Is Quran 9:5 Historical Only?

Joyousperson

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A % of Muslims will often quote verse 9:5 to justify why they kill non-Muslims as being a threat to Islam. However Muslim apologists disagree with the above.

Here is an article [not mine] to elaborate on the above;
Countering Islamic Propaganda: 9:5

What the Apologists Want You to Believe

With regard to verse 9:5, the strategy of most apologists is to argue that it is bound to a past historical period by the textual context based on earlier verses. While there is some truth to this, Discover the Truth [DTT] also tries to justify the eviction and slaughter (of those who would not convert to Islam).

According to DTT:

1) The 'pagan Arabs' broke a treaty (and were the first to do so)
2) The act was a 'declaration of war' on the Muslims, who were under attack
3) The response was limited to only those 'pagan Arabs' who were attacking

The Verse 9:5

Quran 9:5. Then when the Sacred Months have passed, then kill the Mushrikun wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform Salat, and give Zakat, then leave their way free.​
How They Do It: 'Adding' to the Quran

Once again, Allah's language is highly inconvenient to the modern-day apologist. When he said Mushrikun in verse 9:5 (meaning those who worship incorrectly), he really meant to say 'those who are attacking you." And when Allah said "slay them wherever you find them", he means "not necessarily wherever you find them but only where they are trying to find you." Likewise, the part about one being safe only if they adopt Islamic practices (salat and zakat) is another way of saying "until you are not being attacked."


How They Do It: Citing Contemporary Apologists and Weak Hadith
A bevy of modern-era apologists are rolled out to assure gullible readers that the verse can't possibly mean what it says. Generally, their arguments involve pulling verses from other suras and knitting them together.

Rather than waste time with this, let's just move on to what the Quran, Hadith and Sira have to say.


How They Do It: Ignoring Reliable Sources
Ibn Ishaq said that that the command to fight applied to all polytheists at Mecca, whether they had broken a treaty or not:"...the polytheists who had broken the special agreement as well as those who had a general agreement after the four months which had been given them as a fixed time" (Ishaq/Hisham 922)Ibn Kathir agrees:When it was the day to make the sacrifices, 'Ali b. Abu Talib arose and made the proclamation as ordered by the Messenger of God. He gave them a period of four months from the day of that declaration for them all to return to some place of safety, or to their own lands. Thereafter there was to be no pact or protection for any polytheists, except for any individual who had a personal agreement with the Messenger of God; that would remain in force until its expiration." After that year, no polytheist made the pilgrimage and no one circumambulated the kabaa (Ibn Kathir v.4 p. 49)This is also in the hadith (Sahih Muslim 7:3125 ). Note that the context is pilgrimage (not war) and it is the non-believers who are being threatened and in need of "safety."

Non-believers who would not leave, according to the Hadith, were killed:"The Prophet recited Suratan-Najm (103) at Mecca and prostrated while reciting it and those who were with him did the same except an old man who took a handful of small stones or earth and lifted it to his forehead and said, 'This is sufficient for me.' Later on, I saw him killed as a non-believer." (Sahih Muslim 19:173) .

How They Do It: Sleight of Hand

DTT pretends that verse 9:13 ("Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first?") refers to a violation by the polytheists that precipitates the "dissolution of obligations" in verse 9:1. In fact, it pertains to past hostilities between the Quraish and Muslims.

Ibn Kathir says that verse 13 "refers to the battle of Badr when the idolaters marched to protect their caravan." (Tafsir) It was not a breaking of any agreement subsequent to Muhammad taking control of Mecca.

DTT also says that verse 9:4 ("excepted are those with whom you made a treaty") means that the next verse is "is only aimed at those who broke the treaty, it did not affect those who abided by the treaty."

It does not mean this at all. Ibn Kathir explains that the exception applies to those pagans who had a special agreement that lasted beyond the four month term. It has nothing to do with anyone else breaking a treaty:What is correct is that those with a pact would have it last for its specified duration, even if for more than four months. Those with pacts devoid of a specified duration would have their pacts expire after four months. (Ibn Kathir v.4 p. 50)

Why They are Wrong

According to the historians, Muhammad had a general agreement with the polytheists that he would allow them to continue their religious practices after taking control of Mecca. Indeed, Sura 2 of the Quran says that keeping people back from the "sacred Mosque" is an abomination. DTT even claims elsewhere that Muhammad marched on Mecca to "free man to follow his religion without persecution."

Once in power, however, Muhammad had a change of heart and narrated verses that dissolved the agreement after the end of the sacred months (ie. the final pilgrimage). The only exception would be those who had a special agreement which lasted a few years beyond this.

While a case may be made as to the historic limitation of the order to kill unbelievers, there is no mention in these verses or in the historical record of any violations of the treaty by the non-Muslims in Mecca at that time. Instead, the reason given is that they are polytheists (9:5 Mushrikun) and "unclean" (9:28). Likewise, the killing is to end when worship is for Allah's religion.

Muslims were in a position of power at the time, and were not under attack. Had they been, then there certainly would not have been a waiting period (ie. "after the sacred months have passed") nor is there any mention of self-defense in the Hadith or Sira. Instead, it is about the worst sort of religious bigotry. The pagans are circumventing the kabaa (engaging in their rituals). Unless they stop this and convert to Islam (ie. pay the zakat and perform salat - Islamic prayer - as 9:5 says) they are to be killed.

The introduction of violence is therefore by Muhammad, who gives non-Muslims four months to vacate Mecca or be slain "wherever they may be found." Here, then, is the double standard so ingrained in the supremacist ideology of Islam. When out of power, religious Muslims whine about equal rights. Once in power, they shut down the rights of others. Underlying it all is the threat of violence.​
 
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JosephZ

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Here is an article [not mine] to elaborate on the above;
The forum rules require that you provide a link to sourced material.

Copyright Legalities, Spamming and Advertising, Signatures
Quoted portions of any work should not exceed 20% of the total work. Materials owned by the Associated Press must be quoted using only one sentence. All quoted copyrighted material must be linked to the web page from which it was taken. Do not violate the copyrights of others or promote another work as your own.

When I googled a sentence from your post it led to the website religionofpeace which is a well known anti-Islamic propaganda site. Below are excerpts from one of the many reviews of this site that can be found online:

We rate The Religion of Peace as Questionable for having an extreme right wing bias, promotion of conspiracy/propaganda, lack of transparency and hate group tendencies.

Detailed Report

Reasoning: Extreme Right, Propaganda, Conspiracy, Lack of Transparency, Hate Group

In review, The Religion of Peace promotes anti-Muslim propaganda through only posting negative information about Islam, such as crimes that may not be related to ones religion, such as this where they link to a Mixed factual source. On the homepage they keep a running count of terror attacks as well as people killed by Muslims in what they call the Jihad Report. Along the right side of the page they publish curated news from a variety of sources.

