John 12:39-40

Hammster said:

Okay, but if they were in the state that Paul describes, why would they need to be blinded and hardened? It seems to me that they were already in that state.

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As also everyone is blind (to start ) , as other(s) already noted.

As Yahuweh is Pleased to do, as Yahushua PRAISED HIM FOR , He "hides salvation" from "the educated"
and REVEALS SALVATION, and EVERYTHING CONCERNING SALVATION in this life and the next,
TO "LITTLE CHILDREN" (the uneducated),

BECAUSE THIS IS HIS (the Father's) GOOD PLEASURE SO TO DO.

So to some who are blind, the Father OPENS THEIR EYES TO SEE.

To the rest of mankind, the Fahter does not OPEN THEIR EYES TO SEE.

ALL with PERFECT RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT and PERFECT RIGHTEOUS MERCY, as
HIS WORD CONTINUALLY STATES.

Hammster said:

Can you think of any reason why? The way it reads makes it look like there’s a possibility that they could see and believe.

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Hammster said:

Maybe my confusion isn’t clear.

Why blind someone who is already blind?

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To show what Yahuweh wants to show more emphatically , perhaps ?

All in perfect harmony with all of His Word, His Plan, His Purpose, and Salvation in Yahushua.

Simply.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

As also everyone is blind (to start ) , as other(s) already noted.

As Yahuweh is Pleased to do, as Yahushua PRAISED HIM FOR , He "hides salvation" from "the educated"
and REVEALS SALVATION, and EVERYTHING CONCERNING SALVATION in this life and the next,
TO "LITTLE CHILDREN" (the uneducated),

BECAUSE THIS IS HIS (the Father's) GOOD PLEASURE SO TO DO.

So to some who are blind, the Father OPENS THEIR EYES TO SEE.

To the rest of mankind, the Fahter does not OPEN THEIR EYES TO SEE.

ALL with PERFECT RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT and PERFECT RIGHTEOUS MERCY, as
HIS WORD CONTINUALLY STATES.




To show what Yahuweh wants to show more emphatically , perhaps ?

All in perfect harmony with all of His Word, His Plan, His Purpose, and Salvation in Yahushua.

Simply.

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After spending some time with this I believe Isaiah is not speaking about salvation. He speaks of the law which brings healing through obedience. God hardened them so they could not repent and be healed. This led to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Paul, on the other hand, speaks of the inability of natural man to discern the true Christ and believe.

Hammster said:

I need some help here.

39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." - John 12:39-40

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

If the natural man cannot discern spiritual things, why would they need to be blinded?

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What if they are the same thing? God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but we read Pharaoh hardened his own heart. What if God blinds them by passing over them?

Hammster said:

Good point.

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The next question for another discussion is why did Jesus quote this passage as referring to the religious leaders of his day, when Isaiah was referring to God closing the ears of rebellious Israel from listening to the warning of the prophets? "Then I said, 'How long, O Lord?' And he said: 'Until cities lie waste without inhabitant, and houses without people, and the land is a desolate waste, and the Lord removes people far away, and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.'" (Isaiah 6:11-12).

Is this twofold prophecy? It certainly seems so.

Hammster said:

Then why would they need to be blinded? That’s the heart of my question.

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Perhaps it's not so much of a need as it is a judgement from God per Romans Chapter 1.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things." (ESV)

The wrath of God is a terrible consequence, a judgement to be feared, motivation to remind us to stay on the straight and narrow. The wrath of God should cause us to be slow to anger and cultivate a healthy type of reverent fear.

To the blinding, the way I perceive it, people are blinded to different degrees, the extent is not equal from person to person, and even we who have been saved by grace through faith in Christ, do see as through a glass darkly to use Pauline terminology. Even in my "walk" with God, there are times of clarity, and times where everything is kind of fuzzy, times when confidence is shaken. Which is all the more reason to fear God and submit to him through humble supplication.

Hammster said:

It came up in a debate with a synergist last year. I quoted John 12, and they asked if man was depraved by nature, why would Jesus need to blind them? I don’t remember what I said, but I wasn’t satisfied with the answer, and I’ve had trouble finding one.

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Does Romans 1:18-32 help?

