The "everlasting" land promise

claninja · Jun 3, 2019

God promised to give Abrham's offspring the land of Israel as an "everlasting" possession and that all nations would be blessed through his offspring.

Genesis 12:1-3 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Genesis 17:6-8 will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

God promised to give Isaac's offspring the land of Israel and that all nations would be blessed through his offspring

Genesis 26:3-4 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and will bless you, for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham your father. I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,

God promised Jacob to give the land of Israel to his offspring as an "everlasting" possession and that all the nations of the earth would be blessed through his offspring.

Genesis 28:13-14 And behold, the Lord stood above itc and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac. The land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring. Your offspring shall be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south, and in you and your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 48:4 and said to me, ‘Behold, I will make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will make of you a company of peoples and will give this land to your offspring after you for an everlasting possession.’

***It is very important to notice, no tribal allotments are promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is only promised that their offspring will inherit the land as an everlasting possession.

The divisions of the land are instructed in the old covenant. Again, the divisions of the land are NOT found in the promise to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, but in the Law of Moses.

Numbers 26:52-56 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Among these the land shall be divided for an inheritance according to the number of names. “To the larger group you shall increase their inheritance, and to the smaller group you shall diminish their inheritance; each shall be given their inheritance according to those who were numbered of them. “But the land shall be divided by lot. They shall receive their inheritance according to the names of the tribes of their fathers. “According to the selection by lot, their inheritance shall be divided between the larger and the smaller groups.”

Numbers 34:13-15 So Moses commanded the Israelites, “Apportion this land by lot as an inheritance, which the LORD commanded to be given to the nine and a half tribes. For the tribes of the Reubenites and Gadites, along with the half-tribe of Manasseh, have already received their inheritance. These two and a half tribes have received their inheritance across the Jordan from Jericho, toward the sunrise.”

The old covenant was made obsolete at the cross. Thus, the need for land divisions was no longer necessary.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second

Hebrews 10:9 he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

The old covenant being made obsolete at the cross removed the instructions for land division requirements. This does in no way affect the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Why? Because the promises (PLURAL) were made to Abraham and his offspring. The offspring is Christ.

**Thus, it is to Christ that the land was promised as an everlasting possession. It is through Christ that all nations would be blessed.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promiseS were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 3, 2019

claninja said:
God promised to give Abrham's offspring the land of Israel as an "everlasting" possession and that all nations would be blessed through his offspring.

Genesis 12:1-3 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Genesis 17:6-8 will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

God promised to give Isaac's offspring the land of Israel and that all nations would be blessed through his offspring

Genesis 26:3-4 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and will bless you, for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham your father. I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,

God promised Jacob to give the land of Israel to his offspring as an "everlasting" possession and that all the nations of the earth would be blessed through his offspring.

Genesis 28:13-14 And behold, the Lord stood above itc and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac. The land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring. Your offspring shall be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south, and in you and your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 48:4 and said to me, ‘Behold, I will make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will make of you a company of peoples and will give this land to your offspring after you for an everlasting possession.’

***It is very important to notice, no tribal allotments are promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is only promised that their offspring will inherit the land as an everlasting possession.

The divisions of the land are instructed in the old covenant. Again, the divisions of the land are NOT found in the promise to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, but in the Law of Moses.

Numbers 26:52-56 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Among these the land shall be divided for an inheritance according to the number of names. “To the larger group you shall increase their inheritance, and to the smaller group you shall diminish their inheritance; each shall be given their inheritance according to those who were numbered of them. “But the land shall be divided by lot. They shall receive their inheritance according to the names of the tribes of their fathers. “According to the selection by lot, their inheritance shall be divided between the larger and the smaller groups.”

Numbers 34:13-15 So Moses commanded the Israelites, “Apportion this land by lot as an inheritance, which the LORD commanded to be given to the nine and a half tribes. For the tribes of the Reubenites and Gadites, along with the half-tribe of Manasseh, have already received their inheritance. These two and a half tribes have received their inheritance across the Jordan from Jericho, toward the sunrise.”

The old covenant was made obsolete at the cross. Thus, the need for land divisions was no longer necessary.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second

Hebrews 10:9 he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

The old covenant being made obsolete at the cross removed the instructions for land division requirements. This does in no way affect the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Why? Because the promises (PLURAL) were made to Abraham and his offspring. The offspring is Christ.

**Thus, it is to Christ that the land was promised as an everlasting possession. It is through Christ that all nations would be blessed.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promiseS were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Here is a thread that is also on that topic........

Covenant Theology

Covenant with Abraham - In Essence, a Christian Covenant?

msortwell said:
Consider the following . . .

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.(Gal 3:16-17 - KJV)

τοῦτο δὲ λέγω διαθήκην προκεκυρωμένην ὑπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς Χριστὸν ὁ μετὰ ἔτη τετρακόσια καὶ τριάκοντα γεγονὼς νόμος οὐκ ἀκυροῖ εἰς τὸ καταργῆσαι τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν (Gal 3:17 - Textus Receptus)

Do you consider the Textus Receptus to be incorrect in its inclusion of εἰς Χριστὸν (which is carried into the KJV)?

Is the inclusion of this reference to Christ inconsistent with the truth taught in the balance of Galations 3? And, if the inclusion of the reference to Christ in Galations 3:17 is consistent with the balance of Galations 3, would that not make the Abrahamic Covenant, in a sense, a Christian covenant?

Luke 16:26 and the great "chasm/gulf".

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Matthew 3:9
"And no ye should be thinking to say in yeselves 'a father we are having the Abraham'.
For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God, out of the stones these, to raise-up children to the Abraham.

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!
Luke 16:26 And upon all of these, between us[Faith/Life/Jesus] and ye[Law/Death/Moses a great chasm hath been established so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276> (5725)

LUKE 16:
30 "And he said, 'Nay father Abraham! but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'
31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

What is the "great gulf" which stands between the rich man and Lazarus? Paul aptly explains it to us in the 11th chapter of Romans. He tells us that God has blinded the Jews and "given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day" (Rom. 11:8). He goes on to say that "a partial hardening would happen to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles had come in" (Rom. 11:25). In II Corinthians 3:14-15, Paul says that the Jews' "minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart."

