Russia and Ukraine - why?

StanU

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no he is not. and since I am not in the Greek Synod, I am pretty sure my position won't change, as none of them are my bishop, and my bishop only supports Met Onufry.
OK, fair enough. We'll see how it goes; I predict that there will be some practical recognition fairly soon (in the form of, perhaps, permission to theat OCU laity as Orthodox), but there's no way to convince you of this at the moment.
What would you say about communities abroad that would obey the Tomos and go under the EP bishops? Or even bishops; Michael LeRouche of France already said he'll obey and that he considers himself subordinate to the Greek Orthodox Archbishop. What about people like him?
(I realize this might be an academic exercise. The half dozen or so KP parishes in North America would have already joined EP if they wanted and may well stay in limbo for short to medium term).
 
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StanU

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No, //they// did not officially release anyone. Evstraty Zorya claimed on his FB page that Archimandrite Epiphanios' local bishop released him - so that's one bishop, not the Synod (and even this info is unconfirmed). But this would be no surprise - we already know there are individual bishops within the Greek Church that support what Constantinople has done. Perhaps the Greek Church will recognize the OCU, but it hasn't happened yet.
OK, we'll know soon enough I guess. There ARE pictures of Bp. Epiphanos' former bishop gifting him a Panagiya after his ordination, so this is far from unconfirmed.
 
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Platina

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OK, we'll know soon enough I guess. There ARE pictures of Bp. Epiphanos' former bishop gifting him a Panagiya after his ordination, so this is far from unconfirmed.
Epiphanios visited and was given a Panagia by Metropolitan Nicholas of Fthiotida.

The bishop that allegedly released him was Metropolitan Ingatius of Demetrias and Almyros.
 
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ArmyMatt

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OK, fair enough. We'll see how it goes; I predict that there will be some practical recognition fairly soon (in the form of, perhaps, permission to theat OCU laity as Orthodox), but there's no way to convince you of this at the moment.
What would you say about communities abroad that would obey the Tomos and go under the EP bishops? Or even bishops; Michael LeRouche of France already said he'll obey and that he considers himself subordinate to the Greek Orthodox Archbishop. What about people like him?
(I realize this might be an academic exercise. The half dozen or so KP parishes in North America would have already joined EP if they wanted and may well stay in limbo for short to medium term).

again, I am not a bishop. if something like that happens, I will have to see what my bishop says.
 
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rusmeister

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Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine victim. There's no equivalency. There are a lot of foulups on Ukraine's side, and Poroshenko lost his post because of that, but it isn't any of Russia's business now is it?


Sigh. Until 2014 they were quite amicable. Then Russia invaded. Also, Russia has a very particular view of what "the natural ties of relationship" actually are; thank you, no.


Even if "flirting" with NATO was wrong, "equally"? "EQUALLY"???
BTW, NATO is the only reason Russia doesn't have its fingers in Latvia right now, and that's why Ukraine must not just "flirt" but strive to become a full member. And this goal is now in Ukrainian Constitution.


Get. back. to. your. own. borders. And then talk. OK?

This reveals everything. If you wish to think you really understand a controversy, it is necessary to understand both sides of it, including where the side that is ultimately wrong (if such exists) happens to be right in some aspect or other, and vice-versa.
You have no perception of the Russian point of view.
I, on the other hand, do get the Ukrainian one. I also get the ex-Soviet one.

The fact that you are unaware of the growing tension between two peoples, who had lived together in a mixed fashion for centuries, which accelerated between 2008 and 2014 with the increase of a more radical Ukrainian nationalism which sought the suppression of its Russian minority, including the forbidding of the use of the Russian language, hitherto always having been held to be normal, and what the expansion of NATO means for Russia (what does having your country surrounded by enemy bases mean?), proven by the solid denial and blocking of Russian membership in NATO, makes your position appear to be lopsided partisanism, not amenable to reason.

