Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Does willful sin separate those once saved from God.

  • No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

    Votes: 10 33.3%
  • Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

    Votes: 20 66.7%

  • Total voters
    30

Grip Docility

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A real repentance from sin will insure you won't do these things ever again. (2 Cor 7:10..."For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.")

To be sincere, I am certain the church is in trouble...

When men cannot trust their siblings to be able to confess their sins one to another without being Bible thumped, judged or questioned in sincerity... the hardness is setting in.

One brother had the courage to confess their sins, and I was moved to do so, as well. Why, because 1 John says this is right.

I did not do it to receive a sermon on sincerity, but to ensure that it’s well known that I am not lying when I say I need Jesus Christ, before men!

I don’t want to speak lies and insincerity, but be before mankind as God sees and knows me.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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We are all sinners, saved by faith, and our sanctification is not yet perfect, although we work on it as much as we can.
I need to qualify my remarks about not needing a Charismatic experience to be saved. I am not Charismatic. I left that movement in 1978, because I become disillusioned with the worldliness, gossip, self-righteousness, and controlling spirits I found there. The interesting thing I found when I went and joined an Anglican church in the city, that I didn't want to stop praying in tongues. I learned then that the Spiritual gifts are not Charismatic at all. They are Bible, and are still highly beneficial to the church for those who want and need for them to be manifested by the Holy Spirit.

But, over the years, I have learned that what used to be the lunatic fringe in the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches in the misuse of the gifts and the kundalini manifestations, have almost become the mainstream, and these things feature very prominently on Youtube, as if to say this is the Charismatic movement. I firmly believe that the chaotic and outlandish manifestations and teaching that we see in the faith movement which is prominent on Youtube, is totally false, and the manifestations are best the flesh and worst, demonic. No wonder we have good Bible teachers teaching against the Charismatic movement, as if what they see on Youtube is all there is of it.

Having said that, being baptised with the Spirit is part and parcel of conversion and Justification, and He is always in us in spite of our ups and downs in progressing in sanctification. The gifts, including tongues and prophecy are secondary and are part of our sanctification and service to Christ, but not part of our Justification.

I believe that the true emotions that accompany the filling and work of the Spirit in us, are love, peace, and joy and these occur in the context of self-control.

If you listen carefully to the teaching of Bethel and the Faith movement, you will notice that the true gospel is not preached at all, and I have seen people who have got up and said that it is important that they base their faith on the finished work of Jesus on the cross, have been escorted out of conference meetings and branded as demonic and against Christ. This leads me to believe that many in the Bethel and Faith movements, although appear to have Charismatic manifestations, are not actually saved and are in bondage to the deception of non-Christian cults that teach the pagan, occult, positive thinking, confession, and faith in faith, to get what they want from God.

If a person has their foundation right in the true gospel and are saved through faith in the real, Biblical Christ who died for them on the cross, then their indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be real and genuine, and they won't need to fall over backwards, shake and jerk to show that they belong to Christ and are filled with the Spirit.
 
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Paul writes..."Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; (death), and some men they follow after." (1 Tim 5:24)
The judgement for my past sins was death, and I was paid my wage when I was crucified with Christ. (Rom 6:6)
Thanks be to God for then raising me with Christ to walk in newness of life, as a new creature, to walk in the light instead of in the darkness, and in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
What you are saying is the true gospel of Christ, which is that we are justified by God's grace through faith. What our friend is putting forward is a false gospel based on Law. If he is basing his faith on his own performance then one could argue that he is not yet saved.
 
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Phil W

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We are all sinners, saved by faith,
I am an ex-sinner, saved by faith.

and our sanctification is not yet perfect, although we work on it as much as we can.
So your sanctification is by works...not faith?
Where do you get the idea that the Holy Spirit will abide in an unsanctified vessel?
 
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Grip Docility

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I am an ex-sinner, saved by faith.


So your sanctification is by works...not faith?
Where do you get the idea that the Holy Spirit will abide in an unsanctified vessel?

The Potter is shaping the soul right up until the seed dies!

Do you not know that the seed must die for the plant to grow?

1 Corinthians 15:36

Paul’s passion is not intended towards you. You’ll see what I mean.
 
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Phil W

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A paraphrased Parable...

A man once had a debt of 1,000,000,000 dollars. He was finally taken before the King and told he must pay the debt or be locked up until he could pay it off.

This man fell before the King and pleaded that he had a wife and kids, and that he knew he had failed and could never pay the debt off.

The King was moved to compassion and forgave the man’s debt.

The man was so grateful, for years he would give money to those in need and speak of the Great mercy of the King.

In time, the man became shrewd in business and obtained immense wealth.

One of his clients cost him 250,000 dollars and drove him towards a place of need, again.

He drove to the place the client worked, pulled a gun on him, pistol whipped him and said he would harm his family if he didn’t come up with the 250,000 dollars.

