Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

CharismaticLady · Jun 15, 2019

eleos1954 said:
"No amount of sin is too much to be atoned for by a perfect savior whose righteousness is imputed to the sinner who reaches out in faith."

and reaching out in faith includes repentance - faith and repentance go together.

this of course would exclude blasphemy (total rejection) of the Holy Spirit and of course in that case both faith and repentance are absent.

I agree. When a sinner comes to Christ in repentance, he is forgiven. It doesn't matter how heinous his past crimes were. Where we disagree is that the sinner continues to sin willfully after cleansing. Are you saying the sinner is given no power to not sin willfully again?

eleos1954 · Jun 15, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
I agree. When a sinner comes to Christ in repentance, he is forgiven. It doesn't matter how heinous his past crimes were. Where we disagree is that the sinner continues to sin willfully after cleansing.

continues .... is the key word ..... if one continues, continuously rejecting the Holy Spirit, He will remove His Spirit. If one continues to abide in Him His Spirit remains.

The cleansing (sanctification) is a life-long continuing cleansing process. We sin, and will sin, and also repeat sins. He brings us to repentance, and we are forgiven. We abide in Him and Him in us.

He works in us and He will finish His work

Philippians 1

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately (continuously do not abide in Him) after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

no longer remains a sacrifice ... It is through His sacrifice that salvation is made possible, it is continuing in Him until our earthly death that brings salvation to completion.

Revelation 2:5

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place, unless you repent.

So how do we know? We are brought to repentance, and we do repent and are forgiven. If we are not brought to repentance then the Spirit is not in us.

Josh Carver · Jun 15, 2019

Sin does not separate us from God. Christ Jesus died to forgive sinners.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 15, 2019

Josh Carver said:
Sin does not separate us from God. Christ Jesus died to forgive sinners.

ISAIAH 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

CharismaticLady · Jun 15, 2019

eleos1954 said:
continues .... is the key word ..... if one continues, continuously rejecting the Holy Spirit, He will remove His Spirit. If one continues to abide in Him His Spirit remains.

The cleansing (sanctification) is a life-long continuing cleansing process. We sin, and will sin, and also repeat sins. He brings us to repentance, and we are forgiven. We abide in Him and Him in us.

He works in us and He will finish His work

Philippians 1

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately (continuously do not abide in Him) after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

no longer remains a sacrifice ... It is through His sacrifice that salvation is made possible, it is continuing in Him until our earthly death that brings salvation to completion.

Revelation 2:5

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place, unless you repent.

So how do we know? We are brought to repentance, and we do repent and are forgiven. If we are not brought to repentance then the Spirit is not in us.

Didn't the law show us our sin also? And the blood of bulls and goats covered them.

It seems now you are saying, it is now the Holy Spirit whose job it is to show us our sin. And then the blood of Jesus cleanses them.

In your doctrine there doesn't seem to be a big difference to us to be under the law or in the Spirit. Either way our sins are not seen any longer. All that's changed is a bunch of animals are saved. Really? That's all we gained from His death in this life?

Wordkeeper · Jun 15, 2019

eleos1954 said:
continues .... is the key word ..... if one continues, continuously rejecting the Holy Spirit, He will remove His Spirit. If one continues to abide in Him His Spirit remains.

The cleansing (sanctification) is a life-long continuing cleansing process. We sin, and will sin, and also repeat sins. He brings us to repentance, and we are forgiven. We abide in Him and Him in us.

He works in us and He will finish His work

Philippians 1

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately (continuously do not abide in Him) after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

no longer remains a sacrifice ... It is through His sacrifice that salvation is made possible, it is continuing in Him until our earthly death that brings salvation to completion.

Revelation 2:5

Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place, unless you repent.

So how do we know? We are brought to repentance, and we do repent and are forgiven. If we are not brought to repentance then the Spirit is not in us.

How do we abide?

How does Christ work in us?

dougangel · Jun 15, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
ISAIAH 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

1 Peter 4:7-9 New International Version (NIV)

8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling.