The "great gulf" mentioned by Abraham is nothing less than God's blinding in this age of the Jews as a whole to the truth about their Messiah! It's not that the Jewish nation won't acknowledge Yeshua as the prophesied Messiah; they cannot recognize his true identity because of God's actions! Yet because of the Eternal Father's great mercy, this state of affairs will not last forever (Rom. 11:26).

Hebrews 11:29
By Faith They crossed-over/diebhsan <1224> (5627) the Red Sea as thru Dry, which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

keras · Jun 5, 2019

claninja said:
God promised to give Abrham's offspring the land of Israel as an "everlasting" possession and that all nations would be blessed through his offspring.

Abrahams 'offspring' was Jesus and therefore every Christian believer. Who are; a large percentage, actual descendants of Jacob.
Who will occupy the Land?

The question of who will inhabit the holy Land in the period before the Return of Jesus, is made clear by the following Bible passages;

Daniel 7:25 He [the Anti-Christ] will wear down the holy ones of God. He will change the feasts and the religious laws. The Lord’s holy people will be delivered into his power for 3½ years. [Those people, who stay in Beulah: Isaiah 62:1-5, will experience the Tribulation. Daniel 11:32, Revelation 12:17]

Daniel 11:21-22....a despicable man, not recognised as a king, will come unexpectedly and seize the kingdom by intrigue. He will sweep all opposition before him and will kill a leader of the covenant people. [The leader of the One World Govt will conquer Beulah, inhabited by every faithful Christian, and will kill one of their leaders.]

Daniel 11:29-35 At the appointed time, he will again invade the South, but ships of Kittim will oppose him. As he retreats, he will vent his fury against the covenant people. He will reward those who forsake their covenant with God. Troops in his command will stop the regular offering and set up ‘the abomination that causes desolation’. With flattery, he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who are faithful to their God, will be resolute and take action.

Wise leaders of the nation will guide the people, though for a time, they will be taken captive and killed. Some help will come, albeit; not entirely sincere. Those leaders may become victims, so that they may be refined and purified, ready for the end of the age. Daniel 12:3 The wise leaders, who have guided the people in the true path, will shine like stars, forever.

The Anti Christ invades some unidentified nations in Southern regions, but ships of Kittim [Cyprus – in the Mediterranean, but this is a metaphor for the Western nations] will stop him. He will then occupy the Holy Land, taking control and causing many of God’s people to obey him. Those who hold firm to their Covenant with God will be persecuted and some killed. This is in order to refine and purify them, ready for the Return of Jesus.

Zechariah 14:1-2 A Day is coming for the Lord to act and the plunder taken from you will be shared out while you stand by. I shall gather all the nations to make war on Jerusalem, the city will be taken, the houses ransacked and the women raped. Half of the people will go into exile, but the rest will remain there. Daniel 9:27 &11:31-32

Verses 1 & 2 must refer to the midpoint of the 70th week. [7 year period] That commences the Great Tribulation, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. Then: from verse 3, the description is of the Return of Jesus.

Revelation 13:5-10 The Beast, [Anti-Christ] was given permission to continue for 42 months. [3½ years] He blasphemed against God and waged war on God’s people and defeated them, he was given authority over the whole earth. You have ears, so hear!

Those who are destined for prison, will be imprisoned, those to be killed will be killed. This calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God’s people.

Revelation 12:13-14 The dragon [Satan: the Beast] is thrown down to earth. He pursues the Woman, [Israelites, Overcomers; the followers of Jesus] who gave birth to the male child. [Jesus] But she is given the wings of the mighty eagle, so that she could fly to a place in the wilderness, where she is looked after for 3½ years.

Ref. REB, NIV. Verses abridged.

In Zechariah 14:2 it says that half of the population will go into exile, this obviously is the Woman: faithful Christian Israelites, referred to in Revelation 12:6-17, where they will be kept safe until the Return. Daniel 11:32 also makes this distinction.

Then, in Matthew 24:31 – they will be gathered back into the Land, along with those Gentiles who have refused the mark of the Beast, to live with Christ for 1000 years.

The other half of the population who remain in the Land, will suffer under the yoke of the Anti-Christ. They are the Lord’s Christian people, who have to face testing and refinement. Daniel 11:32-33, Revelation 14:12, 2 Esdras 13:47-50, Revelation 7:14....they have passed through the great ordeal.... It is these people who will say to Jesus: “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord”.

So, who are those living in the Land of Israel before and during the Tribulation?

They are the Lord’s people, all the true believers plus the Christian descendants of Jacob, gathered, in order to fulfil God’s promises to the Patriarchs, to be His witnesses and to be His Light to the nations. His holy people are seen in the Land in the last days; Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7.

It is quite evident, from Bible study, that the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal, will cause a dramatic clearance of peoples from all the Middle East area. Jeremiah 10:18, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & Amos 2:1-5

In Ezekiel 20:34-38, we see the gathering of all the 12 tribes of Israel. The Lord will judge them and those who revolt and rebel will not enter the holy Land.

Then all His righteous people to emigrate there, as described in Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, all faithful Christians, from every nation and language, to live there in peace and prosperity. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, and Romans 9:24-26 says how the Christians become Sons of the Living God, in the very place that the ancient Israelites were rejected.

They will rebuild the Temple and reinstitute the Law and the ordinances. Zechariah 6:15, Ezekiel 43:1-12, Isaiah 56:1-8

All the rest of the world will be under a One World Government, initially ruled by 10 leaders, but soon to be taken over by another strong leader. He will rule until the Return of Jesus, when he will be chained up for the 1000 years.

LittleLambofJesus · Jun 5, 2019

keras said:
They will rebuild the Temple and reinstitute the Law and the ordinances. Zechariah 6:15, Ezekiel 43:1-12, Isaiah 56:1-8
All the rest of the world will be under a One World Government, initially ruled by 10 leaders, but soon to be taken over by another strong leader. He will rule until the Return of Jesus, when he will be chained up for the 1000 years.

keras..........There is no such thing as a future 1 world government or end of the world. Please quit spreading that falsehood and nonsesense

That is another fantasy of dispenationalist futurists and also not the topic of your thread.