A servant of the King saw this, recognized the man and eventually informed the King.

The next day, the man was again drug before the King...

This time, despite all the man’s pleading the King had him locked away for good.
That didn't answer my question.
Isn't Romans 1:30-32 directed at those who still commit sin?
 
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How come that didn't work for the twelve at Ephesus?
Or the Samaritans?
Or, for that matter, Paul?
In fact, only Cornelius was filled with the Holy Ghost before having his sins remitted by baptism in water.
I was responding to our Charismatic friend who says that those who struggle with sin and the flesh are not saved. You need to read my posts which explain my position quite clearly. I don't believe that baptism in water remits our sins. Only the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Our baptism doesn't save. Jesus does, and it is based on God's grace through our faith. Baptism is a work of sanctification after we are converted. If we make baptism a prerequisite for salvation we are basing salvation on works which has no value to God at all.
 
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Phil W

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The Potter is shaping the soul right up until the seed dies!

Do you not know that the seed must die for the plant to grow?

1 Corinthians 15:36

Paul’s passion is not intended towards you. You’ll see what I mean.
But the "seed" dies when it is crucified with Christ. (Rom 6:6)
It then is raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
That new life then grows in grace and knowledge...thanks be to God.
 
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Grip Docility

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That didn't answer my question.
Isn't Romans 1:30-32 directed at those who still commit sin?

No, it is not. It is directed at those ALL condemnation scripture is directed at.

The harlot, The Hard Hearted, The Lawless, The Inflamed by Passions Of the flesh...

It is all about the “Self Sufficient”!

It’s binary! In Christ and bound to Grace and Mercy, or in Self and bound to Malice and Carnal Judgment.

Better it is to have never known the Blessed hope that frees a man, than to hear Him, Know Him And turn back to the very thing that defeats men... (The Law of Sin and Death)...

Their state is worse off than before they knew Him!

In Christ we are Victorious! But, those Fallen from Grace have all the weight of the Law condemning them! Galatians 5:4 ; James 2:8-10

These ReCrucifiers Of Christ, Bold and Arrogant, speak against His very messengers.

It is as the Proverb says... A dog returns to its vomit!
 
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I am an ex-sinner, saved by faith.


So your sanctification is by works...not faith?
Where do you get the idea that the Holy Spirit will abide in an unsanctified vessel?
If you think you are an ex-sinner, then you have gone into self-righteousness. There is no support in Scripture that sanctification is by faith alone. If you are depending on your own performance as the basis of your faith for justification, then you are depending on works, which brings a curse. There are many clear Scriptures that teach that sanctification is a progressive work in us that will be perfected when we meet the Lord in glory. Show me one Scripture that clearly teaches that sanctification is an immediate full work based on faith alone.
 
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Grip Docility

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But the "seed" dies when it is crucified with Christ. (Rom 6:6)
It then is raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
That new life then grows in grace and knowledge...thanks be to God.

If your seed is truly dead, you would be absent from the Body, present with the Lord!

Read 1 Corinthians 15 closely. Now, we have this hope and it is Christ within us that Lives!

We are not yet Glory to glory!

We are SAVED! But we await glorification upon death! Our resurrection bodies will be received, at the appointed time! That time is not now!
 
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But the "seed" dies when it is crucified with Christ. (Rom 6:6)
It then is raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
That new life then grows in grace and knowledge...thanks be to God.
Yes. And that growth in grace and knowledge is progressive sanctification based on putting effort into keeping God's moral law, which no one will be able to be perfect in it during this life.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Yes. And that growth in grace and knowledge is progressive sanctification based on putting effort into keeping God's moral law, which no one will be able to be perfect in it during this life.

It is more accurate to say that growth in grace comes through learning to trust God more and more. As trust grows, so does moral reformation. It's part of the same process because as you "learn to depend on" He "teaches you".
 
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I am an ex-sinner, saved by faith.


So your sanctification is by works...not faith?
Where do you get the idea that the Holy Spirit will abide in an unsanctified vessel?
Justification is by faith in Christ alone. It is permanent for the person who receives Christ and trusts in Him for the rest of his life.

The mistake that many make is they mix up Justification and Sanctification which are two entirely separate things.

Sanctification is by works. James says, "If you say you have faith, show me by your works". He also says "Without works, faith is dead." James is talking about sanctification, not Justification.

But a Justified believer knows that he needs to work out his salvation with fear and trembling and so puts effort into the development of his sanctification, even though he will never be perfect in this life. This is not Justification by works, if it was, then a person has to be sinlessly perfect in order to be Justified. But a truly Justified believer works at his sanctification day by day, and does not incur a penalty for not being perfect, as he would if he was basing his Justification by works.

Having said that, God views a Justified believer as already sanctified. So, it is a case of "now" but "not yet". We are sanctified positionally, but not actually. This is why the Holy Spirit can indwell us, and this shows the wonderful grace of God and the wonderful character of the Holy Spirit that he would dwell in an imperfect believer, such as we are.
 