The Religion of Peace also sources Robert Spencer in articles, who is on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s hate list.

Overall, we rate The Religion of Peace as Questionable for having an extreme right wing bias, promotion of conspiracy/propaganda, lack of transparency and hate group tendencies. (D. Van Zandt 9/15/2017) Updated (6/8/2019)



With regard to verse 9:5, the strategy of most apologists is to argue that it is bound to a past historical period by the textual context based on earlier verses. While there is some truth to this, Discover the Truth [DTT]...

According to DTT:

1) The 'pagan Arabs' broke a treaty (and were the first to do so)
2) The act was a 'declaration of war' on the Muslims, who were under attack
3) The response was limited to only those 'pagan Arabs' who were attacking
The points made by the Islamic site that this article is criticizing answer your question as to whether or not Qur'an 9:5 is historical only. Below are a couple of well sourced articles that I was able to find on that site if you want to read them.

Quran 9:5 – Sword Verse
An Historical Examination Of The Sword Verse – Surah 9:5

You will find similar explanations of Qur'an 9:5 virtually every Islamic source that addresses this verse which means this is the consensus among Islamic scholars and Muslims in general.

So which makes better sense when it comes to getting questions answered about what Islam teaches? Going to anti-Islamic websites hosted by non-Muslims or going Islamic sources hosted by actual Muslims? There is no substitute to learning about what Muslims believe and what Islam teaches than going to actual Muslims. Another alternative is to take some courses in Islamic studies offered from legitimate sources. As a Christian missionary the one I always recommend to those who are considering witnessing to Muslims is this one: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary It's free and while it's just an introductory course, it does go into the History of Islam and many other concepts of the religion which will go a long way in dispelling many of the myths and misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about this religion. I mentioned this course to you in another thread, but you said it would be stupid and a waste of your time to take it, but I hope you will reconsider your position since it is obvious from your posting on this forum and the sources you use that you have been heavily influenced by anti-Islamic propaganda.
 
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Joyousperson

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The forum rules require that you provide a link to sourced material.

Copyright Legalities, Spamming and Advertising, Signatures
Quoted portions of any work should not exceed 20% of the total work. Materials owned by the Associated Press must be quoted using only one sentence. All quoted copyrighted material must be linked to the web page from which it was taken. Do not violate the copyrights of others or promote another work as your own.

When I googled a sentence from your post it led to the website religionofpeace which is a well known anti-Islamic propaganda site. Below are excerpts from one of the many reviews of this site that can be found online:

We rate The Religion of Peace as Questionable for having an extreme right wing bias, promotion of conspiracy/propaganda, lack of transparency and hate group tendencies.

Detailed Report

Reasoning: Extreme Right, Propaganda, Conspiracy, Lack of Transparency, Hate Group

In review, The Religion of Peace promotes anti-Muslim propaganda through only posting negative information about Islam, such as crimes that may not be related to ones religion, such as this where they link to a Mixed factual source. On the homepage they keep a running count of terror attacks as well as people killed by Muslims in what they call the Jihad Report. Along the right side of the page they publish curated news from a variety of sources.

The Religion of Peace also sources Robert Spencer in articles, who is on the Southern Poverty Law Center’s hate list.

Overall, we rate The Religion of Peace as Questionable for having an extreme right wing bias, promotion of conspiracy/propaganda, lack of transparency and hate group tendencies. (D. Van Zandt 9/15/2017) Updated (6/8/2019)




The points made by the Islamic site that this article is criticizing answer your question as to whether or not Qur'an 9:5 is historical only. Below are a couple of well sourced articles that I was able to find on that site if you want to read them.

Quran 9:5 – Sword Verse
An Historical Examination Of The Sword Verse – Surah 9:5

Which makes more sense when it comes to getting questions answered about Islam? Going to anti-Islamic websites hosted by non-Muslims or going Islamic sources hosted by actual Muslims? There is no substitute to learning about what Muslims believe and what Islam teaches than going to actual Muslims. Another alternative is to take some courses in Islamic studies offered from legitimate sources. As a Christian missionary the one I always recommend to those who are considering witnessing to Muslims is this one: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary It's free and while it's just an introductory course, it does go into the History of Islam and many other concepts of the religion which will go a long way in dispelling many of the myths and misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about this religion. I mentioned this course to you in another thread, but you said it would be stupid and a waste of your time to take it, but I hope you will reconsider your position since it is obvious from your posting on this forum and the sources you use that you have been heavily influenced by anti-Islamic propaganda.
I stated it is not mine. I did not quote the TROP site because I don't want to waste time arguing about the site. Note you are quick to attack based on some third party opinion which is not objective. That is nonsense.

Since it is the rule, I had quoted the site.

What authority has the your above site to rate and review the TROP site?
The Religion of Peace - Media Bias/Fact Check
What they have stated of TROP site is merely opinions without any detailed analysis of the content presented in the TROP site.

What is critical here is the arguments and the references, i.e. whether they are justified objectively or not.

Are you saying, if the TROP site state 1 + 1 = 2, then it is not true because you have been brainwashed TROP is not a reliable site?
Note TROP is very open with its tons information [obviously has some margin of error], prove to me the TROP site have been intentionally twisting and lying?

Don't be a coward and rely on your flimsy sites.
Argue the points objectively.
 
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Joyousperson

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The points made by the Islamic site that this article is criticizing answer your question as to whether or not Qur'an 9:5 is historical only. Below are a couple of well sourced articles that I was able to find on that site if you want to read them.

Quran 9:5 – Sword Verse
An Historical Examination Of The Sword Verse – Surah 9:5

You will find similar explanations of Qur'an 9:5 virtually every Islamic source that addresses this verse which means this is the consensus among Islamic scholars and Muslims in general.

So which makes better sense when it comes to getting questions answered about what Islam teaches? Going to anti-Islamic websites hosted by non-Muslims or going Islamic sources hosted by actual Muslims? There is no substitute to learning about what Muslims believe and what Islam teaches than going to actual Muslims. Another alternative is to take some courses in Islamic studies offered from legitimate sources. As a Christian missionary the one I always recommend to those who are considering witnessing to Muslims is this one: The Gospel and Islam - TVSEMINARY Trinity Video Seminary It's free and while it's just an introductory course, it does go into the History of Islam and many other concepts of the religion which will go a long way in dispelling many of the myths and misconceptions that many non-Muslims have about this religion. I mentioned this course to you in another thread, but you said it would be stupid and a waste of your time to take it, but I hope you will reconsider your position since it is obvious from your posting on this forum and the sources you use that you have been heavily influenced by anti-Islamic propaganda.
The DTT site being desperate will give all sorts of defense and excuses. This is typical, but it is factual?