I think it's really complicated. For every verse you show me like that I can show you verses on mercy and grace.
Take peters denial of Jesus.
In my own life Jesus has had grace with me with things and It's taken a long time to work some things out and I've had to just stand on faith with some things. I find as I conquer some things the lord has more for me to work on. So the lord has definitely had grace in my life.

PaulCyp1 · Jun 15, 2019

Luther had many bizarre ideas. Sin is the only thing that can separate from salvation. Not from God's love, He loves us no matter what we do. But it is up to us to respond to that love, or to reject it by choosing to do what He has forbidden.

CharismaticLady · Jun 15, 2019

Josh Carver said:
Sin does not separate us from God. Christ Jesus died to forgive sinners.

Just forgive? Nothing else?

Contenders Edge · Jun 15, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

That is a difficult question and one that requires a lot of study because there are scriptures that those on both sides of the debate use to make a compelling case, but if we were put together the scriptures both sides use to make their case, we might be given more clarity into the matter.

While I do believe in eternal security, why ever would anyone want to abuse the grace by which we are saved through our faith in Christ and use it as a license to continue sinning unrepentantly? It was never meant to be used in such a way which scripture makes clear. (Rom. 3:31, 6:1-2, 15)

Why ever would we put God to the test in this way at risk to our very souls?

Phil W · Jun 15, 2019

Oscarr said:
I never said that.

That is the only outcome of your POV.

So, if God has given us everything we need to be perfectly obedient, why has no one achieved perfect obedience?

It isn't "us" that makes it happen, it is God.
His gift of repentance alone makes us able to be non-sinners.
"Turn from" sin, and don't go back!
Then there is His way for allowing the "flesh" to be killed, with the affections and lusts. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
And we can't forget about the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Nobody with the "mind of Christ" will offend God.

Just one impatient word, one evil thought, one little resentment, and, whoops! There blows your perfect obedience!!!

Yup, but in Christ none of that can happen, as there is no sin in Christ.
God's seed cannot bear evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)

God won't let those that love Him fester in a cesspool of sin.

Wordkeeper · Jun 15, 2019

Phil W said:
That is the only outcome of your POV.

It isn't "us" that makes it happen, it is God.
His gift of repentance alone makes us able to be non-sinners.
"Turn from" sin, and don't go back!
Then there is His way for allowing the "flesh" to be killed, with the affections and lusts. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
And we can't forget about the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Nobody with the "mind of Christ" will offend God.

Yup, but in Christ none of that can happen, as there is no sin in Christ.
God's seed cannot bear evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)

God won't let those that love Him fester in a cesspool of sin.

Can you give some examples, maybe one from OT and another from NT of some who turned from sin and didn't go back in Scripture?

SoldierOfTheKing · Jun 16, 2019

You cannot out-sin the grace of God. There is no sin so vile that the blood of Christ cannot wash it clean.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 16, 2019

Phil W said:
That is the only outcome of your POV.

It isn't "us" that makes it happen, it is God.
His gift of repentance alone makes us able to be non-sinners.
"Turn from" sin, and don't go back!
Then there is His way for allowing the "flesh" to be killed, with the affections and lusts. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24)
And we can't forget about the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Nobody with the "mind of Christ" will offend God.

Yup, but in Christ none of that can happen, as there is no sin in Christ.
God's seed cannot bear evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)

God won't let those that love Him fester in a cesspool of sin.

Just make sure that you don't go into the 300 year old heresy that taught "all of Christ and none of us" which causes people to go astray by thinking that Christ was going to do everything to ensure our sanctification, and so they never tried to stop sinning.

LoveGodsWord · Jun 16, 2019

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ ISAIAH 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Your response...

dougangel said:
1 Peter 4:7-9 New International Version (NIV)

8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling.

I think it's really complicated. For every verse you show me like that I can show you verses on mercy and grace.
Take peters denial of Jesus.
In my own life Jesus has had grace with me with things and It's taken a long time to work some things out and I've had to just stand on faith with some things. I find as I conquer some things the lord has more for me to work on. So the lord has definitely had grace in my life.

Nothing in your post says that sin does not seprate us from God. I am not even sure what you are responding to as only scripture was posted in response to someone else saying unrepentant sin does not separate us from God.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 16, 2019

LoveGodsWord said:
Your response...

