Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

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Hammster

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And that is why works contribute to justification (just as Sacred Scripture states) without negating God's grace. God rewards our good works, but the good works that God rewards are the very gifts that he gives us.

What St. Paul takes issue with, on the other hand, is the notion that a Christian can approach God as though God owes the Christian a debt for work performed, as if an employee put in a good day's work, and now God his employer is obligated to pay him.
Paul says that faith justifies. Never does he say or imply that works justify, or contribute. He goes to great lengths in Romans and Galatians to say the opposite.
 
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”Works" here refer to perfect flawless works required by the OT law and not to obedience to the Lord's will for Abraham

The law wasn’t given yet.
 
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bcbsr

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Romans 4:2 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God."

"Works" here refer to perfect flawless works required by the OT law and not to obedience to the Lord's will for Abraham DID in fact have an obedient faith Hebrews 11:8,17. Paul in Romans 3 and 4 is CONTRASTING flawless works required by the law FROM obedience to God's will.
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Apparently you don't realize that Abraham lived over 400 years before the Law was introduced. Paul's point was that Abraham did nothing to be justify but believe God's promise. The promise was given in Gen 15:5, and the very next moment upon believing the promise Abraham was justified. This Paul makes analogous to the Christian's saving faith. Upon believing the gospel a person is saved, his fate being finalized, as Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
 
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Shimokita

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He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
— 2 Corinthians 5:21

Where is our righteousness? In our works or in His work?
1) The text states "the righteousness of God". It does not state "our righteousness."

From the outset there is no clear indication that the text is even directed to the question of how a man becomes righteous before God in order to be saved. There are plenty of other ways to view the text (See the Anglican Scholar N.T. Wright, for example).

2) "in Him" does not state anything about the personal righteousness of our Lord being imputed to a believer. You merely reach that conclusion because you look at the text, assume that the it refers to how a Christian becomes righteous before God, and then also assume that there are only 2 possibilities: "righteousness in his works" (i.e. the personal righteousness of our Lord being imputed to a believer) or "righteousness in our works" (i.e. righteousness that we merit by ourselves).

The dichotomy between "righteousness in his works" (via personal imputation of our Lord's righteousness to a believer) and "righteousness in our works" is a false dichotomy. These simply are not the only means by which a man can be made righteous before God.

In a previous post I already explained to you that there is at least one other possibility (that our Lord merited saving grace on the cross, which is then infused into the believer's soul).

Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that the text refers to the means by which a Christian becomes righteous before God, and that this righteousness is accomplished by God and the work of our Lord Jesus on the cross, imputation of our Lord's personal righteousness still does not logically conclude, because imputation is not the only way that this can occur.

Let’s look at James.

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
— James 2:14

Notice what it doesn’t say. It doesn’t say

What use is it, my brethren, if someone has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

That difference is the distinction.
Who cares? The text does not state that the man did not have faith. If I say that I have faith that leaves open two possibilities: 1) I have faith, and 2) I merely state that I have faith but in fact do not have faith. You obviously believe (2) but (1) is more likely because the text literally states "Can faith save him" just as the KJV states (confirm the Greek yourself). Many translations like the NIV like to change it to "can such a faith" or "can that faith" save him, but the text literally states "can faith save him?" Obviously there is no reason to ask that question if the person doesn't have some measure of faith in the first place. Also, verse 17 states "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." The statement is superfluous and rendered entirely meaningless if the man never even had any faith in the first place. The verse does not state "So stating that one has faith by itself . . ." This is kind of what you want to turn the text into, but it simply does not state that.
 
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Shimokita

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Paul says that faith justifies. Never does he say or imply that works justify, or contribute. He goes to great lengths in Romans and Galatians to say the opposite.
Yes he does, right there in Romans 2 (the chapter of Romans that Protestants love to skip over or relegate to a "hypothetical discussion").

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.​
 
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Hammster

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1) The text states "the righteousness of God". It does not state "our righteousness."
We might become the righteousness of God would be infused. We might become the righteousness of God in Him is imputed.

Fortunately, that’s just a supporting verse. We have implicit passages in both Romans and Galatians that spell out that righteousness is imputed (credited) to us.
 
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Yes he does, right there in Romans 2 (the chapter of Romans that Protestants love to skip over or relegate to a "hypothetical discussion").

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.​
This is still Paul showing that all are without excuse. The people he’s describing are not saved. Paul hasn’t gotten there yet. And while verse six is true, Paul says in the next chapter that none are good. None seek after Him.