However, I am glad to provide links on that topic for you viewing pleasure, or not.............

https://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/

- 4/9/14: Why Christian Zionism is nothing short of outright heresy "Christian Zionism, the belief that the current Zionist state of Israel is an unambiguous portent of the imminent return of Christ, is said to be the largest growing cult in America. With some 70 million Christian evangelicals in the U.S. (a large proportion subscribing to Christian Zionist beliefs), unconditional support of Israel on religious grounds translates into massive lobbying power in a country where the “religious right” has seen itself as the leaders in a fight against the infidels of secularism, Islam, socialism and any one else in their way."
- 2012: The Dispensational View of Double Fulfillment of Prophecy "So, Joel McDurmon and Gentry (and we could add DeMar and other postmillennialists to the list) are on record as rejecting the Dispensational “double fulfillment” view of prophecy. So after rejecting and condemning the Dispensationalists for positing the Double Fulfillment of prophecy, McDurmon not only affirmed Double Fulfillment, he affirmed Many Fulfillments!"
- 2012: The Importance of Revelation’s Date | Against Dispensationalism "Our blog seeks to explain, promote and defend postmillennialism, which is optimistic about the future conquest of the gospel of Jesus Christ."
- 2011: Thoughts on Eschatology: Dispensationalism, Salvation & Supersessionism "One of the most consisten

FEAR TACTICS TIED TO THE IDEOLOGY OF RELIGIOUS DOMINATION

The Dispensationalist view of Bible prophecy teaches that the nation of Israel is still waiting for its kingdom and King, as well as the reception of the inheritances of the biblical 'Abrahamic Covenant'. Accordingly, they teach, the Second Coming and Great Tribulation are right around the corner to settle affairs.

Those endorsing "Rapture Theology" represent the most vocal Christian sect in America today. This view, built upon an extremely Right Wing political theory, attaches itself to Israel theologically, convinced that the State of Israel is "God's Chosen Nation". Watching current events very closely, they believe that war in Syria will hasten the second coming of Jesus Christ. Besides being terribly racist and dangerous, this doomsday theology has been rejected throughout the history of Christianity, and is repudiated in the New Testament.
================================
T.H. Salmon

What About Palestine? and the Salvation of the Jews - "God certainly did fulfill all that He promised concerning the land, and that neither Revelation 20, nor any of the Old Testament prophets have one word to say about a thousand years reign in Palestine in a future "millennium."

=======================
Some threads on Christian Forums

'New World Order' Conspiracy

EyesOfKohl said:
How many Christians actually believe in the New World Order conspiracy?

Does this actually have a basis part within Christian belief?

What is the perspective, from those who don't, about it?

Does the Bible prophesy a one-world government and a one-world currency in the end times?

Quasar92 said:
The Bible does not use the phrase “one-world government” or “one-world currency” in referring to the end times. It does, however, provide ample evidence to enable us to draw the conclusion that both will exist under the rule of the Antichrist in the last days.

In his apocalyptic vision in the Book of Revelation, the Apostle John sees the “beast,” also called the Antichrist, rising out of the sea having seven heads and ten horns (Revelation 13:1). Combining this vision with Daniel’s similar one (Daniel 7:16-24), we can conclude that some sort of world system will be inaugurated by the beast, the most powerful “horn,” who will defeat the other nine and will begin to wage war against Christians. The ten-nation confederacy is also seen in Daniel’s image of the statue in Daniel 2:41-42, where he pictures the final world government consisting of ten entities represented by the ten toes of the statue. Whoever the ten are and however they come to power, Scripture is clear that the beast will either destroy them or reduce their power to nothing more than figureheads. In the end, they will do his bidding.

John goes on to describe the ruler of this vast empire as having power and great authority, given to him by Satan himself (Revelation 13:2), being followed by and receiving worship from “all the world” (13:3-4), and having authority over “every tribe, people, language and nation” (13:7). From this description, it is logical to assume that this person is the leader of a one-world government which is recognized as sovereign over all other governments. It’s hard to imagine how such diverse systems of government as are in power today would willingly subjugate themselves to a single ruler, and there are many theories on the subject. A logical conclusion is that the disasters and plagues described in Revelation as the seal and trumpet judgments (chapters 6-11) will be so devastating and create such a monumental global crisis that people will embrace anything and anyone who promises to give them relief.

Once entrenched in power, the beast (Antichrist) and the power behind him (Satan) will move to establish absolute control over all peoples of the earth to accomplish their true end, the worship Satan has been seeking ever since being thrown out of heaven (Isaiah 14:12-14). One way they will accomplish this is by controlling all commerce, and this is where the idea of a one-world currency comes in. Revelation 13:16-17 describes some sort of satanic mark which will be required in order to buy and sell. This means anyone who refuses the mark will be unable to buy food, clothing or other necessities of life. No doubt the vast majority of people in the world will succumb to the mark simply to survive. Again, verse 16 makes it clear that this will be a universal system of control where everyone, rich and poor, great and small, will bear the mark on their hand or forehead. There is a great deal of speculation as to how exactly this mark will be affixed, but the technologies that are available right now could accomplish it very easily.

Those who are left behind after the Rapture of the Church will be faced with an excruciating choice—accept the mark of the beast in order to survive or face starvation and horrific persecution by the Antichrist and his followers. But those who come to Christ during this time, those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life (Revelation 13:8), will choose to endure, even to martyrdom.

Recommended Resource: End Times Prophecy by Paul Benware
From: www.gotquestions.org
Quasar92

Should Christians believe in New World Order One World Government Illuminati Conspira

truthseeker63 said:
Should Christians believe in New World Order One World Government Illuminati Conspiracy Theories or not ? What Im trying to ask is should we say that the Anti Christ is already here or will he just appear I always hear Consiracy people say that the Anti Christ is already in control of the World my point is that I believe in the Second Coming of Christ I believe that Israel being a nation is a sign of the End Times but in my view the Anti Christ and or the Real Christ have not appeared yet ?