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Perhaps it's not so much of a need as it is a judgement from God per Romans Chapter 1.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things." (ESV)

The wrath of God is a terrible consequence, a judgement to be feared, motivation to remind us to stay on the straight and narrow. The wrath of God should cause us to be slow to anger and cultivate a healthy type of reverent fear.

To the blinding, the way I perceive it, people are blinded to different degrees, the extent is not equal from person to person, and even we who have been saved by grace through faith in Christ, do see as through a glass darkly to use Pauline terminology. Even in my "walk" with God, there are times of clarity, and times where everything is kind of fuzzy, times when confidence is shaken. Which is all the more reason to fear God and submit to him through humble supplication.

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Sorry did not see your post before posting.

Hammster said:

I need some help here.

39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." - John 12:39-40

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

If the natural man cannot discern spiritual things, why would they need to be blinded?

Click to expand...

First place to get your clue as to what this is referring to is to look at the context of what, where and why this was said.

Jesus is speaking of what method he will be executed and who is He speaking to? He's speaking to the unbelievers of the Jewish nation.

I don't think this passage is referring to humans generally being dead in trespass and sin. This is speaking of a particular group of unbelieving Jews who God relinquishes them to the fullness of their depravity that they may act to ultimately accomplish God's purpose; which is to provide atonement to not just Jews.

Now consider this in regard to this angle of how Christ's death came about. I'm sure you've read the passages that say blaspheming the Holy Ghost is the only unpardonable sin. Now the next question becomes, do you know what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is?

In short; to blaspheme the Holy Ghost is to see what Jesus does (miracles performed) know that only someone operating in the power and authority of God can actually do this - then turning around and saying that person is doing these things by the power of Satan.

See this is a misconception that many Christians have; that the leaders of Israel just .... didn't really understand. They didn't really know. They were just sadly mistaken. That's not true at all. They knew who Jesus was. They knew He was the Messiah and they knew that meant He was Divine. Now imagine knowing all that and still seeking to destroy this guy? Talk about special form of blindness (and / or special form of stupid)! And now you understand why it talks about God further blinding them.

Now what did He blind them to? It wasn't the truth, because the passage in Isaiah speaks of "seeing they do not see" and "hearing they do not hear". The Scripture says that Pilate knew they brought Jesus to him on account of their envy. Now how do common sinners envy God to the extent of wanting to kill Him? (Again, special kind of blindness and / or special kind of stupid!) That one I haven't really been able to figure out. I'd have to give it more study and contemplation because right now - I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around it.

From God's standpoint though, the purpose was to open the possibility of salvation to the rest of humanity. Could (or why) didn't God do it both ways? That I don't know either? What would have been the consequence if the nation had accepted Jesus as their king? Ultimately setting up of a political kingdom? (Such as the dispensationalist interpret the 1000 year reign as?)

Another poster pointed out the last verse in Isaiah speaks of people setting up idol as a "reason" for blinding them. (That's undoubtedly connected too.)

So, not sure if that answers your question; but pointing into a different direction is the only thing that makes sense with the context of the passage.

Here are some passages that might help:

Matthew 11:25-30 (KJV) 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. 28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

This passage tells us that the Father hid from some and revealed to others. Sight comes by revelation.

2 Corinthians 4:3-6 (KJV) 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The Jews have a veil which they cannot see past and the Gentiles have their wisdom which blinds them. The reprobate is blinded by God in allowing both the god of this world and the Law which is looked to as their hope to block the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. The things of God in Christ are hidden to them and He blinds men lest they see with their eyes and understand with their hearts and believe the Gospel.

The Bible doesn’t emphasize what we can and cannot do, ability, but our willingness. We will not come to Christ that we might have life. That is why the Bible speaks the way it does. There are a few passages the clearly speak to our ability but many that speak concerning our will which does not want Him.

The passage in John 12 quoting Isa. is speaking about why the Jews would not believe even after all the miracles He had done before them. For if they hadn’t been blinded they would not have crucified Christ. He is the Light and many believed but the rest were blinded in order for then to conspire to put to death the very Son of God.

John 1:26 (KJV) John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

John saw His glory as did others who followed Him. But the Scribes and Pharisees were blinded. The very Son of God walked among them, even He whom they looked for, but they didn’t and wouldn’t see Him. They refused Him.