Note the STALEMATE dilemma where we always end up with two views which YOU, me or anyone can make a final judgment whether it is right or wrong.

The fact of the matter is there is a % of Muslims from a pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims will in reality go on to kill non-Muslims based on the point that 9:5 is not historical.

The fact of the matter is, there is the reality of non-Muslims and others who are killed based on verse 9:5 and other verses of the same kind and those 3400++ evil laden verses from the Quran.

I believe based on research, those who believe 9:5 is not historical is more right than wrong based on the whole context of the Quran.
As such the problem is the state of the Quran and Islam that enable such an unavoidable dilemma.
You just cannot ignore that such a reality of the dilemma do not exists.
 
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JosephZ

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A % of Muslims will often quote verse 9:5 to justify why they kill non-Muslims as being a threat to Islam. However Muslim apologists disagree with the above.
Since the percentage of Muslims killing non-Muslims for being a threat to Islam in their eyes and using verse 9:5 to justify their actions is less than 1/10th of 1% of the world's Muslim population, what does that tell you? It tells me that the fraction of 1% of the world's Muslims that believe that way are wrong in their interpretation of that verse. It's pretty much a common sense conclusion to come to don't you think?

The DTT site being desperate will give all sorts of defense and excuses. This is typical, but it is factual?
What makes you feel that site is desperate?

Since this is the consensus among scholars going back to the 7th century as those articles have shown and since virtually every Islamic source that addresses Qur'an 9:5 comes to the same conclusion, then there is little doubt that this is what Islam teaches and what the vast majority of Muslims believe. This will also be what you will learn if you take courses in Islamic history and/or Islamic studies. The only sources where you will hear otherwise are anti-Islamic propagandists and Islamic extremists. So you can either choose to believe the vast majority of Muslims and scholars who teach peace and tolerance or you can choose to believe the tiny minority of people who are anti-Islamic propagandists and extremists who teach intolerance and fuel hatred for others. The choice is yours, but why anyone would choose the latter is beyond me.
 
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Joyousperson

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Since the percentage of Muslims killing non-Muslims for being a threat to Islam in their eyes and using verse 9:5 to justify their actions is less than 1/10th of 1% of the world's Muslim population, what does that tell you? It tells me that the fraction of 1% of the world's Muslims that believe that way are wrong in their interpretation of that verse. It's pretty much a common sense conclusion to come to don't you think?
What has happened to your moral compass?
As we had agreed, even one act of evil and violent must be addressed.

I do not agree with your narrow minded 1% perspective.

Killing another human being is the worst of the immoral acts.
Over the 1400 history of Islam millions, >100 million of non-Muslim, had been killed [wars, genocides, etc.] by those within the 20% percentile of evil prone Muslims inspired by 9:5 and other related verses.
You don't seem to be concern with this.

JosephZ: "They are wrong in their interpretation of that verse."
WHO ARE YOU or any one on EARTH to judge and insist those with the above views based on Quranic and Ahadith are wrong.

So the point here is the STALEMATE Dilemma inherent within Islam, where SOME Muslims will act out their divine duty sincerely to please Allah with the act of killing non-Muslim as ordained and sanctioned by Allah.

What makes you feel that site is desperate?
Note my argument;

DNA wise ALL humans are infected with an existential crisis potential [active in the majority] that generate terrible subliminal pains, anxieties and Angst.

Angst: a feeling of deep anxiety or dread, typically an unfocused one about the human condition [of mortality] or the state of the world in general.
To deal with this terrible and desperate "unfocused" Angst [like near drowning case], the majority turned to religions.
In this case, the theistic believers will naturally defend their religion even to death.

This is how the Muslims above are desperate to ensure their interpretation of their beliefs re 9:5 [historical] is the right one as driven by confirmation bias.​

However, these Muslims from DTT and most Muslims, since they are not Allah cannot insist they are right while the interpretations of others are wrong, so we end up with the STALEMATE Dilemma.
As demonstrated objectively, I believe these desperate Muslims' view are more wrong than right.

Since this is the consensus among scholars going back to the 7th century as those articles have shown and since virtually every Islamic source that addresses Qur'an 9:5 comes to the same conclusion, then there is little doubt that this is what Islam teaches and what the vast majority of Muslims believe. This will also be what you will learn if you take courses in Islamic history and/or Islamic studies. The only sources where you will hear otherwise are anti-Islamic propagandists and Islamic extremists. So you can either choose to believe the vast majority of Muslims and scholars who teach peace and tolerance or you can choose to believe the tiny minority of people who are anti-Islamic propagandists and extremists who teach intolerance and fuel hatred for others. The choice is yours, but why anyone would choose the latter is beyond me.
Note my source quoted the most famous Islamic scholar, Ibn Khatir
Ibn Kathir - Wikipedia

Don't insult your own intelligence by repeating I believe the anti-Islamic propagandists and extremists.
I have already stated what counts is their arguments and supporting evidences they bring to their conclusions.

Even if I blindly and stupidly agree with your views, but that will not stop the reality of those natural percentile of 20% evil prone feasting on the evil and violent elements to soothe their desperation from Angst. This would be cowardice in ignoring the real problem of evil and violent that will happen.

So it is not a question of who choose which.
What is critical is the nature of the ideology of Islam is such that it enable that STALEMATE DILEMMA that cannot be resolved, unless Allah appear on Earth now to confirmed what is its original intention.

The fault [due to the STALEMATE DILEMMA] is inherent in the ideology of Islam, which you agree is a false religion from a false prophet. Wonder why you are so aggressive in defending it with such weak arguments?
 
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Joyousperson

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JosephZ,

Note this critical point from the article with reference to 9:5;

While a case may be made as to the historic limitation of the order to kill unbelievers, there is no mention in these verses or in the historical record of any violations of the treaty by the non-Muslims in Mecca at that time.
Instead, the reason given is that they are polytheists (9:5 Mushrikun) and "unclean" (9:28).
Likewise, the killing is to end when worship is for Allah's religion.
The central message of 9:5 is indicated within the verse, i.e. directed at polytheists (9:5 Mushrikun) which also include Christians [believe in 3 gods] which is extended to 'disbelievers' in the overall context of the whole of the Quran.

Note the overall context of the whole of the Quran is the hatred and antagonism directed toward non-Muslims as justified by the 3400++ verses or 55%, i.e. the war cry within a primal 'us versus them' atmosphere.

This "us versus them" atmosphere from the 3400++ verses of anti-non_Muslims is like an expanse of very-dry-grass which can turned into a wild-fire with the slightest sparks.

The settling up of a "us versus them" atmosphere is the first of the 10 stages to Genocide.

