As a Christian, how many of you believe in evolution?

xianghua said:

realy? where is the answer of how many mutations we need to make the trap moving?

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It looks like you have fallen into the trap of believing your own propaganda--that creatures stay the same until a mutation comes along. Meditate on this: the name of the theory we are discussing is evolution by random variation and natural selection, not mutation and natural selection. Natural selection acts on randomly distributed heritable phenotypic variation. Mutation contributes to that variation but is not the sole cause of it.

xianghua said:

realy? where is the answer of how many mutations we need to make the trap moving?

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Without the genome sequence of some specific initial plant generation, some specific end generation, and samples of the intermediate generations, it's probably impossible to say exactly; why do you want to know?

xianghua said:

realy? where is the answer of how many mutations we need to make the trap moving?

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Are you aware that plants move quite a bit on their own? They respond to touch, light and gravity.

A person has to be very careful gathering squash blossoms in the evening because bees often get trapped overnight when the blossoms close up for the day (they get out again the next morning). Check for buzzing before picking!

DaisyDay said:

A person has to be very careful gathering squash blossoms in the evening because bees often get trapped overnight when the blossoms close up for the day (they get out again the next morning). Check for buzzing before picking!

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I shall inform my Head Gardener immediately. I shouldn't want one of the servants to get injured.

DaisyDay said:

Are you aware that plants move quite a bit on their own? They respond to touch, light and gravity.

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the question is how they got the ability to move in the first place. and im not sure that the mechanism is the same in the venus trap and a regular plant.

xianghua said:

the question is how they got the ability to move in the first place.

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Are you sure that's the question? As far as I know, living things move.

and im not sure that the mechanism is the same in the venus trap and a regular plant.

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But you're also not sure that the mechanism(s) are different.

DaisyDay said:

Are you sure that's the question? As far as I know, living things move.

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sure they move. but by a complex system.

xianghua said:

sure they move.

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Well then.

but by a complex system.

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So? If all living things move, whether or not by "a" (or various) "complex system(s)", then since plants are living things, why would they not have simply inherited the same ability to move?

DaisyDay said:

Well then.

So? If all living things move, whether or not by "a" (or various) "complex system(s)", then since plants are living things, why would they not have simply inherited the same ability to move?

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ok but how such a system evolved in the first place? i we want to add a moving system to a creature, it cant be done by small steps since any moving system need at least several parts.

xianghua said:

ok but how such a system evolved in the first place? i we want to add a moving system to a creature, it cant be done by small steps since any moving system need at least several parts.

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At this point I feel obligated to point out that any multicellular organism is made up of multiple parts called "cells". In fact, each of those cells includes a number of moving parts. Just sayin'.

xianghua said:

ok but how such a system evolved in the first place? i we want to add a moving system to a creature, it cant be done by small steps since any moving system need at least several parts.

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Who is "adding" if all living things move? Haven't you ever watched a sunflower tracking the sun in the sky? It moves its face as the sun moves. How many parts do you think that takes?

xianghua said:

ok but how such a system evolved in the first place? i we want to add a moving system to a creature, it cant be done by small steps since any moving system need at least several parts.

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Support this, with data, sourced and with scientific conclusions.

xianghua said:

ok but how such a system evolved in the first place? i we want to add a moving system to a creature, it cant be done by small steps since any moving system need at least several parts.

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Still making that baseless claim, I see. Too bad that you can't defend it.

DaisyDay said:

Who is "adding" if all living things move? Haven't you ever watched a sunflower tracking the sun in the sky? It moves its face as the sun moves. How many parts do you think that takes?

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at least several. even you as intelligent designer cant make a motion system that base on a single part. right? so we need at least several parts.

xianghua said:

at least several. even you as intelligent designer cant make a motion system that base on a single part. right?

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Why not?

so we need at least several parts.

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What is the least amount of "parts" that the simplest living thing has? And, again, since every living thing does move, why would more "parts" need to be "added"?

xianghua said:

at least several. even you as intelligent designer cant make a motion system that base on a single part. right? so we need at least several parts.

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Define part.

Note, a definition requires precision and accuracy. It must be sufficiently detailed to remove ambiguity. For example a mitochondrion is part of a cell, so you need to make clear at what scale, or by what means we recognise a "part".

Ophiolite said:

Define part.

Note, a definition requires precision and accuracy. It must be sufficiently detailed to remove ambiguity. For example a mitochondrion is part of a cell, so you need to make clear at what scale, or by what means we recognise a "part".

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i basically refer to a gene or a protein domain in general.

DaisyDay said:

Why not?

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maybe because its near impossible? can you show me how you can make a motion system (that can move a robotic arm for instance) with a single part?

DaisyDay said:

What is the least amount of "parts" that the simplest living thing has? And, again, since every living thing does move, why would more "parts" need to be "added"?

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because they move by different systems. in animals we are talking about a muscular system when in bacteria we have other systems like a flagellum etc.

xianghua said:

i basically refer to a gene or a protein domain in general.

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Well, I wasn't expecting that. There is no component of an organic being that I am aware of that arises from a single gene/domain. The mousetrap analogy, introduced by Behe, which you appeared to be using for your argument, relates to parts of the phenotype, not parts of the genotype. You have gone from the stratosphere of ill considered analogy to the interstellar space of "not even wrong".

xianghua said:

maybe because its near impossible? can you show me how you can make a motion system (that can move a robotic arm for instance) with a single part?

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A robotic arm is very sophisticated, not simple at all.

because they move by different systems. in animals we are talking about a muscular system when in bacteria we have other systems like a flagellum etc.

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We're talking about a plant. Plants move their leaves, twine the tendrils and open and shut their flowers. Why would something have to be "added" rather than simply modified for the Venus fly trap to shut its trap?