Nothing in your post says that sin does not separate us from God. I am not even sure what you are responding to as only scripture was posted in response to someone else saying unrepentant sin does not separate us from God.

Surely the arm of the Lord is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.

Click to expand...

So far, so good. If we left it there, it may apply to anyone who sins.

3 For your hands are stained with blood,
your fingers with guilt.

Click to expand...

Oh. That's a bit different. A believer who is not perfect in obedience has his hands stained with blood??

Your lips have spoken falsely,
and your tongue mutters wicked things.

Click to expand...

Does this mean that the believers tell lies all the time, and they are muttering evil things instead of godly prayers? Doesn't seem right to me...

4 No one calls for justice;
no one pleads a case with integrity.
They rely on empty arguments, they utter lies;
they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.

Click to expand...

So, justice is missing, no integrity, relying on empty arguments instead of the Word of God and again, they tell lies, and are full of trouble and evil. Doesn't sound like an ordinary believer to me. Sounds like someone who has deliberately walked away from God.

5 They hatch the eggs of vipers
and spin a spider’s web.
Whoever eats their eggs will die,
and when one is broken, an adder is hatched.
6 Their cobwebs are useless for clothing;
they cannot cover themselves with what they make.

Click to expand...

This doesn't sound like an ordinary believer who has battles with his flesh and sometimes fails.

Their deeds are evil deeds,
and acts of violence are in their hands.

Click to expand...

So, you are saying that those believers who don't come up to your standards of holiness are continually doing evil deeds and performing violent acts?

7 Their feet rush into sin;
they are swift to shed innocent blood.
They pursue evil schemes;
acts of violence mark their ways.

Click to expand...

Doesn't sound like an ordinary believer to me.

8 The way of peace they do not know;
there is no justice in their paths.
They have turned them into crooked roads;
no one who walks along them will know peace"

Click to expand...

(Isaiah 50:1-8)

This passage talks about those who have turned right away from God and are living and walking in the deeds of the flesh. These are ones who are not filled with the Spirit, and those who associate with them will lose the peace of God in themselves.

If you are going to use verse 2 to describe ordinary believers who struggle with sin in their lives, and who have the battle between the flesh and the Spirit, and whose sanctification is not yet perfect, you need to use the whole eight verses, because they are all describing the same sort of person.

You are, in effect, saying that those who have not come up to your standard of sanctification are not saved, and their hearts are still evil. If you haven't got to the point where your own sanctification is perfect, then those verses have to apply to you as well!

LoveGodsWord · Jun 16, 2019

Oscarr said:
So far, so good. If we left it there, it may apply to anyone who sins.

Oh. That's a bit different. A believer who is not perfect in obedience has his hands stained with blood??

Does this mean that the believers tell lies all the time, and they are muttering evil things instead of godly prayers? Doesn't seem right to me...

So, justice is missing, no integrity, relying on empty arguments instead of the Word of God and again, they tell lies, and are full of trouble and evil. Doesn't sound like an ordinary believer to me. Sounds like someone who has deliberately walked away from God.

This doesn't sound like an ordinary believer who has battles with his flesh and sometimes fails.

So, you are saying that those believers who don't come up to your standards of holiness are continually doing evil deeds and performing violent acts?

Doesn't sound like an ordinary believer to me.

This passage talks about those who have turned right away from God and are living and walking in the deeds of the flesh. These are ones who are not filled with the Spirit, and those who associate with them will lose the peace of God in themselves.

If you are going to use verse 2 to describe ordinary believers who struggle with sin in their lives, and who have the battle between the flesh and the Spirit, and whose sanctification is not yet perfect, you need to use the whole eight verses, because they are all describing the same sort of person.

You are, in effect, saying that those who have not come up to your standard of sanctification are not saved, and their hearts are still evil. If you haven't got to the point where your own sanctification is perfect, then those verses have to apply to you as well!
So far, so good. If we left it there, it may apply to anyone who sins.

Oh. That's a bit different. A believer who is not perfect in obedience has his hands stained with blood??

Does this mean that the believers tell lies all the time, and they are muttering evil things instead of godly prayers? Doesn't seem right to me...