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It is more accurate to say that growth in grace comes through learning to trust God more and more. As trust grows, so does moral reformation. It's part of the same process because as you "learn to depend on" He "teaches you".
I can go along with that. It is a good description of progressive sanctification, and it happens only to those who have been Justified and filled with the Spirit first.
 
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Phil W

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I was responding to our Charismatic friend who says that those who struggle with sin and the flesh are not saved.
Jesus said..."Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
He also said that no man can serve two masters and will love the one and hate the other.
In effect, Jesus says that servants of sin hate God.

You need to read my posts which explain my position quite clearly. I don't believe that baptism in water remits our sins.
Peter did, (Acts 2:38), and so did Ananias, (Acts 22:16)

Only the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Our baptism doesn't save.
But our baptism puts us on that saving cross! (Rom 6:3-6)
And the result is named in Romans 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
That is where His sanctifying blood is applied to us, while we are on that cross...immersed into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.

Jesus does, and it is based on God's grace through our faith.
I had faith that my sins were remitted when I obeyed Peter's Acts 2:38 commands.

Baptism is a work of sanctification after we are converted.
What constitutes "conversion"?

If we make baptism a prerequisite for salvation we are basing salvation on works which has no value to God at all.
Where is baptism mentioned in the Mosaic Law?
That is the "works" Paul refuted...circumcision, dietary laws etc.
Repentance from sin, baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, and obedience to God are not "works" for salvation, they are obedience to the Lord and to His apostles.
If you think disobedience manifests faith, you are entirely wrong.
 
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Grip Docility

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Jesus said..." and so did AnaniasWhosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
He also said that no man can serve two masters and will love the one and hate the other.
In effect, Jesus says that servants of sin hate God.


Peter did, (Acts 2:38), and so did Ananias, (Acts 22:16)


But our baptism puts us on that saving cross! (Rom 6:3-6)
And the result is named in Romans 6:7..."Fr he that is dead is freed from sin."
That is where His sanctifying blood is applied to us, while we are on that cross...immersed into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.


I had faith that my sins were remitted when I obeyed Peter's Acts 2:38 commands.


What constitutes "conversion"?


Where is baptism mentioned in the Mosaic Law?
That is the "works" Paul refuted...circumcision, dietary laws etc.
Repentance from sin, baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, and obedience to God are not "works" for salvation, they are obedience to the Lord and to His apostles.
If you think disobedience manifests faith, you are entirely wrong.

Ananias and Saphira lied to the Holy Spirit!

That was their sin! They were kin to Judas!

Acts of the Apostles 5:3

Hebrews 4:12
 
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Phil W

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Justification is by faith in Christ alone. It is permanent for the person who receives Christ and trusts in Him for the rest of his life.
Don't sinners reject Christ?
Preferring the things of this world above Him?
That's idolatry.

The mistake that many make is they mix up Justification and Sanctification which are two entirely separate things.
But they happen at the same time, at the point where Jesus blood is in contact with what will be His newest vessel. (Heb 10:10, 14)

Sanctification is by works. James says, "If you say you have faith, show me by your works". He also says "Without works, faith is dead." James is talking about sanctification, not Justification.
He is talking about our manifestation of Christ on earth now, loving our neighbor as we love ourself.

But a Justified believer knows that he needs to work out his salvation with fear and trembling and so puts effort into the development of his sanctification, even though he will never be perfect in this life. This is not Justification by works, if it was, then a person has to be sinlessly perfect in order to be Justified. But a truly Justified believer works at his sanctification day by day, and does not incur a penalty for not being perfect, as he would if he was basing his Justification by works.

Having said that, God views a Justified believer as already sanctified. So, it is a case of "now" but "not yet". We are sanctified positionally, but not actually. This is why the Holy Spirit can indwell us, and this shows the wonderful grace of God and the wonderful character of the Holy Spirit that he would dwell in an imperfect believer, such as we are.
I'm glad my sanctification and salvation aren't "positional".
I am glad they are actual!
You are going to have to supply scripture for your beliefs.
 
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Don't sinners reject Christ?
Preferring the things of this world above Him?
That's idolatry.


But they happen at the same time, at the point where Jesus blood is in contact with what will be His newest vessel. (Heb 10:10, 14)


He is talking about our manifestation of Christ on earth now, loving our neighbor as we love ourself.


I'm glad my sanctification and salvation aren't "positional".
I am glad they are actual!
You are going to have to supply scripture for your beliefs.

Oscar and I both profess Salvation by Faith, Alone. (Please correct me if I’m wrong, @Oscarr)

This isn’t about salvational position. Sanctification is twofold! We are Atoned for, Imputed Christ’s Righteousness... propitiated for... Justified!

However... the process of the Potter shaping our souls is a process! Do you deny that you grow in Christ every day?
 
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