Then, he talks about those who have sinned under and apart from the law. That’s everyone. And what happens? They all perish.

So looking at the argument in context, it doesn’t fit with your argument. And especially when you look at the argument about justification that starts in chapter 3 and runs through chapter 5. There’s no room for works in any of that, and he especially argues against works.
 
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BNR32FAN

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That’s not true. Paul, Peter, John, etc. never taught that.

Then your saying that every single church established by the apostles fell away from their teaching less than 150 years after Jesus’ ascension and Jesus’ plan to establish the church to spread the gospel to the entire world failed until Martin Luther came along 1500 years later and set everyone straight. St. Iranaeus refuted eternal security and unconditional salvation in his writing Adversus Haereses written in 180AD which has been embraced by the Catholic Church since the day it was written. Please take a moment to read this that he wrote some time between 170-180AD.

1. This expression [of our Lord], How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not, Matthew 23:37 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorantthat the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.But glory and honour, he says, to every one that does good. God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive gloryand honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

AdVersys Haereses Book IV Chapter 37
 
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Shimokita

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We might become the righteousness of God would be infused. We might become the righteousness of God in Him is imputed.

Fortunately, that’s just a supporting verse. We have implicit passages in both Romans and Galatians that spell out that righteousness is imputed (credited) to us.
No, "in Him" does not mean "imputed". That is how your tradition interprets the text, but the text simply does not state anything about imputation.

As for the "implicit" passages, we can debate those as well, but I'm glad you agree that there is no verse in the Bible that clearly teaches that our Lord's own personal righteousness is imputed to a believer. It is perfectly fine by me that your tradition interprets the text that way, but there are other churches with different interpretive traditions.

Personally, I see a very clear statement in James: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." I do not see imputation of our Lord's personal righteousness anywhere at all (and apparently nor did any other Christian in the 1500 years before Luther).

From my perspective, when you argue that salvation is by "faith alone" when no text clearly states that (and one text apparently states the opposite), and then find imputation in texts that do not even use the word impute, I think you are just imposing your theology on the Bible, instead of getting your theology from the Bible (I'm sure you view Catholic doctrine in the same way).

But again, it's cool. We all look at the text in different ways. Many Catholic doctrines (such as purgatory, infusion, etc.) are also not clearly taught in Scripture and we only arrive at them implicitly, so I can understand why you take issue with them from that perspective.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Then why, if we have been made right with God, do we need “works and obedience” to go be with Him?

Because nowhere in the scriptures does it say that a person cannot be made wrong with God after being justified.
 
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That’s really sad. You actually believe that the Good Shepherd cannot find one of His sheep.

What’s really sad is your ignoring the context of the word IF. The word IF is never used when something is guaranteed.
 
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Hammster

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Because nowhere in the scriptures does it say that a person cannot be made wrong with God after being justified.
So your argument is from silence?
 
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Shimokita

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This is still Paul showing that all are without excuse. The people he’s describing are not saved. Paul hasn’t gotten there yet. And while verse six is true, Paul says in the next chapter that none are good. None seek after Him.

Then, he talks about those who have sinned under and apart from the law. That’s everyone. And what happens? They all perish.

So looking at the argument in context, it doesn’t fit with your argument. And especially when you look at the argument about justification that starts in chapter 3 and runs through chapter 5. There’s no room for works in any of that, and he especially argues against works.
Yeah I understand the logical flow that Protestants see in Paul's argument from Chapter 2, through Chapter 3-5. Of course, none of us are good, and none of us can work our way to heaven or otherwise be justified apart from God's grace, which Paul lays out in these chapters. But then in Chapter 6 you can see him returning to the theme of Chapter 2 (that those who do well are rewarded with eternal life):

15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Here he is talking about Christians, but he still says that sin leads to death and obedience leads to righteousness.

You can also see in the text how St. Paul talks about obedience, which leads to righteousness and sanctification, and how sanctification itself leads to eternal life. I think it is basically the same idea as chapter 2, except now the difference is that God has, by his grace and the action of the Holy Spirit in our lives, given us the obedience that leads to the reward (eternal life) St. Paul alludes to in Chapter 2. Before we were incapable of acting obediently, but Christ merited grace for us on the cross, the Holy Spirit pours faith, hope, and love, into our souls, and because of that we can do what nobody could have done before Christ died for us. So when God declares us righteous, it is because he really has made us righteous by pouring his love into us, and we truly become obedient and righteous, rather than some idea of "dung being covered with snow".