Bush is a phony Christian

Resistance Manifesto | November 28, 2006
John Conner

Many Christians live in ignorance, thinking it will protect them from the evil in this world. While believing and proclaiming that Jesus will return soon, they seem blind to the fact that the Antichrist isn't just going to pop up out of nowhere and then magically take control of the government and the people. Many Christians fail to see that for generations, the infrastructure and foundation was being built to stage the grand finale.

keras · Jun 5, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
keras..........There is no such thing as a future 1 world government or end of the world. Please quit spreading that falsehood and nonsesense

Usually I just scroll over your posts, but for the sake of the truth, I have to counter the very wrong and unscriptural notion that the world will carry on; life as normal, until Jesus Returns.

There is already, for all practical purposes; a One World Govt. The financial system is controlled by a small elite group and trade, vehicle industry, etc are all quite international and inter-related.
To take it further, they have divided the world into 10 regions. Google: 10 world regions, to see them. They, [the Illuminati, Club of Rome, call them what you like] only await another war or natural disaster to implement their scheme to run the world under 10 Governors.

We who study and believe in what the Bible prophets have told us of how God's Plans for the wrap up of mankinds rule of the planet, know what it is that will reset our civilization; a soon to happen explosion of the suns surface, that will destroy our modern infrastructure and drastically reduce the worlds population.

Calling these warnings 'falsehood and nonsense', shows how ignorant and unprepared for what must happen, are all who deny these truths.

claninja · Jun 16, 2019

keras said:
Abrahams 'offspring' was Jesus and therefore every Christian believer. Who are; a large percentage, actual descendants of Jacob.
Who will occupy the Land?

The question of who will inhabit the holy Land in the period before the Return of Jesus, is made clear by the following Bible passages;

Daniel 7:25 He [the Anti-Christ] will wear down the holy ones of God. He will change the feasts and the religious laws. The Lord’s holy people will be delivered into his power for 3½ years. [Those people, who stay in Beulah: Isaiah 62:1-5, will experience the Tribulation. Daniel 11:32, Revelation 12:17]

Daniel 11:21-22....a despicable man, not recognised as a king, will come unexpectedly and seize the kingdom by intrigue. He will sweep all opposition before him and will kill a leader of the covenant people. [The leader of the One World Govt will conquer Beulah, inhabited by every faithful Christian, and will kill one of their leaders.]

Daniel 11:29-35 At the appointed time, he will again invade the South, but ships of Kittim will oppose him. As he retreats, he will vent his fury against the covenant people. He will reward those who forsake their covenant with God. Troops in his command will stop the regular offering and set up ‘the abomination that causes desolation’. With flattery, he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who are faithful to their God, will be resolute and take action.

Wise leaders of the nation will guide the people, though for a time, they will be taken captive and killed. Some help will come, albeit; not entirely sincere. Those leaders may become victims, so that they may be refined and purified, ready for the end of the age. Daniel 12:3 The wise leaders, who have guided the people in the true path, will shine like stars, forever.

The Anti Christ invades some unidentified nations in Southern regions, but ships of Kittim [Cyprus – in the Mediterranean, but this is a metaphor for the Western nations] will stop him. He will then occupy the Holy Land, taking control and causing many of God’s people to obey him. Those who hold firm to their Covenant with God will be persecuted and some killed. This is in order to refine and purify them, ready for the Return of Jesus.

Zechariah 14:1-2 A Day is coming for the Lord to act and the plunder taken from you will be shared out while you stand by. I shall gather all the nations to make war on Jerusalem, the city will be taken, the houses ransacked and the women raped. Half of the people will go into exile, but the rest will remain there. Daniel 9:27 &11:31-32

Verses 1 & 2 must refer to the midpoint of the 70th week. [7 year period] That commences the Great Tribulation, 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls. Then: from verse 3, the description is of the Return of Jesus.

Revelation 13:5-10 The Beast, [Anti-Christ] was given permission to continue for 42 months. [3½ years] He blasphemed against God and waged war on God’s people and defeated them, he was given authority over the whole earth. You have ears, so hear!

Those who are destined for prison, will be imprisoned, those to be killed will be killed. This calls for the endurance and faithfulness of God’s people.

Revelation 12:13-14 The dragon [Satan: the Beast] is thrown down to earth. He pursues the Woman, [Israelites, Overcomers; the followers of Jesus] who gave birth to the male child. [Jesus] But she is given the wings of the mighty eagle, so that she could fly to a place in the wilderness, where she is looked after for 3½ years.

Ref. REB, NIV. Verses abridged.

In Zechariah 14:2 it says that half of the population will go into exile, this obviously is the Woman: faithful Christian Israelites, referred to in Revelation 12:6-17, where they will be kept safe until the Return. Daniel 11:32 also makes this distinction.

Then, in Matthew 24:31 – they will be gathered back into the Land, along with those Gentiles who have refused the mark of the Beast, to live with Christ for 1000 years.

The other half of the population who remain in the Land, will suffer under the yoke of the Anti-Christ. They are the Lord’s Christian people, who have to face testing and refinement. Daniel 11:32-33, Revelation 14:12, 2 Esdras 13:47-50, Revelation 7:14....they have passed through the great ordeal.... It is these people who will say to Jesus: “Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord”.

So, who are those living in the Land of Israel before and during the Tribulation?

They are the Lord’s people, all the true believers plus the Christian descendants of Jacob, gathered, in order to fulfil God’s promises to the Patriarchs, to be His witnesses and to be His Light to the nations. His holy people are seen in the Land in the last days; Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7.

It is quite evident, from Bible study, that the next prophesied event, the Sixth Seal, will cause a dramatic clearance of peoples from all the Middle East area. Jeremiah 10:18, Jeremiah 12:14, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & Amos 2:1-5

In Ezekiel 20:34-38, we see the gathering of all the 12 tribes of Israel. The Lord will judge them and those who revolt and rebel will not enter the holy Land.

Then all His righteous people to emigrate there, as described in Isaiah 66:18b-21, Psalms 107, all faithful Christians, from every nation and language, to live there in peace and prosperity. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, and Romans 9:24-26 says how the Christians become Sons of the Living God, in the very place that the ancient Israelites were rejected.

They will rebuild the Temple and reinstitute the Law and the ordinances. Zechariah 6:15, Ezekiel 43:1-12, Isaiah 56:1-8

All the rest of the world will be under a One World Government, initially ruled by 10 leaders, but soon to be taken over by another strong leader. He will rule until the Return of Jesus, when he will be chained up for the 1000 years.