[Stage] 1. CLASSIFICATION: All cultures have categories to distinguish people into “us and them” by ethnicity, race, religion, or nationality: German and Jew, Hutu and Tutsi.
10 Stages of Genocide

I have proven such an "us versus them" state or atmosphere is present within the ideology of Islam which is packed with loads of evil and violent elements which are read catalysts to trigger evil and violent acts by the 20% or 320 million evil prone Muslims.

Re 9:5 there is no indication of the significance of the 'history' perspective and those who defend has to dig deep into a historical perspective which is a pandora box of controversies.
 
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JosephZ

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What has happened to your moral compass?
As we had agreed, even one act of evil and violent must be addressed.
Killing another human being is the worst of the immoral acts.
You don't seem to be concern with this.
?

Over the 1400 history of Islam millions, >100 million of non-Muslim, had been killed [wars, genocides, etc.] by those within the 20% percentile of evil prone Muslims inspired by 9:5 and other related verses.
Source?

Note this critical point from the article with reference to 9:5; While a case may be made as to the historic limitation of the order to kill unbelievers, there is no mention in these verses or in the historical record of any violations of the treaty by the non-Muslims in Mecca at that time.
Instead, the reason given is that they are polytheists (9:5 Mushrikun) and "unclean" (9:28).
Likewise, the killing is to end when worship is for Allah's religion.
First let's look at the beginning of Chapter 9 so we can see which polytheists are being talked about.

1. A declaration of immunity from God and His Messenger to the polytheists with whom you had made a treaty.

4. Except for those among the polytheists with whom you had made a treaty, and did not violate any of its terms, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill the treaty with them to the end of its term. God loves the righteous.

As seen in these two verses, it's not talking about all polytheists. Since verse 4 says "Except for those among the polytheists with whom you had made a treaty, and did not violate any of its terms, nor aided anyone against you," then this automatically tells us that some of the polytheists have broken their treaties.

7. How can there be a treaty with the polytheists on the part of God and His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at the Sacred Mosque? As long as they are upright with you, be upright with them. God loves the pious.

8. How? Whenever they overcome you, they respect neither kinship nor treaty with you. They satisfy you with lip service, but their hearts refuse, and most of them are immoral.

10. Towards a believer they respect neither kinship nor treaty. These are the transgressors.


In the above verses we again see a distinction between polytheists, Those who upheld their treaties (Verse 7) and those who didn't respect their treaties (Verses 8 & 9). Those who didn't keep their treaties are the transgressors.

13. Will you not fight a people who violated their oaths, and planned to exile the Messenger, and initiated hostilities against you? Do you fear them? It is God you should fear, if you are believers.

The above question wouldn't have been asked had there not been polytheists who had already broken their treaty. So when you read verse 5:

When the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them. And capture them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayers, and pay the alms, then let them go their way. God is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.

When it says "kill them wherever you find them," it's obvious that it's only talking about those who have already broken their treaties, and not all polytheists.

Note my source quoted the most famous Islamic scholar, Ibn Khatir
Ibn Kathir - Wikipedia
Your trustworthy source whom you think is the most famous Islamic scholar confirms that there were certain polytheists that had violated their treaty.

The Messenger of Allah and the Muslims preserved the terms of the treaty with the people of Makkah from the month of Dhul-Qa`dah in the sixth year of Hijrah, until the Quraysh broke it and helped their allies, Banu Bakr, against Khuza`ah, the allies of Allah's Messenger. Aided by the Quraysh, Banu Bakr killed some of Bani Khuza`ah in the Sacred Area! The Messenger of Allah led an invasion army in the month of Ramadan, of the eighth year, and Allah opened the Sacred Area for him to rule over them, all thanks are due to Allah. The Messenger of Allah freed the Quraysh who embraced Islam after they were overpowered and defeated. These numbered around two thousands, and they were refered to by the name `Tulaqa' afterwards. Those among them who remained in disbelief and ran away from Allah's Messenger were sent promises of safe refuge for four months, during which they were allowed to move about freely. They included Safwan bin Umayyah, `Ikrimah bin Abi Jahl and many others. Allah later on guided them to Islam, and they became excellent believers. Surely, Allah is worthy of all praise for all His actions and decrees.

So as you can see, there is mention in those verses and in the historical record of violations of the treaty by the non-Muslims in Mecca at that time.

Once again, textual and historical context are key to interpreting religious scriptures. Qur'an chapter 9 was revealed to a very specific audience who were defending themselves under a specific circumstance which happened over 1,400 years ago. This point in history and those being spoken too have long passed and these verses are no longer applicable to Muslims living in 2019.
 
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Joyousperson

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We have gone through this point.
I have provided evidences 80 million of Hindus were killed in India within the 1000+ years of Muslims occupation of India alone to the extent the motherland's "arms" were torn apart violently.
I have argued even if this is 50%, the number is still horrible. These evil and violent acts are influenced and inspired by 9:5 and other verses in the Quran.


First let's look at the beginning of Chapter 9 so we can see which polytheists are being talked about.

1. A declaration of immunity from God and His Messenger to the polytheists with whom you had made a treaty.

4. Except for those among the polytheists with whom you had made a treaty, and did not violate any of its terms, nor aided anyone against you. So fulfill the treaty with them to the end of its term. God loves the righteous.

As seen in these two verses, it's not talking about all polytheists. Since verse 4 says "Except for those among the polytheists with whom you had made a treaty, and did not violate any of its terms, nor aided anyone against you," then this automatically tells us that some of the polytheists have broken their treaties.
Why do you omit verse 2 and 3?

Besides your quote of verse 1 [re "declaration"] is incomplete or wrong by itself.

Here is a run through from verse 1 to 4 [Pickthall]

9:1. Freedom from obligation [barāatun] [immunity] (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those [infidels] of the idolaters [infidels] with whom ye [Muslims] made a treaty:​

Here Allah is declaring, Allah is freed from all obligations of immunity towards the idolaters.

9:2. Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye [infidels] cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound [disgrace, shame, humiliate] the disbelievers [infidels] (in His guidance).​

Note this terrible threat from Allah to the infidels. This is obviously a general principle of the harsh treatment and condemnation of non-Muslims.

9:3. And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage [alhajji in Mecca] that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters [infidels], and (so is) His messenger [Muhammad]. So, if ye [infidels] repent, it will be better for you; but if ye [infidels] are averse, then know that ye [infidels] cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those [infidels] who disbelieve.​

Allah is repeating again, Allah is free from obligation to the infidels accompanied by the usual threat to infidels.

9:4. Excepting those [infidels] of the idolaters [infidels] with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your [Muslims'] right [have not failed in their committments] nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them [infidels] till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those [Muslims - muttagin] who keep their duty (unto Him).​

Here in verse 4 is the exception to verse 1 and 3. i.e. those [Muslims] who still have has an existing treaty with infidels. Note even till to this day, Muslims will have to made treaties with infidels under various circumstances. Thus the principle in 9:1-5 and the rest of the verses are critical as guide.

