "sinless perfection" quote such verses as Hebrews 12:14 - Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. Of course the implication is that if we are not "holy enough" (sinless and perfect) then we will not be saved and see the Lord. The NASB reads - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. To be "sanctified" is to be "set apart, made holy." Without justification, there is no sanctification. Our ongoing sanctification has no bearing on our justification. That is, even if we don't reach entire sanctification/sinless perfection in this lifetime (which we won't) we are still justified by faith in Christ. (Romans 5:1)

There is initial sanctification in which we are "made holy" in standing before God postionally in Christ, 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 1:2 - To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified (past tense) in Christ Jesus..

Yet we also have progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness/holiness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness in the process of ongoing sanctification.

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Oscarr said:

The two greatest errors in our churches today are legalism and antinomianism.
Legalism demands Justification by perfect compliance to the Law
Antinomianism say that because we are Justified we don't have to worry about the Law at all but can live just as we please and sin as much as we like.
Both are shortcuts to hell.

Justification is by faith in Christ alone and not by the Law.
But those who are genuinely Justified, love Christ and His Law.
Therefore Sanctification is by the Law and not by faith alone. Sanctification requires obedience to the Law but knows that it will never be perfect obedience to it

Those who hold to the notion that we are sanctified by faith because we are in "the Spirit" is antinomianism in another form and is another pathway to hell.

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A King had a Code of Law which prohibited human sacrifice.

One day, to test his close friend, he ordered him to sacrifice his son for no apparent reason. The friend immediately obeyed, and began to lead his son to a suitable place for the deed. At the last moment, the King stopped the man from breaking the law. He had achieved his objective of finding out if the man trusted him.

As far as the man himself was concerned, he had two issues to deal with. On one hand, he was obliged to follow the Code of Law. On the other, he had to be loyal to his King, whom he had viewed, and proclaimed to all, as always good and wise.

Since his experience with the king had convinced him about the unquestionable superiority of his king in all matters, he decided that failure in being compliant in loyalty was not an option.

This is how a person is sinless in the Kingdom of God.

Notice that biblical examples are always being declared sinless, righteous on this basis. The deeds by which they are judged don’t always have moral content, although God is righteous even there. His laws are righteous, and a PART of loyal response is respecting those laws. But God has other attributes other than being just: He also values mercy and love.

The wicked steward didn’t break any law when he demanded repayment of his loan. There is no obligation to forgive loans just because your own loan is forgiven. But because he showed disloyal behaviour in not valuing what God valued, he was found in infraction on that basis.

You will notice with careful reading how John deals with these two issues in 1 John, saying believers are sinless, yet saying we are liars if we say we are not sinning. This is how he can support a sinless requirement.

Oscarr said:

Those who hold to the notion that we are sanctified by faith because we are in "the Spirit" is antinomianism in another form and is another pathway to hell.

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Practically speaking though, this is only determinate upon whether or not there's genuine obedience. I think it's beneficial to recognize that our express use of language may be inadequate to articulate a truth living within us.

Newtheran said:

Third, if one wilfully sins repeatedly without repentance that is a reflection of their state of salvation rather than their state of salvation being a reflection on their sin.

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CharismaticLady said:

Can you expound on this, I don't know what you are saying. Thanks

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I interpret this to mean that lack of repentance is a reflection of lack of salvation as opposed to lack of sin being a reflection of lack of salvation.

The Righterzpen said:

I interpret this to mean that lack of repentance is a reflection of lack of salvation as opposed to lack of sin being a reflection of lack of salvation.

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You mean the presence of sin indicating a lack of salvation.

Which i agree with. No change in mindset, no meta noia, beginning with corrected thinking and continuing into corrected action, does reflect a lack of salvation.

LoveGodsWord said:

So if someone professes to be a Christian and turns back to live in a life of known unrepentant sin are they in a saved state before God or an unsaved state before God?

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Seeing as "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9, they profess falsely of being a Christian if they continue to live in sin, because those born of God are incapable of such behavior.

LoveGodsWord said:

And who is HEBREWS 6:4-8 talking about? Those who were once BELIEVERS or UNBELIEVERS?

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Those falsely professing faith. "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1John 2:19

LoveGodsWord said:

Once again you are confused the law of liberty is the 10 commandments *JAMES 2:8-12; ROMANS 13:8-10; MATTHEW 22:36-40. The LAW of sin and death is breaking them *1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 6:23; JAMES 1:15; 1 CORINTHIANS 15:56

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The 10 commandments are the Law of Moses of which Paul said, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Gal 3:10-12

LoveGodsWord said:

What do you think these scriptures mean that you have quoted above from DANIEL 9:24? Does JESUS save us from sin or are we saved to continue to sin *JOHN 8:31-36?

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But you've been claiming essentially that you and the rest of us are not presently saved, but rather that ones salvation status will be determined after death based upon ones performance. That's a completely different gospel than what Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Grip Docility said:

Saw the name and missed the verse.

Please answer honestly, though you are forgiven, and saved, you have admitted to me earlier that you still repent of sin... daily.
Am I wrong?

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Very wrong.
I don't need to repent daily.
Repentance means "turn from", or "change".
I turned from sin, so more sin would show that my first repentance was a lie to God.
We can't build relationships with God that are based on lies.
Repentance is permanent or nothing at all.

...

Phil W said:

Very wrong.
I don't need to repent daily.
Repentance means "turn from", or "change".
I turned from sin, so more sin would show that my first repentance was a lie to God.
We can't build relationships with God that are based on lies.
Repentance is permanent or nothing at all.

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So you are without sin and do not sin, in word, thought or deed and are carnally perfect, now, apart from Christ’s imputed Righteousness, in your very flesh?

Wordkeeper said:

Baptism is a food card. It gives access to drinking of spiritual water and eating of spiritual food. It is given on confessing that serving mammon for treasure that rusts is futile, and only serving God for treasure that does not perish is worthwhile.

Not all who were baptised into the people of God, who became children, who were not dogs like the syro-Phoenician woman, benefited from being fed. God was not pleased and their bones littered the wilderness. The feeding of bread from heaven was supposed to cause believers to make the last decision, to abandon what is most precious to them, and depend only on God, as Abraham and Joshua did after being continuously fed.

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Baptism is also the death, burial, and resurrection with Christ...spoken of in Romans 6:3-6.
It is the circumcision done without hands...spoken of in Col 2:11-12.
It is our entry into Christ. (Rom 6:3)
How often is the phrase "in Christ" used in the bible?
A couple of hundred, maybe?
Baptism is how we get "in Christ".

Oscarr said:

Your view is not orthodox Christianity.

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It isn't "my view".
It is the words in the bible.

Phil W said:

It isn't "my view".
It is the words in the bible.

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Would you submit your thoughts, deeds, words and heart as Sinlessly Perfect, apart from Jesus Christ’s imputed Righteousness... according to your flesh?