The unconditional promises made to abraham were to his offspring, as in Jesus, not offsprings. The land belongs Jesus, as the whole earth is His. Heaven is his throne and the earth is his footstool. All the nations are blessed through the work of the cross, Christ's ascension to all authority, and the sending of the Spirit.

Genesis 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “I will give this land to your offspring.” So Abram built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Genesis 13:15 for all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring forever.

Genesis 22:18 And through your offspring all nations of the earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. The Scripture does not say, “and to offsprings,” meaning many, but “and to your offspring,” meaning One, who is Christ.

Do you know what a forerunner is, Keras?

4274 pródromos (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1408 /drómos, "a race-course") – properly, a person running ahead (a forerunner) to reach the destination before others – i.e. arriving safely in advance for the benefit of others who also need to get there.

Hebrews 6:19-20 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and steadfast. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus our forerunner has entered on our behalf.

Where did Jesus go, as a forerunner, safely in advance for the benefit of us who also need to the get there?

keras · Jun 16, 2019

claninja said:
Where did Jesus go, as a forerunner, safely in advance for the benefit of us who also need to the get there?

I agree that is will be only faithful Christians who will occupy all of the holy land.
However, God does have a secret. a people who He has kept watch over thru the ages, who did become apostate and were exiled for their sins. This was for a decreed period, which is now nearly if not already completed.
Bible prophecy is clear: God's originally chosen people, the House of Israel, whom Jesus came to save; will be redeemed, restored and forgiven. They will live in their heritage and many other peoples will join them.
So you aren't wrong, just not understanding how God's Plan for His people finally comes to fruition.

Douggg · Jun 16, 2019

claninja said:
God promised to give Abrham's offspring the land of Israel as an "everlasting" possession and that all nations would be blessed through his offspring.

Genesis 12:1-3 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Genesis 17:6-8 will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make you into nations, and kings shall come from you. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, and I will be their God.”

God promised to give Isaac's offspring the land of Israel and that all nations would be blessed through his offspring

Genesis 26:3-4 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and will bless you, for to you and to your offspring I will give all these lands, and I will establish the oath that I swore to Abraham your father. I will multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and will give to your offspring all these lands. And in your offspring all the nations of the earth shall be blessed,

God promised Jacob to give the land of Israel to his offspring as an "everlasting" possession and that all the nations of the earth would be blessed through his offspring.

Genesis 28:13-14 And behold, the Lord stood above itc and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac. The land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring. Your offspring shall be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south, and in you and your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 48:4 and said to me, ‘Behold, I will make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will make of you a company of peoples and will give this land to your offspring after you for an everlasting possession.’

***It is very important to notice, no tribal allotments are promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is only promised that their offspring will inherit the land as an everlasting possession.

The divisions of the land are instructed in the old covenant. Again, the divisions of the land are NOT found in the promise to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob, but in the Law of Moses.

Numbers 26:52-56 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, “Among these the land shall be divided for an inheritance according to the number of names. “To the larger group you shall increase their inheritance, and to the smaller group you shall diminish their inheritance; each shall be given their inheritance according to those who were numbered of them. “But the land shall be divided by lot. They shall receive their inheritance according to the names of the tribes of their fathers. “According to the selection by lot, their inheritance shall be divided between the larger and the smaller groups.”

Numbers 34:13-15 So Moses commanded the Israelites, “Apportion this land by lot as an inheritance, which the LORD commanded to be given to the nine and a half tribes. For the tribes of the Reubenites and Gadites, along with the half-tribe of Manasseh, have already received their inheritance. These two and a half tribes have received their inheritance across the Jordan from Jericho, toward the sunrise.”

The old covenant was made obsolete at the cross. Thus, the need for land divisions was no longer necessary.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second

Hebrews 10:9 he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

The old covenant being made obsolete at the cross removed the instructions for land division requirements. This does in no way affect the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Why? Because the promises (PLURAL) were made to Abraham and his offspring. The offspring is Christ.

**Thus, it is to Christ that the land was promised as an everlasting possession. It is through Christ that all nations would be blessed.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promiseS were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

The land of Israel belongs to the children of Israel as theirs forever.

Ezekiel 39, Jesus Himself speaking in these verses....

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

keras · Jun 17, 2019

Douggg said:
The land of Israel belongs to the children of Israel as theirs forever.

Around we go again!
Who are the true Israel? Just Jews? Just Messianic Jews?
Who are the 'vast multitude' that John sees in Revelation 7:9? And do not think they are the Church in heaven, because the scripture does not say that, they are God's holy people, who have gathered from around the world, to live in the holy Land, as God always wanted His faithful people to be.

We Christians ARE Abrahams, or more specifically; Jacobs children by faith, Isaiah 51:1-2, Galatians 3:26-29
We Christians ARE the house of Israel, Jesus came to save US and He was successful. Praise God!

Douggg · Jun 17, 2019

keras said:
We Christians ARE the house of Israel, Jesus came to save US and He was successful.

No, we are not the house of Israel.

Look as why the house of Israel was taken captivity into the nations.

Ezekiel 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

claninja · Jun 17, 2019

keras said:
I agree that is will be only faithful Christians who will occupy all of the holy land.

Where did I say Christians will occupy the holy land for you to agree with?

I asked, but you did not answer: Where did Jesus go, as a forerunner, safely in advance as a high priest for the benefit of us who also need to the get there?

Hebrews 6:19-20 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and steadfast. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where Jesus our forerunner has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.

keras said:
However, God does have a secret. a people who He has kept watch over thru the ages, who did become apostate and were exiled for their sins. This was for a decreed period, which is now nearly if not already completed.

All who come to Christ have been chosen before the foundation of the world, regardless of race, tribe, or nationality

Ephesians 1:4 He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence

keras said:
Bible prophecy is clear: God's originally chosen people, the House of Israel, whom Jesus came to save; will be redeemed, restored and forgiven.

Due to the northern kingdom's disobedience under the old covenant, God divorced them, effectively making them not his people, and scattered them through Assyria.

jeremiah 3:8 Because faithless Israel had committed adultery, I gave her a certificate of divorce and sent her away.