John 8:44-47 (KJV) 44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

The Lord’s condemnation of the Jews was not about their ability to see and believe Him but because they willfully refused to believe Him.

The Righterzpen said:

Now what did He blind them to? It wasn't the truth, because the passage in Isaiah speaks of "seeing they do not see" and "hearing they do not hear". The Scripture says that Pilate knew they brought Jesus to him on account of their envy. Now how do common sinners envy God to the extent of wanting to kill Him? (Again, special kind of blindness and / or special kind of stupid!) That one I haven't really been able to figure out. I'd have to give it more study and contemplation because right now - I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around it.

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Common sinners envy God of His Godhood. They want to take His place. They want to forcefully kick God off of His throne of sovereign might and authority and set themselves up there. They want to rule their own destiny and think that they have the authority to determine their way and worth. They hate God.


Romans 1:18-23 (KJV) 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

In Isaiah, the blindness is not something inherent to humanity, but a punishment in a specific situation. I'm not convinced that it's a universal statement in John either. After all, it goes on to say "nevertheless many ... believed in him"

Hammster said:

I need some help here.

39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." - John 12:39-40

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

If the natural man cannot discern spiritual things, why would they need to be blinded?

Click to expand...

Look at the raising of Lazarus in John 11. This was an undeniable miracle performed by the Christ. It was a common belief among the Jews of that day that they believed the spirit of a deceased person could hover around the body for 3 days. After those three days, it would leave never to return. I think this may be something to do with it
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.[Psalms 16:10] I believe why the Christ was resurrected on the third day was so that His body would not undertake decay. The reason I bring that up is that the Christ came four days after Lazarus was laid in the tomb. They could not fall back on that belief that the spirit could reenter the body and live again.

They saw a man raised from the dead four days after he died. Yet, many did not believe the Christ was/is the Messiah. That's showing God actively blinding their eyes, deafening their ears, and hardening their hearts so they could believe. If God had not done this, they would have believed Him, imo.

convicted1 said:

Look at the raising of Lazarus in John 11. This was an undeniable miracle performed by the Christ. It was a common belief among the Jews of that day that they believed the spirit of a deceased person could hover around the body for 3 days. After those three days, it would leave never to return. I think this may be something to do with it
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol; Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.[Psalms 16:10] I believe why the Christ was resurrected on the third day was so that His body would not undertake decay. The reason I bring that up is that the Christ came four days after Lazarus was laid in the tomb. They could not fall back on that belief that the spirit could reenter the body and live again.

They saw a man raised from the dead four days after he died. Yet, many did not believe the Christ was/is the Messiah. That's showing God actively blinding their eyes, deafening their ears, and hardening their hearts so they could believe. If God had not done this, they would have believed Him, imo.

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Interesting information as to what the prevailing belief was concerning people's souls "sticking around" for 3 days and Lazarus having been dead for four.

The psalm you quoted (16:10) is speaking of Christ. His body did not decay, and if he was still dead today, he still would not have decayed because he had no sin. Decay begins as soon as the process of death commences. A person stops breathing (usually) before the heart stops and the heart stops before the brain is dead. "Death" medically speaking, is a process that takes several minutes to occur.

This psalm is repeated in Acts 2:27. Jesus soul was not left in Sheol. As far as I can determine from the Scripture is that it was "put there" when Jesus was confronted with the angel of death on the Passover. The angel of death removes the breath of life which severs soul from body which usually causes death; unless you have a Divine nature, than apparently you can survive without a soul.

Hammster said:

I need some help here.

39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." - John 12:39-40

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

If the natural man cannot discern spiritual things, why would they need to be blinded?

Click to expand...

Why was Isaiah told to, "Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land."

It is judicial hardening of their hearts. Pharaoh harden his heart against God so God made sure to harden it even more so. Sin prevents us from obeying God's commands and God sends His judgement upon sinners by hardening their hearts.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Hammster said:

I need some help here.

39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." - John 12:39-40

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

If the natural man cannot discern spiritual things, why would they need to be blinded?

Click to expand...

Good question........
to some degree this may fit with Multiverse Theory and how it may fit with Ezekiel chapter 37 happening again and again and again.... which may fit with non-linear time..............

.... and part of the mystery of how "all Israel shall be saved".....