What is the "fruit" that leads to sanctification that and eternal life? To me at least it sounds very Catholic. It sounds like more grace being poured into his soul after his initial justification and subsequent obedience, which makes him even more righteous on his way to his final perfection in heaven.

I think we interpret the chapters differently because you sort of view justification as a one time event, whereas we view it as an ongoing process. I would say that when St. Paul is speaking about justification being by faith apart from works, he is generally referring to the initial moment of justification (generally at baptism). Sure, works play no part at that moment, but that does not mean that they play no part at the other moments of justification (from your perspective there are no other moments of justification, so I can understand why you take issue).
 
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Shimokita

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Then your saying that every single church established by the apostles fell away from their teaching less than 150 years after Jesus’ ascension and Jesus’ plan to establish the church to spread the gospel to the entire world failed until Martin Luther came along 1500 years later and set everyone straight. St. Iranaeus refuted eternal security and unconditional salvation in his writing Adversus Haereses written in 180AD which has been embraced by the Catholic Church since the day it was written. Please take a moment to read this that he wrote some time between 170-180AD.

1. This expression [of our Lord], How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not, Matthew 23:37 set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, But do you despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorantthat the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But according to your hardness and impenitent heart, you store to yourself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.But glory and honour, he says, to every one that does good. God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive gloryand honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.

AdVersys Haereses Book IV Chapter 37
It is also fairly amusing to me that Calvinists often refer to Orange, when it explicitly rejects several tenants of their theology.
 
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Hammster

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Yeah I understand the logical flow that Protestants see in Paul's argument from Chapter 2, through Chapter 3-5. Of course, none of us are good, and none of us can work our way to heaven or otherwise be justified apart from God's grace, which Paul lays out in these chapters. But then in Chapter 6 you can see him returning to the theme of Chapter 2 (that those who do well are rewarded with eternal life):

15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Here he is talking about Christians, but he still says that sin leads to death and obedience leads to righteousness.

You can also see in the text how St. Paul talks about obedience, which leads to righteousness and sanctification, and how sanctification itself leads to eternal life. I think it is basically the same idea as chapter 2, except now the difference is that God has, by his grace and the action of the Holy Spirit in our lives, given us the obedience that leads to the reward (eternal life) St. Paul alludes to in Chapter 2. Before we were incapable of acting obediently, but Christ merited grace for us on the cross, the Holy Spirit pours faith, hope, and love, into our souls, and because of that we can do what nobody could have done before Christ died for us. So when God declares us righteous, it is because he really has made us righteous by pouring his love into us, and we truly become obedient and righteous, rather than some idea of "dung being covered with snow".

What is the "fruit" that leads to sanctification that and eternal life? To me at least it sounds very Catholic. It sounds like more grace being poured into his soul after his initial justification and subsequent obedience, which makes him even more righteous on his way to his final perfection in heaven.

I think we interpret the chapters differently because you sort of view justification as a one time event, whereas we view it as an ongoing process. I would say that when St. Paul is speaking about justification being by faith apart from works, he is generally referring to the initial moment of justification (generally at baptism). Sure, works play no part at that moment, but that does not mean that they play no part at the other moments of justification (from your perspective there are no other moments of justification, so I can understand why you take issue).
I think the reason that we interpret these chapters differently is because we aren’t looking at Romans as whole in the same way. I’m seeing it as a whole, where by your last two posts on Romans makes it look like you are taking it in sections.

Granted, my argument in this thread comes primarily from chapter 4, the context is that Paul spends a lot of time in 1-3 explaining how sinful we are. He sums it up in 3:23 with we all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory.

Then the argument of justification by faith alone starts (v. 28). Chapter 4 just goes to further explain this. He finishes chapter 4 with this:

Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
— Romans 4:22-24

Then this

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
— Romans 5:1

We have peace with God by faith through Jesus. No works are needed to have peace. Is there a place for works in the life of the believer? Of course. But not for justification, and not for peace with Christ.
 
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Shimokita

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I think the reason that we interpret these chapters differently is because we aren’t looking at Romans as whole in the same way. I’m seeing it as a whole, where by your last two posts on Romans makes it look like you are taking it in sections.

Granted, my argument in this thread comes primarily from chapter 4, the context is that Paul spends a lot of time in 1-3 explaining how sinful we are. He sums it up in 3:23 with we all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory.