Hosea 1:9 And the LORD said, “Name him Lo-ammi, for you are not My people, and I am not your God.

2 kings 17:23 Finally, the LORD removed Israel from His presence, as He had declared through all His servants the prophets. So Israel was exiled from their homeland into Assyria, where they are to this day.

I would argue the purpose of this divorce from God, and scattering, and intermingling of the northern kingdom with the surrounding nations was to fulfill the blessing of Ephraim: that Ephraim's offspring would become a multitude of gentiles (nations).

Genesis 48:19 But his father refused. “I know, my son, I know!” he said. “He too shall become a people, and he too shall be great; nevertheless, his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his offspring shall become a multitude of nations.”

However, many from the northern kingdom lived in the southern kingdom Pre-Assyrian Exile, During the Assyrian Exile, and Post Babylonian Exile. Even Luke records a descendant of the tribe of Asher living near Jerusalem.

2 Chronicles 15:9 And he assembled all Judah and Benjamin, along with those from the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon who had settled among them, for great numbers had come over to him from Israel when they saw that the LORD his God was with him.

2 Chronicles 30:11 Nevertheless, some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem

2 Chronicles 30:18 large number of the people—many from Ephraim, Manasseh, Issachar, and Zebulun—had not purified themselves, yet they ate the Passover, contrary to what was written. But Hezekiah interceded for them, saying, “May the LORD, who is good, provide atonement for everyone

1 Chronicles 9:1-3 So all Israel was recorded in the genealogies written in the Book of the Kings of Israel. But Judah was exiled to Babylon because of their unfaithfulness. Now the first to resettle their own property in their cities were Israelites, priests, Levites, and temple servants. These were some of the descendants of Judah, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh who lived in Jerusalem:

Luke 2:36 There was also a prophetess named Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, who was well along in years. She had been married for seven years

Thus, Israelites, who had NOT been exiled out of the northern kingdom, had assimilated with the Israelites of the southern kingdom (Jews). While many of the Israelites, who had been exiled from the northern and intermingled with the surrounding nations, became a multitude of gentiles over a period of 700 years, from the time of Assyria, until the 1st advent, and even beyond.

This is substantiated by Paul quoting hosea 1:10 and 2:23, which is about the northern kingdom in context, as being fulfilled in the 1st century with the inclusion of the GENTILES with the Jews into the vessels of mercy.

Romans 9:24-26 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

So to put it in earthly terms. I tell you I am going fishing for Tuna. I then drag a net behind my boat and catch all kinds of fish: Mahi Mahi, dorado, tarpon, sword fish, AND TUNA. Even though I caught all kinds of fish, my first statement is still fulfilled, that I went fishing for tuna.

So it is with the divorced, exiled, northern kingdom who became gentiles. God promised to that the northern kingdom would one day again be his people. Thus, by God including all gentiles (descendants of Babylon, Persia, Greece, Cush, Edom, etc... AND EPHRAIM), he fulfills His promise.

This is substantiated by what the kingdom of God is like:
matthew 13:47 Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea and caught all kinds of fish.

claninja · Jun 17, 2019

Douggg said:
The land of Israel belongs to the children of Israel as theirs forever.

God UNCONDITIONALLY promised the land to Abraham and his offspring

Genesis 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “I will give this land to your offspring.

Genesis 17:8 And to you and your offspring I will give the land of your sojourn—all the land of Canaan—as an eternal possession; and I will be their God

God CONDITIONALLY promised the land to the nation of Israel through the old covenant. If they were disobedient they would be uprooted from the land.

Deuteronomy 28:63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and to multiply you, so also it will please Him to exterminate you and destroy you. And you will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Paul explains that the unconditional promises (PLURAL) made to Abraham and his offspring are not annulled by the conditional promises of the old covenant because CHRIST is the offspring being spoken of.

Galatians 3:16-18 The promiseS were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise.

Thus, it is Christ who possesses the land and fulfills the promises in Genesis. For he is the inheritor of all things. Jesus was made Lord, and since the earth is the Lord's, it is Christ's, and that includes the land of Israel, as promised in Genesis.

Hebrews 1:2 But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

1 Corinthians 10:26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.”

Douggg said:
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

The old covenant, with all its conditional promises, was only a shadow of Christ.

Hebrews 10:1 For the law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves.

Colossians 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ

Galatians 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian

The old covenant no longer exists.

Hebrews 8:13 By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

Hebrews 10:9 Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second.

You are interpreting the old testament as if the conditional promises of the old covenant are still present. You are taking the shadow as the reality, when it is not. This is the same as nicodemus believing the term "born again" literally means coming out the mother's womb a 2nd time.

John 3:5-12 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.c Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youd must be born again.’ The winde blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but youf do not receive our testimony. If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Christ fulfilled the unconditional Abrahamic promises. It is through Christ that all nations are blessed. It is Christ who inherits the land. The conditional promises of the land to the nation of Israel through the old covenant, the shadow, are no longer in effect as the old covenant is no longer in effect.

Douggg said:
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

The Spirit was poured out on Pentecost in the 1st century. Peter Addresses these recipients as the House of Israel.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:16-17 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Douggg · Jun 17, 2019

claninja said:
.

Did this happen or not, because they rejected Jesus and that He is God come in the flesh? Jesus is speaking in the text....

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

_______________________________________________________

Now look at Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus speaking in the text, having returned to this earth, looking back over the past 2000 years..

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
____________________________________________________

The church is not the house of Israel. It doesn't fit the text. However, Luke 21:24 and Ezekiel 39:21-29 are a direct match !

Ezekiel 38-39 is a 100% fixed in concrete condensed schedule of the end times.

Gog/Magog, followed by the 7 years, then Armageddon and Jesus's return. Zero chance of error.

Douggg · Jun 17, 2019

claninja said:
The Spirit was poured out on Pentecost in the 1st century. Peter Addresses these recipients as the House of Israel.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:16-17 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,

Acts 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Were there still Jews left in the nations at the time of Acts? The answer is yes. And there are still millions of Jews still in the nations. It is not until our time that all the house of Israel will be brought back to the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

@claninja , has it ever occured to you that them in Acts were aware of Ezekiel 39, and were making use of it in similitude to their day, to consider that "to them" they were living in the last days ?