Multiverse Theory and multiple Ezekiel 37 type events.

The Righterzpen said:

Interesting information as to what the prevailing belief was concerning people's souls "sticking around" for 3 days and Lazarus having been dead for four.

The psalm you quoted (16:10) is speaking of Christ. His body did not decay, and if he was still dead today, he still would not have decayed because he had no sin. Decay begins as soon as the process of death commences. A person stops breathing (usually) before the heart stops and the heart stops before the brain is dead. "Death" medically speaking, is a process that takes several minutes to occur.

This psalm is repeated in Acts 2:27. Jesus soul was not left in Sheol. As far as I can determine from the Scripture is that it was "put there" when Jesus was confronted with the angel of death on the Passover. The angel of death removes the breath of life which severs soul from body which usually causes death; unless you have a Divine nature, than apparently you can survive without a soul.

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However, the Christ's body was 100% human as well, and to make the assumption if His body was still in the tomb it would not have decayed is just that, an assumption. That's why I believe His body was resurrected on the third day. On the fourth, it would have started decaying. That is why the women went to the tomb to put spices on His body. It was to keep the stench down. They were expecting His body to start decaying. But I think that is why He rose on the third day.

Dr. James White mentioned that once in a sermon of his. I had heard it for years, but didn't know if it were true, the belief the spirit would hover around for three days. But I had heard that from others before Dr. White mentioned it.

The Righterzpen said:

Interesting information as to what the prevailing belief was concerning people's souls "sticking around" for 3 days and Lazarus having been dead for four.

The psalm you quoted (16:10) is speaking of Christ. His body did not decay, and if he was still dead today, he still would not have decayed because he had no sin. Decay begins as soon as the process of death commences. A person stops breathing (usually) before the heart stops and the heart stops before the brain is dead. "Death" medically speaking, is a process that takes several minutes to occur.

This psalm is repeated in Acts 2:27. Jesus soul was not left in Sheol. As far as I can determine from the Scripture is that it was "put there" when Jesus was confronted with the angel of death on the Passover. The angel of death removes the breath of life which severs soul from body which usually causes death; unless you have a Divine nature, than apparently you can survive without a soul.

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Also remember this, when He was imputed the sins of His elect, it was as if He had committed every sin they ever committed. He knew no sin, but became sin for us...

Yes, He never personally sinned, and will forever be the sinless, spotless, impeccable, Lamb of God. Yet, He became sin and died in our stead. Psalms 75:8 says For a cup is in the hand of the LORD, and the wine foams; It is well mixed, and He pours out of this; Surely all the wicked of the earth must drain and drink down its dregs.

That was the cup He prayed three times to pass from Him, yet no His will, but the Father's will be done. He, when He ingested that cup, ingested our sins, and the Father's wrath was poured out on Him.

convicted1 said:

However, the Christ's body was 100% human as well, and to make the assumption if His body was still in the tomb it would not have decayed is just that, an assumption. That's why I believe His body was resurrected on the third day. On the fourth, it would have started decaying. That is why the women went to the tomb to put spices on His body. It was to keep the stench down. They were expecting His body to start decaying. But I think that is why He rose on the third day.

Dr. James White mentioned that once in a sermon of his. I had heard it for years, but didn't know if it were true, the belief the spirit would hover around for three days. But I had heard that from others before Dr. White mentioned it.

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Yet decay sets in almost immediately upon death. If you've been around dead bodies; you know this. And you can not get away from the passage that says "... neither did his flesh see corruption" Acts 2:31. That statement has nothing to do with "time actually dead".

The women waited till Sunday to go to the tomb because Saturday was the sabbath and they were not to work on the sabbath. Their waiting had nothing to do with whether or not the prevailing Jewish belief was if souls "stuck around" for 3 days.

And technically Jesus hadn't been dead 3 days. He was dead a total of maybe 30 hours. Scripture says he rose "on the third day" doesn't say he was dead 3 whole days.

The passage about "3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth" is not in reference to literal death. That's in reference to the atonement. The atonement commenced Tuesday at sundown when an anonymous woman pours oil over his head when he's eating. He says: "She's done this for my burial." His "burial" commenced then and ended Friday afternoon when he died. That's exactly "3 days and 3 nights".