Then the argument of justification by faith alone starts (v. 28). Chapter 4 just goes to further explain this. He finishes chapter 4 with this:

Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
— Romans 4:22-24

Then this

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
— Romans 5:1

We have peace with God by faith through Jesus. No works are needed to have peace. Is there a place for works in the life of the believer? Of course. But not for justification, and not for peace with Christ.
Well I don't have too much issue with the way that you look at these chapters. The difference in how we view the texts is that you view justification as a one-time event that ends at the moment a person is justified, but I view it as a process that continues over the person's entire life. What you refer to as "justification" is only the initial moment of justification from my perspective (and is the primary aspect of justification that St. Paul speaks of in chapters 3 and 4 of Romans).

With respect to the initial moment of justification (that is, the moment where a person is changed from being a child of wrath to a child of God), we would both agree that this is an unmerited gift of God, and that it is appropriated primarily through faith (faith itself also being a gift of God), and apart from works. I would not say "faith alone" with respect to the initial moment of justification because hope and love (also gifts of God) must also be present, but I don't think you have an issue with love and hope being present with faith (most Protestants tend to think of a "saving faith" as a faith in which hope and love are present).

When I say that good works and obedience justify a person, I am not referring to the initial moment of justification (the only moment of justification from your perspective), I mean that a Christian above increases in righteousness (increases in justification).

You would generally think of these increases as a "sanctification" that is categorically different than righteousness (justification). You view the initial (and only) moment of justification as occurring via an imputation of our Lord's personal righteousness to a believer, thus all Christians stand equally righteous before God (and are in fact seen as equal to Christ in righteousness). So this righteousness is not something that has degrees, or that can increase or decrease over time. It is more like an on/off or an "saved" or "unsaved" state.

On the other hand, I view justification (both initial justification and subsequent justification after initial conversion) as the result of God infusing grace (merited by our Lord Jesus on the cross) into a believer's soul. It is a grace from God that is more than sufficient to make us righteous and save us, but it is not our Lord's own personal righteousness. We do not believe that God sees individual Christians as being equal in righteousness as our Lord Jesus. A Christian in a state of grace has a perfect righteousness that is obtained from God via the infusion of grace, but God nevertheless sees our Lord as infinitely more righteous than any Christian (in the degree (amount) of righteousness, but not in the quality of the righteousness which is perfect in both cases). In other words, both our Lord Jesus and a saved Christian have a perfect righteousness before God, but our Lord Jesus is infinitely more righteous in the degree (amount) of righteousness because he obviously accomplished infinitely more by his perfect love, obedience and death on the cross that any other human will ever accomplish in his life.

Perhaps you can think of the Catholic view as sort of looking at the soul as a cup of water. Before a person is saved the water is black, impure. When he is saved God throws out the water and replaces it with pure, clean water. But as we continue to assent to God's working in our lives, he continues to add more and more pure water to the cup. Jesus has much more water in his cup than you or me. We both have pure water but Jesus has an infinite amount of water, while you and I do not.

The above concept would apply to you and me as well, we would both stand perfect before the Lord in righteousness, but we will differ in the amount, according to how much we assent to the Holy Spirit working in our lives to produce good works, which lead to our further justification.
 
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bcbsr

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Yes, faith is a work, 1 Thessalonians 1:3; Mark 2:1-5. Since the work of faith is a necessary condition that GOD Himself has required in order to receive His free gift of salvation, it does not earn/merit the free gift.
1Tim 1:3 says the same a throughout 1John, namely that works of faith are not a condition for salvation but rather the identifying condition of the saved.

That's why Paul said in "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you" 1Thess 1:4 He knows that because their behavior was indicative of the saved. This as opposed to you salvation by works soteriology which basically the same as that of the judaizers.
 
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bcbsr

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When I say that good works and obedience justify a person, I am not referring to the initial moment of justification (the only moment of justification from your perspective), I mean that a Christian above increases in righteousness (increases in justification).
That's what I pointed out in the OP that Catholic believe. Initial salvation by faith, Final salvation by works. It's a different gospel whereby one trusts in their own performance to Finally save them, rather than trusting in Christ to Finally save them.

If so called "initial" salvation whereby it is said, "By grace you have been saved by faith" doesn't finalize one's salvation status, then it's not actually "salvation". Under Catholic soteriology it just puts you at the starting gate and you work to be saved from that point.
 
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bcbsr

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the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Those of us who have put our faith in Christ have already arrived.

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

1Jonh 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Apparently you don't view yourself as have been qualified to have eternal life at this point. Yeh I would agree with that.
 
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