9:5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay [kill - faoqtuloo ] the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye [Muslims] find them, and take them [infidels as] (captive), and besiege them [infidels] , and prepare for them [infidels] each ambush. But if they [infidels] repent and establish worship and pay the poor due [zakat], then leave their [infidels] way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.​

The above is the command for Muslims to kill the infidels after the sacred months has passed. This is thus a principle that is applicable wherever there is no existing treaty with infidels.

Whilst there is an inkling of historical events, what is critical for the ideology of the Islam are the principles involved as with all other stories and parables within the Quran.

The point is there will be situations where Muslims under various circumstances where they need to sign treaty with non-Muslims especially when the Muslims are in a weaker position.
Chapter 9 is a guide to the above situations.

Where there is no treaty and after the treaty has expired, Muslims are under no obligations to give immunity, thus free to kill non-Muslims wherever they are.

7. How can there be a treaty with the polytheists on the part of God and His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at the Sacred Mosque? As long as they are upright with you, be upright with them. God loves the pious.

8. How? Whenever they overcome you, they respect neither kinship nor treaty with you. They satisfy you with lip service, but their hearts refuse, and most of them are immoral.

10. Towards a believer they respect neither kinship nor treaty. These are the transgressors.


In the above verses we again see a distinction between polytheists, Those who upheld their treaties (Verse 7) and those who didn't respect their treaties (Verses 8 & 9). Those who didn't keep their treaties are the transgressors.

13. Will you not fight a people who violated their oaths, and planned to exile the Messenger, and initiated hostilities against you? Do you fear them? It is God you should fear, if you are believers.

The above question wouldn't have been asked had there not been polytheists who had already broken their treaty. So when you read verse 5:

When the Sacred Months have passed, kill the polytheists wherever you find them. And capture them, and besiege them, and lie in wait for them at every ambush. But if they repent, and perform the prayers, and pay the alms, then let them go their way. God is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful.

When it says "kill them wherever you find them," it's obvious that it's only talking about those who have already broken their treaties, and not all polytheists.
Note your wrong sense of verse 1 where your verse only state "a declaration" and not "freedom from immunity" as translated by Pickthall and others.

As I argued above, Chapter 9 is not historical but reflect the principles to be dealt with infidels in similar circumstances at all times.


Your trustworthy source whom you think is the most famous Islamic scholar confirms that there were certain polytheists that had violated their treaty.

The Messenger of Allah and the Muslims preserved the terms of the treaty with the people of Makkah from the month of Dhul-Qa`dah in the sixth year of Hijrah, until the Quraysh broke it and helped their allies, Banu Bakr, against Khuza`ah, the allies of Allah's Messenger. Aided by the Quraysh, Banu Bakr killed some of Bani Khuza`ah in the Sacred Area! The Messenger of Allah led an invasion army in the month of Ramadan, of the eighth year, and Allah opened the Sacred Area for him to rule over them, all thanks are due to Allah. The Messenger of Allah freed the Quraysh who embraced Islam after they were overpowered and defeated. These numbered around two thousands, and they were refered to by the name `Tulaqa' afterwards. Those among them who remained in disbelief and ran away from Allah's Messenger were sent promises of safe refuge for four months, during which they were allowed to move about freely. They included Safwan bin Umayyah, `Ikrimah bin Abi Jahl and many others. Allah later on guided them to Islam, and they became excellent believers. Surely, Allah is worthy of all praise for all His actions and decrees.

So as you can see, there is mention in those verses and in the historical record of violations of the treaty by the non-Muslims in Mecca at that time.

Once again, textual and historical context are key to interpreting religious scriptures. Qur'an chapter 9 was revealed to a very specific audience who were defending themselves under a specific circumstance which happened over 1,400 years ago. This point in history and those being spoken too have long passed and these verses are no longer applicable to Muslims living in 2019.
I am aware many of authors of the tafsir referred to the historical contexts but they did not insist the principles involved are strictly confined to the specific historical time.

Note Ibn Kathir proclaimed 9:5 as the

"This is the Ayah of the Sword"
...
These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important.
Al - Quran Tafsir | Tafsir Ibn Kathir- Surah9.At-Tauba, Ayah5 | Alim

From another source, Ibn Kathir;
The Verse of the Sword: Sura 9:5 and Jihad

This honorable Ayah was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said,
"It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolater, every treaty, and every term."
Al-Awfi said that Ibn Abbas commented:
"No idolater had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara’ah was revealed.
The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara’ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi’ Al-Akhir."​

The 'aspects' refer to the principles that each Muslim must comply with to gain assurance to paradise with eternal life.

It would be very stupid of a God [all powerful,all-knowing, all-present] to waste so much writings in a holy message to be confined to only a specific time.
Any average person will be able to abstract the relevant principles involved from those verses in Chapter 9 and other chapters.

According to your argument you should, to be consistent, insists the whole Quran is to be historical, since it was revealed to Muhammad between 610-632 CE.

Btw, there are points in the Quran that indicate the Quran was only delivered a specific people -the Arabs of a specific language -Arabic. Allah had delivered its message to others in different languages.

But now that the Quran and Islam is spread outside the Arab peninsula to other people of different language for reason of principles, then the essence of Chapter 9 in this case should be the principles and not historical.

Btw, don't forget the inherent fundamental STALEMATE Dilemma within the practice of the ideology of Islam.
 
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Joyousperson

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JosephZ,

Aside from my counter to your above post;

Here is a very thorough exposition of verse 9:5.
I suggest you read this thoroughly.
The Verse of the Sword: Sura 9:5 and Jihad

One of the most frequently quoted Quranic verses is chapter 9 verse 5. This verse is known as "The Verse of the Sword." Muslim terrorists cite it to justify their violent jihad. Correspondingly, critics of Islam claim that it commands Muslims to act with offensive aggression towards the non-Muslims of that period, and contributes to Islam’s final theological doctrine of aggression towards all non-Muslims of all times.
Apologists for Islam claim that 9:5 is purely defensive. Which side is right?

As the Islamic source materials are examined it will become evident that verse 9:5 is part of the theology of jihad and is meant to be both offensive and defensive. It is directed against Pagans living both near to and far away from Muhammad.

Understanding 9:5 in context requires an examination of the passage in which it is found. This passage consists of 29 to 41 verses or so (depending on which scholar’s view you hold). Because of time and space constraints however, I will only review the first 8 or so verses. I believe that they set the passage’s tone and belay its directives.