We are living in the actual last days because of the confluence of all the last days prophecies are so evident.

parousia70 · Jun 17, 2019

Douggg said:
We are living in the actual last days because of the confluence of all the last days prophecies are so evident.

So has said every "end times advocate" that has ever opined on the topic in the last 2000 years about their own generation.

And they ALL have one thing in common:
100% failure rate.

I'd be careful hitching my wagon to that horse if I were you.

There is only one group of people in the last 2000 years who's own claims to be living in the "actual last days", at the "actual end of the age", can be fully and completely trusted as 100% true and correct.

keras · Jun 17, 2019

Douggg said:
Were there still Jews left in the nations at the time of Acts? The answer is yes. And there are still millions of Jews still in the nations. It is not until our time that all the house of Israel will be brought back to the land of Israel.

Well your last sentence is right!
Douggg; there is a House of Judah, who are the Jewish people; a visible entity now in the Land and in dispersion. There is also the House of Israel, many people; scattered among the nations and unaware of their ancestry. This is Bible ABC, basic stuff.
It's simple to know who they are;
1/ Jesus came to save the House of Israel and the House of Judah rejected Him.
2/ The Apostles took the Gospel to the Gentiles, referring to all the non Jewish peoples.
3/ The ones who accepted it and became Christians are, mainly; the descendants of the Northern tribes.

Jesus said to the Jews: You [Jews] are not sheep of My flock..... My own sheep hear My voice.... John 10:25-29
The Jews knew this, as they said: Will He go among the Dispersion and teach the Gentiles? John 7:35
Can you understand this? The Jews called those Israelites in the Dispersion; Gentiles, as Paul did too.
The very name Israelite, applies to every faithful Christian; WE are the Overcomers for God, His Victorious ones; the Israel of God.
The whole foolish and childish notion of the Church going to live in heaven, is what messes with your and many other Christians understanding. Get away from false teachings and realize that God has an amazing Plan for His people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.

claninja · Jun 17, 2019

Douggg said:
Did this happen or not, because they rejected Jesus and that He is God come in the flesh? Jesus is speaking in the text....

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Correct, this happened in 70 ad, around 40 years after Jesus was crucified, when the temple was destroyed and the Jews who rejected Christ and remained in Jerusalem were slaughtered and sold into slavery. Jesus makes this clear that it was due to their not recognizing God's visitation (1st advent).

Luke 19:41-44 As Jesus approached Jerusalem and saw the city, He wept over it and said, “If only you had known on this day what would bring you peace! But now it is hidden from your eyes. For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”

Douggg said:
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Ezekiel had been one of the first exiles in Babylon prior to the destruction of the temple, during the reign of Jehoiachin. He began receiving his visions in the 5th year of exile.

Ezekiel 1:-22 In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, on the fifth day of the month, as I was among the exiles by the Chebar canal, the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God.a On the fifth day of the month (it was the fifth year of the exile of King Jehoiachin)

Prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by Babylon, God told Ezekiel to prophecy against the wicked men of Jerusalem. Ezekiel was to tell them, they will "fall by the sword".

Ezekiel 11:1,4Then the Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the gate of the house of the LORD that faces east. And there at the entrance of the gate were twenty-five men. Among them I saw Jaazaniah son of Azzur and Pelatiah son of Benaiah, who were leaders of the people. Therefore prophesy against them; prophesy, O son of man!”

Ezekiel 11:7-10 Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: The slain you have laid within this city are the meat, and the city is the pot; but I will remove you from it. You fear the sword, so I will bring the sword against you, declares the Lord GOD. I will bring you out of the city and hand you over to foreigners; I will execute judgments against you. You will fall by the sword, and I will judge you even to the borders of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

Prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, God even had Ezekiel prophesy that those in Jerusalem, and all the house of Israel that is in Jerusalem, was going to go into exile
Ezekiel 12:8 In the morning the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, has not the house of Israel, the rebellious house, said to you, ‘What are you doing?’ Say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: This oracle concernsb the prince in Jerusalem and all the house of Israel who are in it.’c Say, ‘I am a sign for you: as I have done, so shall it be done to them. They shall go into exile, into captivity.’

It was in the 9th year of exile that Jerusalem was then
Ezekiel 24:1 In the ninth year, in the tenth month, on the tenth day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, write down the name of this day, this very day. The king of Babylon has laid siege to Jerusalem this very day

2 kings 25:1, 21 And in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, on the tenth day of the month, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came with all his army against Jerusalem and laid siege to it. And the king of Babylon struck them down and put them to death at Riblah in the land of Hamath. So Judah was taken into exile out of its land.

2 Chronicles 36:20 He took into exile in Babylon those who had escaped from the sword, and they became servants to him and to his sons until the establishment of the kingdom of Persia

Thus I would argue the context of Ezekiel 39:23 is the Babylonian exile, As Ezekiel had prophesied earlier that Israel would go into captivity and fall by the sword in regards to Babylon coming upon them.

Ezekiel 39:23 And the nations shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity, because they dealt so treacherously with me that I hid my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they all fell by the sword

As we can see, Jeremiah did not fall by the sword during the Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem due to his faith in God.

Jeremiah 39:18 For I will surely save you, and you shall not fall by the sword, but you shall have your life as a prize of war, because you have put your trust in me, declares the Lord.’

Douggg said:
Gog/Magog, followed by the 7 years, then Armageddon and Jesus's return. Zero chance of error.

Let me just make sure I am understanding you correctly. You believe the sending of the house of Israel into exile and falling by the sword, as mentioned in Ezekiel 39:23, is about the romans in 70ad, and NOT the Babylonians in around 605BC? Even though the Ezekiel was written prior and post the temple destruction during the Babylonian Exile?

Douggg said:
However, Luke 21:24 and Ezekiel 39:21-29 are a direct match !

Ezekiel 11:10 and Ezekiel 12:11, which are about the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon in 586 BC, are a direct match of Ezekiel 39:23.

Thus I would argue, Ezekiel 39:21-24 is in regards to Babylon taking Israel into captivity. Ezekiel then prophecies that after that, God will restore the fortunes.

Ezekiel 39:25 Therefore thus says the Lord God: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name.