So, justice is missing, no integrity, relying on empty arguments instead of the Word of God and again, they tell lies, and are full of trouble and evil. Doesn't sound like an ordinary believer to me. Sounds like someone who has deliberately walked away from God.

This doesn't sound like an ordinary believer who has battles with his flesh and sometimes fails.

So, you are saying that those believers who don't come up to your standards of holiness are continually doing evil deeds and performing violent acts?

Doesn't sound like an ordinary believer to me.

This passage talks about those who have turned right away from God and are living and walking in the deeds of the flesh. These are ones who are not filled with the Spirit, and those who associate with them will lose the peace of God in themselves.

If you are going to use verse 2 to describe ordinary believers who struggle with sin in their lives, and who have the battle between the flesh and the Spirit, and whose sanctification is not yet perfect, you need to use the whole eight verses, because they are all describing the same sort of person.

You are, in effect, saying that those who have not come up to your standard of sanctification are not saved, and their hearts are still evil. If you haven't got to the point where your own sanctification is perfect, then those verses have to apply to you as well!

ISAIAH 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

So your agreeing with me that known unrepentant sin separates us from God just like the scriptures said the first time? Thankyou.

TheSeabass · Jun 16, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
What do you believe about Christians committing willful sins of lawlessness? Here is a Statement from Martin Luther: "(For those in Christ) even if we were to commit murder and adultery 1000 times a day it would not separate us from God."

Do you believe as Martin Luther whose statement evolved into the OSAS doctrine, or not? Can someone be assured of salvation if they willfully sin like stated with no repentance? Are they still the "elect"?

Romans 6:1-2

Paul's response to any idea that "grace only" saves is "God forbid". Receiving God's grace is conditional upon being obedient to God's commands as in not murdering, not committing adultery. Grace will not save a person who willfully, impenitently lives in sin. Romans 6:16 we are all serving either;
1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness

Again, those who serve sin unto death do not receive grace as those who obey unto righteousness do receive God's grace. Salvation requires both God's grace and man's obedience.

fhansen · Jun 16, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
First off, to make it clear that to a certain extent we all "sin willfully". When the Scripture talk about adulterers, idolators, fornicators, drunks etc. won't inherit the kingdom of God; it's speaking of people who live that lifestyle with no serious conviction or desire to overcome their sin. If one's spouse dies and they find themselves a little to frequently in the wine bottle, doesn't mean they've "lost their salvation". Yet if they never overcome that sin; that is evidence that they were never saved to begin with.

Now someone who once believed they were redeemed and comes to the conclusion that they aren't because there is no evidence of obedience in their life; does not mean they have lost the possibility of being redeemed. It may just not have happened yet.

Those who are elect were elect from the foundations of the world. They will repent and believe unto salvation at some point in life. God in His omnipotence will not loose them.

Someone who is truly regenerated though, has the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

The indwelling Spirit is the agent that actually causes faith, repentance, trust, "sanctification" etc. All who are elect are indwelt by the Holy Ghost. All who are true believers are elect. The Holy Spirit is the agent that compels one to obedience. A believer may still "willfully sin", but will be ever increasingly convicted of that until they repent.

Again though, if they never repent, that is evidence that they were never saved to begin with. You can not loose your salvation.

Now the scary thing is there are a lot of people who think they are saved but they aren't. Question then becomes, how do you know if you're saved.
Simple answer: Do you obey God.
More complicated answer: Understanding what it means to obey God. And understanding that does not mean adhering to a legalistic code of conduct.

And at the same time we certainly can't be led to understand that breaking a legalistic code of conduct, breaking the Law IOW, is obedience of God. To put it another way, while the Law cannot justify us- because only God can do that-the Law still tells us what justice or righteousness "looks like", and so we'll still be judged by it, judged by our love to put it accurately, because "love fulfills the Law".

harko · Jun 16, 2019

This is ridiculous ! Jesus death did not give us a free licence to sin !
Of course we will still sin but to deliberately indulge in premeditated sin is wrong! We have a choice over conscious sin.

Does willful sin separate the elect from God?

Does willful sin separate those once saved from God.

No, obedience is "works" and we are not saved by works.

Yes, willful sin must be repented from in order to stay saved.

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