Islam’s final theological position regarding the use of violence to further its domain does not rest upon one verse or passage.
Rather the entire Quran, other Islamic source materials, and Muhammad’s actions and lifestyle (Sunnah) must be examined and evaluated. We’ll do that with a view toward Sura 9:5.

I have attempted to keep this article focused on 9:5 within the broad theology of jihad. 9:5 is a foundational stone in the building of jihad and general aspects of jihad must be discussed. There is also the related topic of abrogation, but that has been dealt with elsewhere1, 2, 3, 4.
The Verse of the Sword: Sura 9:5 and Jihad

There are five Islamic source groups I’ll draw from to build this understanding:

  1. First, we have other classes of Islamic source materials that are related to the chapter 9 passage. These are the "authentic traditions" (sahih hadiths) and biographical stories (sira). These sources provide additional details concerning the passage. The majority of Islamic scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim, recognize them as having some degree of validity.
  2. Second, Actions. "Actions speak louder than words". Muslim historians such as Tabari and Ibn Sa’d recorded Muhammad’s actions and the actions of his followers both before and after he spoke the 9:5 passage. I will focus primarily on the actions of the Caliph Abu Bakr. He ruled the Islamic empire after Muhammad died and arguably knew Muhammad and his teachings best. He loved and obeyed Muhammad. He believed in him, served him, fought for him, and would have died for him. Logically, this dedicated, battle hardened veteran soldier, would continue to put Muhammad’s commands into practice. His actions involving non-Muslims display the true meaning of 9:5, i.e., was violence limited to only defense or were Muslims to expand by force?
  3. Third, we have the commentary (tafsir) of the great Islamic scholars. I’m not talking about some eloquent Muslim living in the West, doing a snow job on a naive and lazy Western audience like Hamza Yusuf, or trying to innovate and re-invent Islam into a more benign religion like Ali Eteraz or Stephen Schwartz. I’m talking about scholars like Ibn Kathir who devoted much of their lives to the study of Islam and had no need to fool an audience and present Islam as something it wasn’t in order to gain its acceptance.
  4. Fourth, we have Islamic tomes and theological encyclopedias, such as the "Reliance of the Traveller" and "Encyclopedia of Islam". These may not focus upon specific verses like 9:5, rather they focus on specific subjects, such as jihad and how the 9:5 theme ties into that subject.
  5. Fifth, there is the Quran itself. We should look to other verses in the chapter to see if they parallel 9:5 and attempt to understand what the Quran as a whole, in context, teaches. Because of size limitations I will only look at 2 other verses from chapter 9. But, the references I cite from group 4 above, list many other verses that support a violent jihad.
We can compile enough evidence from these Islamic sources to reach a sound conclusion about 9:5’s meaning. What I’ll do is present the materials I’ve collected for each group and comment upon them. At the end I’ll present a summary and conclusion.

Conclusion
We’ve examined the historical and scholarly Islamic documents related to 9:5 and jihad and there is only one conclusion that can be drawn: 9:5 was meant to be both offensive and defensive and was meant for worldwide application. The theology of jihad is composed in part of verse 9:5 and in particular this verse applies to "polytheists". Corresponding to 9:5, 9:29 issues a similar edict of war upon Jews and Christians, forcing them to bow the knee to Islam in humility, pay extortion, or die.

True Islam, real Islam, Muhammad’ Islam, is a poison in humanity’s soul. In this case it subjects man to a satanic brutality, "believe or die", where son will turn against family, friends against friends, and blood spills if one challenges the belief of Muhammad’s dominance.
The above presentation is very objective based on the sources used. I suggest you read the article thoroughly.

You may not agree, but WHO ARE YOU to insist the above is wrong or the Muslims who agree with the above are wrong??​
 
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JosephZ;

Here is the index of the above article re
The Verse of the Sword: Sura 9:5 and Jihad

I hope you read it because you always condemn the references I quoted superficially as anti-propagandists, blah blah blah.
From this article you will note the rigor applied and the conclusions are not picked from the air but based on various sources objectively.

CONTENT
INTRODUCTION


CHAPTER 9’s CHRONOLOGICAL AND TEXTUAL BACKGROUND

THE QURAN 9:1-8

REFERENCES

1. SUPPORTING ISLAMIC SOURCE MATERIALS

1.1 Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah.

1.2 Ibn Sa’d’s Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir.

1.3 Wakidi’s and other’s biographical information.

1.4 The Hadith collection of Bukhari

COMMENTS ON THE QURAN AND SUPPORTING ISLAMIC SOURCE MATERIALS.

2. THE ACTIONS OF MUHAMMAD AND THE COMPANIONS

2.1 Material from the Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, volume

2.2 Material from Tabari’s History.

2.3 Material from Tabari’s History, Volume 10.

2.4 Material from Tabari’s History, Volume 11.

COMMENTS ON THE ACTIONS

3. THE COMMENTARY (TAFSIR) OF THE SCHOLARS

3.1 Material from the Maariful Tafsir13.

3.2 The Tafsir of Ibn Kathir

3.3 The Tafsir of Ibn Abbas15

3.4 The Tafsir of Jalalayn16

3.5 Material from Mawdudi’s Introduction to his Commentary.

COMMENTS ON THE COMMENTARIES

4. THE ISLAMIC TOMES AND THEOLOGICAL ENCYCLOPEDIAS

4.1 Material from the "Reliance of the Traveller"17 on "jihad".

4.2 Material from the Encyclopedia of Islam18 on jihad.

4.3 Material from the Encyclopaedia of the Quran19

4.4 Material from the Shorter Encyclopedia of Islam20,

COMMENTS ON THE TOMES

5. QURANIC VERSES THAT CORROBORATE 9:5

5.1 Supporting actions: Material from Muir’s sira, "Life of Muhammad".

5.2 Material from the Maariful Tafsir on 9:29

5.3 Material from Ibn Kathir’s commentary on 9:29.

VERSE 9:123

5.4 MAARIFUL TAFSIR ON 9:123

5.5 IBN KATHIR ON 9:123

COMMENTS ON THE CORROBORATING VERSES

SUMMARY

CONCLUSION

Further reading:

APPENDIX 1 Various English translations of the Quran.

APPENDIX 2: Months of the Islamic Calendar

REFERENCES
 
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JosephZ

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Here is a very thorough exposition of verse 9:5.
I suggest you read this thoroughly.
The Verse of the Sword: Sura 9:5 and Jihad
The above presentation is very objective based on the sources used. I suggest you read the article thoroughly.
Here is the index of the above article re
The Verse of the Sword: Sura 9:5 and Jihad
I hope you read it because you always condemn the references I quoted superficially as anti-propagandists, blah blah blah.
AnsweringIslam is not an Islamic source. In it's about me section it says "We are Evangelical Christians" and it's hardly objective. Much of the material found on that site comes from the same well known anti-Islamic sources you have been using all along. David Wood, Bill Warner, etc...