The prophet Jeremiah substantiates my argument. It is after the Babylonian exile that God will restore the fortunes.

Jeremiah 29:1-14 For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

Douggg said:
Were there still Jews left in the nations at the time of Acts? The answer is yes. And there are still millions of Jews still in the nations. It is not until our time that all the house of Israel will be brought back to the land of Israel.

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

not all of Israel is Israel.
Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel

God stirred up the remnant to return to the land UNDER THE OLD COVENANT.
ezra 1:5 Then rose up the heads of the fathers’ houses of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up to rebuild the house of the Lord that is in Jerusalem

Thus the chosen remnant of Israel was ALL of Jacob.
Micah 2:12 I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob;I will gather the remnant of Israel;

All of the return to the physical land promises UNDER THE OLD COVENANT have been fulfilled. Again the Land was an unconditional promise made to Abraham and his offspring. Paul states that offspring is Jesus. the conditional promises of land under the old covenant were only a shadow of the reality in Christ. The old covenant is no longer in effect and neither are the conditional land promises of the old covenant.

Douggg said:
@claninja , has it ever occured to you that them in Acts were aware of Ezekiel 39, and were making use of it in similitude to their day, to consider that "to them" they were living in the last days ?

What logic are you using to turn Peter quoting from Joel as being fulfilled with the sending of the spirit as a similitude?

Douggg said:
We are living in the actual last days because of the confluence of all the last days prophecies are so evident.

Every generation has said that since the 2nd century, based on how they interpreted scripture, and been wrong. As a preterist, I'll stick with the disciples

1 Corinthians 10:11 these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour

James 5:8-9 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door

Douggg · Jun 17, 2019

claninja said:
Let me just make sure I am understanding you correctly. You believe the sending of the house of Israel into exile and falling by the sword, as mentioned in Ezekiel 39:23, is about the romans in 70ad, and NOT the Babylonians in around 605BC? Even though the Ezekiel was written prior and post the temple destruction during the Babylonian Exile?

Part of the house of Israel went into captivity among the nations in the Assyrian captivity, part during the Babylonian captivity, but Ezekiel 38-39 is mostly about them who went into captivity in 70 AD for rejecting Jesus.

When Jesus returns, there will be none from any of the captivities left in the nations.

In Ezekiel 38-39, there is Gog/Magog, then followed by the 7 years, ending with Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20, and Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned, looking back over the past 2000 years.
_______________________________________________________________

Jesus right now is sitting at God's right hand.

David speaking in Psalms 110:1....
1 (A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.............

4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. (Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?)

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

Verses 5 and 6 is Ezekiel 39:17-20, Armageddon, which Jesus judges the heathen.

claninja · Jun 18, 2019

Douggg said:
Part of the house of Israel went into captivity among the nations in the Assyrian captivity, part during the Babylonian captivity, but Ezekiel 38-39 is mostly about them who went into captivity in 70 AD for rejecting Jesus.

Ezekiel prophesies that God will restore the fortunes after their exile.
Ezekiel 39:25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: Now I will restore the fortunes of Jacob and have mercy on the whole house of Israel, and I will be jealous for my holy name

This prophecy is from a promise IN THE LAW: That after the curses had been poured out, God would restore their fortunes and bring them back into the land
Deuteronomy 30:1-5 And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. If your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of heaven, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there he will take you. And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it.

Daniel confirms the curses of the law had been poured out on Israel
Daniel 9:11-14 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him. He has confirmed his words, which he spoke against us and against our rulers who ruled us, by bringing upon us a great calamity. For under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what has been done against Jerusalem. As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this calamity has come upon us; yet we have not entreated the favor of the Lord our God, turning from our iniquities and gaining insight by your truth. Therefore the Lord has kept ready the calamity and has brought it upon us, for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works that he has done, and we have not obeyed his voice.

Jeremiah confirms the restoring of fortunes occur after the BABYLONIAN EXILE.
Jeremiah 29:10-14 For thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.

The author of Psalm 85 confirms the restoring of fortunes after the BABYLONIAN EXILE.
Psalm 85:1 Lord, you were favorable to your land; you restored the fortunes of Jacob.

Ezra and 1 Chronicles confirm that Israel returned to the land after the Babylonian exile
Ezra 1:5 Then rose up the heads of the fathers’ houses of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and the Levites, everyone whose spirit God had stirred to go up to rebuild the house of the Lord that is in Jerusalem
1 chronicles 9:1-3 So all Israel was recorded in genealogies, and these are written in the Book of the Kings of Israel. And Judah was taken into exile in Babylon because of their breach of faith. Now the first to dwell again in their possessions in their cities were Israel, the priests, the Levites, and the temple servants. And some of the people of Judah, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh lived in Jerusalem

This is confirmed in the NT by the Jews believing they were free and living in the land.
John 8:33 We are Abraham’s descendants,” they answered. “We have never been slaves to anyone. How can You say we will be set free?”

Thus, the conditional promises of restoration UNDER THE LAW, WHICH WERE ONLY A SHADOW pointing to the reconciliation of the world through Christ, were fulfilled.

As scripture clearly states, the Law is a shadow, not the reality.
Hebrews 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities

Colossians 2:17 are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

The law was only in place for God's people until the coming of Christ

Galatians 3:24-25 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian

Hebrews 9:10 but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.

The old covenant was made obsolete at the cross. It was fading and vanishing away in the 1st century.

Hebrews 10:9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

2 Corinthians 3:7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which is fading away.

Thus the conditional promises UNDER THE LAW are no longer in effect, as the old covenant is no longer in effect.

***Douggg, you still appear to believe that being born again literally means coming out of the womb a second time, in that you interpret the old testament, the shadow, as if it is still in place as the reality.

The prophecies of land restoration to the nation of Israel are rooted in the old covenant clause of Deuteronomy 30. But the old covenant is obsolete and so is the conditional promises of land restoration to the nation of Israel.

Douggg said:
When Jesus returns, there will be none from any of the captivities left in the nations.

The first advent freed the captives by the work of the cross under the new covenant; not under the old covenant, which came with conditional promises that were only a shadow.

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

Douggg said:
Jesus right now is sitting at God's right hand.

Amen to that!

The "everlasting" land promise

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Well-Known Member

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