I’m not going to go 25 rounds on this. I WILL speak to the peanut gallery if necessary. You have to be able to convince people who honestly disagree with you, who are open to honest reconsideration of their own position. You cannot convince someone who is determined to hold a position regardless of any counter-considerations that might be raised. It’s a waste of time and not spiritually good for us to do so.
 
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Sorgen

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This reveals everything. If you wish to think you really understand a controversy, it is necessary to understand both sides of it, including where the side that is ultimately wrong (if such exists) happens to be right in some aspect or other, and vice-versa.
You have no perception of the Russian point of view.
I, on the other hand, do get the Ukrainian one. I also get the ex-Soviet one.

The fact that you are unaware of the growing tension between two peoples, who had lived together in a mixed fashion for centuries, which accelerated between 2008 and 2014 with the increase of a more radical Ukrainian nationalism which sought the suppression of its Russian minority, including the forbidding of the use of the Russian language, hitherto always having been held to be normal, and what the expansion of NATO means for Russia (what does having your country surrounded by enemy bases mean?), proven by the solid denial and blocking of Russian membership in NATO, makes your position appear to be lopsided partisanism, not amenable to reason.

Russia attempted to join NATO in the 1950s to undermine the alliance.

Russia is corrupt and authoritarian. They look at their neighbors like a cat looks at its prey, waiting for the right moment to move in and kill. Most of their neighbors were subjugated and starved by the Russian or Soviet Empires. Russia has attacked several of its neighbors in recent years. Putin has made it clear he intends to rebuild the empire, that is subjugate his neighbors, through a series of complex and careful moves.

What neighbor of Russia wouldn't want to join a multinational alliance of democracies? The Russian propaganda that THEY are the victim is absurdly hilarious.
 
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Not David

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Russia attempted to join NATO in the 1950s to undermine the alliance.

Russia is corrupt and authoritarian. They look at their neighbors like a cat looks at its prey, waiting for the right moment to move in and kill. Most of their neighbors were subjugated and starved by the Russian or Soviet Empires. Russia has attacked several of its neighbors in recent years. Putin has made it clear he intends to rebuild the empire, that is subjugate his neighbors, through a series of complex and careful moves.

What neighbor of Russia wouldn't want to join a multinational alliance of democracies? The Russian propaganda that THEY are the victim is absurdly hilarious.
I didn't know the antichristian European democracies were a model of good.
 
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Sorgen

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I didn't know the antichristian European democracies were a model of good.

It is funny how governments and politicians abuse religion to get support. It's even funnier when you see someone sincerely buy into it.

That makes it okay for dictator Putin to invade countries - he's freeing states from the evil influence of the unChristian democratic west. If Russia invaded Finland and converted their churches, there would be people here praising Putin for it. That's scary.
 
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StanU

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This reveals everything. If you wish to think you really understand a controversy, it is necessary to understand both sides of it, including where the side that is ultimately wrong (if such exists) happens to be right in some aspect or other, and vice-versa.
You have no perception of the Russian point of view.
I, on the other hand, do get the Ukrainian one. I also get the ex-Soviet one.

The fact that you are unaware of the growing tension between two peoples, who had lived together in a mixed fashion for centuries, which accelerated between 2008 and 2014 with the increase of a more radical Ukrainian nationalism which sought the suppression of its Russian minority, including the forbidding of the use of the Russian language, hitherto always having been held to be normal, and what the expansion of NATO means for Russia (what does having your country surrounded by enemy bases mean?), proven by the solid denial and blocking of Russian membership in NATO, makes your position appear to be lopsided partisanism, not amenable to reason.

I’m not going to go 25 rounds on this. I WILL speak to the peanut gallery if necessary. You have to be able to convince people who honestly disagree with you, who are open to honest reconsideration of their own position. You cannot convince someone who is determined to hold a position regardless of any counter-considerations that might be raised. It’s a waste of time and not spiritually good for us to do so.
Why do you think I'm "unaware" of any of this? One can be completely aware of some position and still consider it completely insane. In fact, I didn't actually read "Mein Kampf", but by Klemperer's account ("LTI – Lingua Tertii Imperii" Google and read it, great book), Nazi worldwiew actually had more internal logic than Russianworld (which didn't make it less insane, mind you). In fact, there are striking parallels.