You may not agree, but WHO ARE YOU to insist the above is wrong or the Muslims who agree with the above are wrong??
Someone who has been studying Islam off and on for more than three decades and who is currently a Missionary working in Muslim communities. The only place you will find teachings like those found at the links you shared are from Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists. You will not find that taught in any legitimate school that offers Islamic Studies whether it be from a Christian, Islamic, or secular school of thought, nor will you find Muslims who believe that way outside of the small minority which make up the extremists fringe.

We have gone through this point.
I have provided evidences 80 million of Hindus were killed in India within the 1000+ years of Muslims occupation of India alone to the extent the motherland's "arms" were torn apart violently.
I have argued even if this is 50%, the number is still horrible.
Yes, we have already gone through this point and I have already pointed out to you that the source for your 80 million came from book “Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India” by K.S. Lal. In that book it states that the population of India declined by 80 million from 1000–1500 due to various causes like wars, emigration, and famines. It doesn't say 80 million were killed by Muslims. Most estimates found online put the numbers at between 6 million and 30 million deaths which is still very high, but once again that is counting all deaths, not just deaths of non-Muslims at the hands of Muslims.

Why do you omit verse 2 and 3?
To save space and focus on the verses that clarify on the meaning of verse 5. Here are verses 2 & 3 which show they do not change the outcome of what I wrote in my previous post.

2. So travel the land for four months, and know that you cannot escape God, and that God will disgrace the disbelievers.

3. And a proclamation from God and His Messenger to the people on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage, that God has disowned the polytheists, and so did His Messenger. If you repent, it will be better for you. But if you turn away, know that you cannot escape God. And announce to those who disbelieve a painful punishment.


Besides your quote of verse 1 [re "declaration"] is incomplete or wrong by itself.
Here is a run through from verse 1 to 4 [Pickthall] Here is a run through from verse 1 to 4 [Pickthall] 9:1. Freedom from obligation [barāatun] [immunity] (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those [infidels] of the idolaters [infidels] with whom ye [Muslims] made a treaty: Here Allah is declaring, Allah is freed from all obligations of immunity towards the idolaters.
This is correct.

9:2. Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye [infidels] cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound [disgrace, shame, humiliate] the disbelievers [infidels] (in His guidance).
Note this terrible threat from Allah to the infidels.
This is correct.

9:3. And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage [alhajji in Mecca] that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters [infidels], and (so is) His messenger [Muhammad]. So, if ye [infidels] repent, it will be better for you; but if ye [infidels] are averse, then know that ye [infidels] cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those [infidels] who disbelieve.
Allah is repeating again, Allah is free from obligation to the infidels accompanied by the usual threat to infidels.
This is also correct, but it only applies to certain infidels as the next verse makes clear.

9:4. Excepting those [infidels] of the idolaters [infidels] with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your [Muslims'] right [have not failed in their committments] nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfill their treaty to them [infidels] till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those [Muslims - muttagin] who keep their duty (unto Him).
Here in verse 4 is the exception to verse 1 and 3. i.e. those [Muslims] who still have has an existing treaty with infidels.
This is correct. The infidels who have existing treaties will not face retaliation, only those who did not keep their word and broke the treaties will.

Note even till to this day, Muslims will have to made treaties with infidels under various circumstances. Thus the principle in 9:1-5 and the rest of the verses are critical as guide.
This is incorrect. The verses in chapter nine were to a select audience at a specific point in history. This is what Islam teaches, and those commands are not applicable to Muslims today.

9:5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay [kill - faoqtuloo ] the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye [Muslims] find them, and take them [infidels as] (captive), and besiege them [infidels] , and prepare for them [infidels] each ambush. But if they [infidels] repent and establish worship and pay the poor due [zakat], then leave their [infidels] way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
The above is the command for Muslims to kill the infidels after the sacred months has passed. This is thus a principle that is applicable wherever there is no existing treaty with infidels.
Once again, this verse is addressed to a select audience at a specific point in history and this event took place over 1,400 years ago.

Where there is no treaty and after the treaty has expired, Muslims are under no obligations to give immunity, thus free to kill non-Muslims wherever they are.
As I argued above, Chapter 9 is not historical but reflect the principles to be dealt with infidels in similar circumstances at all times.
Only Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists teach this way.


I am aware many of authors of the tafsir referred to the historical contexts but they did not insist the principles involved are strictly confined to the specific historical time.

Note Ibn Kathir proclaimed 9:5 as the

"This is the Ayah of the Sword"
...
These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important.
Al - Quran Tafsir | Tafsir Ibn Kathir- Surah9.At-Tauba, Ayah5 | Alim
You are doing the same thing here that you do with the Qur'an. You are taking Ibn Kathir's explanation of verse 5 out of context. The reason I linked to the beginning of chapter nine in my last post was in hopes you would read the commentary beginning verse one and continue straight through.

It would be very stupid of a God [all powerful,all-knowing, all-present] to waste so much writings in a holy message to be confined to only a specific time.
According to your argument you should, to be consistent, insists the whole Quran is to be historical, since it was revealed to Muhammad between 610-632 CE.
I'm in no way validating the Qur'an as being from God by the following response, but isn't this also true of the Bible?

The books found in the Old Testament like the first five that also make up the Jewish Torah give an historical account of the creation of the earth, mankind, and what God revealed to His people through Moses; Joshua, Judges, and Ruth tell the earliest history of Israel; The books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles record the fall of Judah to Babylon over a period of several centuries; Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther are about Israel's time in captivity, how they were freed from bondage, and the restoration of Jerusalem. The Books of prophesy found in the Bible are all addressed to specific audiences, primarily Israel.

The four gospels found in the New Testament are the recorded history of Jesus' ministry on earth and give us an accurate record of much of what Jesus said during that time; the book of Acts chronicles the history of the church immediately following Jesus' ascension; and the letters to Paul are all addressed to specific audiences or individuals. I didn't cover every book found in the Bible, but not one of them is addressed to Christians living in 2019.

The Bible was not written to Christians living today, but it was written and preserved by God for Christians living today. This is the key to understanding the Bible. With guidance from the Holy Spirit the Bible can enlighten us and can be applied to our daily lives in the way God intended.

So in a sense, the Bible is a historical collection of books and through reading it we can see how God dealt with people and certain circumstances in the past and from that we can get a pretty good idea on how God would deal with similar circumstances today. We also have a record of the Word of God through Jesus Christ that teaches us (Christians) what He expects from us as believers and how we are to deal with circumstances in our daily lives and how we are to deal with others.