In fact, one of the things I'm aware of is the fact public opinion was solidly against NATO membership - until, you can guess it - 2014. Or, that good portion of modern hard-right in Ukraine, including volunteer militia leadres, are actually Russophone in real life. (I remember reading an interview with Yarosh and Semenchenko, which were probably the most notorious ones. Yarosh fashions himself an ideologue in Bandera tradition and made a point to speak Ukrainian; Semenchenko didn't even bother. They're both from Donetsk region, industrial cities; people of their generation are Russophone there). For people paying attention who are nevertheless not in the radius of Russian "ballistic defense towers" (get the reference?), "forbidding of the use of the Russian language" and "surrounded by enemy bases" are completely paranoid tropes; the fact that over 86% of Russians and scarily substantial minority in Ukraine really think that way is unfortunate.

The point is, "political Russophone" community in Ukraine does not want to have rights of a minority; they want to keep privileges of the imperial titular nation. "Radical Ukrainian nationalists", meanwhile, want to continue to exist as a nation and a state. I lean pretty strongly to the latter position, and do not think Ukraine owes it to Russia to bend over backwards to cater to Russia's damaged psyche. Note that I use "radical Ukrainian nationalist" like Russians do; real far-right does exist there (as it exists in Russia); I think they just formed a "united" list for Parliament under Svoboda Party registration which just might crack 2% support this time (5% is the threshold). They're a bunch of phoneys and deserve to just fade away.

Macro point: there are four Orthodox nations in Russia's "near abroad" (Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, Moldova). Since 1991, Russia invaded and destabilized 3 of them; Belarus avoids this fate (for now) by basically becoming a province of Russia. What does it tell you? Perhaps Russia was threatened by tiny Georgia and Moldova, right?

Also, I'm a post-Soviet immigrant and native Russian speaker. Just so you know.
 
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StanU

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It is funny how governments and politicians abuse religion to get support. It's even funnier when you see someone sincerely buy into it.

That makes it okay for dictator Putin to invade countries - he's freeing states from the evil influence of the unChristian democratic west. If Russia invaded Finland and converted their churches, there would be people here praising Putin for it. That's scary.
+1. Also, it is funny how Russia can still sell itself as a "Christian" nation.
 
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Sorgen

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+1. Also, it is funny how Russia can still sell itself as a "Christian" nation.

Politicians have learned how important it is to play the religious game, and how easy it is to get away with it without being the slightest bit religious.

Trump has proven that you can so ingrain religion and politics that you can be the physical manifestation of all the vices of your religion and still get elected by people who are thoroughly convinced their religion compels them to vote for its opposite.
 
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rusmeister

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What are they considered?
I’m speaking to the idea of what the word means; I always relate that to its etymology. Unless “democracy” actually means “rule by the people”, it doesn’t have much value as a word, or more accurately, it is a lie when used to describe what is in fact plutocracy, rule by the wealthy.
The modern world consists nearly entirely of plutocracies.
 
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rusmeister

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People who criticize Trump do have something to criticize, but if they do not consider why the plutocrats controlling the major parties AGREED to pit Trump against Clinton, sure that the businessman/clown would lose to the professional politician, and taken wholly by surprise when the fluttering rags of what was once close to a genuine democracy actually worked against their plans, as well as what Clinton meant for Christians as a continuation of Obama’s anti-Christian policies, their criticism is not worth considering. It is criticism that cannot envisage the alternatives.
 
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StanU

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People who criticize Trump do have something to criticize, but if they do not consider..., their criticism is not worth considering.

Umm, are you sure that what you're arguing for is "democracy"?

For one, Trump IS a professional politician, inept and corrupt one at that. Criticism from the governed, of ALL political stripes, comes with that bargain.
 
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Platina

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I don't follow. You should consider having a native English speaker proofread your posts, thanks.

Sorry, but a comma before "thanks" is not the proper punctuation. You should have used a period and made "Thanks" its own sentence.
 
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