Btw, there are points in the Quran that indicate the Quran was only delivered a specific people -the Arabs of a specific language -Arabic. Allah had delivered its message to others in different languages. But now that the Quran and Islam is spread outside the Arab peninsula to other people of different language for reason of principles, then the essence of Chapter 9 in this case should be the principles and not historical.
How would the Qur'an being available in different languages and more people today than in the past change the audiences that were being addressed and the events that are recorded in the original Arabic Qur'an? These would still be regarded as historical accounts by those who read the Qur'an.
 
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Joyousperson

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AnsweringIslam is not an Islamic source. In it's about me section it says "We are Evangelical Christians" and it's hardly objective. Much of the material found on that site comes from the same well known anti-Islamic sources you have been using all along. David Wood, Bill Warner, etc...
I did not AnsweringIslam is an Islamic source.
AnsweringIslam is a site that critique the ideology of Islam as a false religion from a false prophet which is the same as your view of Islam. The only difference while you view Islam is a false path to salvation, AnsweringIslam is more realistic in recognizing the inherent evil and violence in the ideology of Islam as supported with the appropriate evidence.

In this argument from the article on the critique of 9:5, it is objective. Show me where AnsweringIslam is wrong in their reference of the sources from the Quran and Ahadith?

Note this is a very serious and critical point you must answer.
You just cannot accuse and slander AnsweringIslam and others merely by making flimsy accusations.

How would you think if someone accuse you of being a pedophile without providing an argument and proof?
Surely you would want objective proofs.
 
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Someone who has been studying Islam off and on for more than three decades and who is currently a Missionary working in Muslim communities. The only place you will find teachings like those found at the links you shared are from Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists. You will not find that taught in any legitimate school that offers Islamic Studies whether it be from a Christian, Islamic, or secular school of thought, nor will you find Muslims who believe that way outside of the small minority which make up the extremists fringe.
What is the point of holding views and beliefs that are more than 3 decades if they are not totally true.
Your claims above are useless without reference to arguments that are objective.

Where religion is concern, what is at stake is a matter of life and death, like a drowning man clinging to a small piece of wood.
Their beliefs are based on faith, i.e. beliefs without proofs nor rationality. What is significant for a believer is thus not truths and objectivity, but what make them psychological secure.

Thus the critical point with the truth is not what the majority or minority believed, but the truth is based on what is objectively Islam, i.e. from the words of Allah.

So far show me where I have been wrong in interpreting the Quran's 6236 verses. I believe my views are very objective.

Note especially, WHO ARE YOU to insist you are right and others are wrong with their beliefs of the ideology of Islam based on the Quran and Ahadith.

Yes, we have already gone through this point and I have already pointed out to you that the source for your 80 million came from book “Growth of Muslim Population in Medieval India” by K.S. Lal. In that book it states that the population of India declined by 80 million from 1000–1500 due to various causes like wars, emigration, and famines. It doesn't say 80 million were killed by Muslims. Most estimates found online put the numbers at between 6 million and 30 million deaths which is still very high, but once again that is counting all deaths, not just deaths of non-Muslims at the hands of Muslims.
Note I provided a list of wars, massacres and genocides of Hindus by Muslims in India beside are forms of killing of Hindus in India over the 1000+ years of Islam dominance in India.

The estimate provided is 80 million over 1000+ years and not India then [before the split] was a very large country.

Now even if it is not 80 million but an absurd low of 1 million which is 1000 a year, that is still are significant quantum killed in the name of a religion!

Btw, I am using India as one example, there are millions killed by Muslims [inspired by Islam] around the world since 1400 years ago till the present. Something is very wrong in you in denying the seriousness of the quantum.

To save space and focus on the verses that clarify on the meaning of verse 5. Here are verses 2 & 3 which show they do not change the outcome of what I wrote in my previous post.

2. So travel the land for four months, and know that you cannot escape God, and that God will disgrace the disbelievers.

3. And a proclamation from God and His Messenger to the people on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage, that God has disowned the polytheists, and so did His Messenger. If you repent, it will be better for you. But if you turn away, know that you cannot escape God. And announce to those who disbelieve a painful punishment.



This is correct.


This is correct.
In this particular case [not for all] the full list of verses are critical to reflect the mood and tone of condemnation and hatred of Allah for disbelievers.

Here is the critical point.
Note Allah did not mention the Qurashy specifically but refer to "disbelievers"

9:2 fasīḥū fī l-arḍi arbaʿata ashhurin wa-iʿ'lamū annakum ghayru muʿ'jizī l-lahi wa-anna l-laha mukh'zī l-kāfirīna

In verse one, the enemies were l-mush'rikīna, i.e. polytheists. Then in 9:2 the enemies are l-kāfirīna, i.e. the disbelievers in general. Note 'kafir' is a very derogatory term, thus reinforcing the hatred for disbelievers. This is one solid clue indicating the intent of using the historical event as a background to present the eternal principles as a guide for ALL Muslims.

As such, these principles, albeit having historical background, are meant to be applicable to disbelievers-in-general whenever Muslims encountered similar situations which in inevitable at any time.

This [9:3] is also correct, but it only applies to certain infidels as the next verse makes clear.
Note 9:3 mentioned kafarū and this is repeated in 9:4 again the use of such a derogatory term in a tone of contempt, condemnation and hatred.

This [9:4] is correct. The infidels who have existing treaties will not face retaliation, only those who did not keep their word and broke the treaties will.
In 9:4, again the derogatory term [kafir] is used in a tone of contempt, condemnation and hatred.

This [interpretation of 9:5] is incorrect. The verses in chapter nine were to a select audience at a specific point in history. This is what Islam teaches, and those commands are not applicable to Muslims today.
As I had argued, Allah did not refer specifically to the Qurashy of Mecca.
Note the mentioned of polytheists then l-kāfirīna i.e disbelievers.
There is a historical background, but what is pertinent is the principles involved that are applicable to Muslims in similar state of war against the kuffar [plr].

What is critical is one need to note the aggressive and violent mood, feelings and tone used by Allah on the kuffar which definitely will influence the 20% of evil prone to act in the same psychological mode to ensure their passage to eternal life in paradise.

Once again, this verse [9:5] is addressed to a select audience at a specific point in history and this event took place over 1,400 years ago.
I have demonstrated above why the eternal principles within a related historical background is most critical to all Muslims as a guide in their life.

Only Islamic extremists and anti-Islamic propagandists teach this way.
WHO ARE YOU, me or others to insist they are wrong.
What is critical is whether they are objectively true to the teachings and command as reflected in the Quran, the core of Islam, as the terms of the divine contract they must comply in order to have eternal life in paradise.

In general Muslims will attempt to interpret the Quran - God's words are close as possible to Allah's intent. They will not twist Allah's word deliberately, else it would be hell and eternal death for them.

My point here is we must realize the above reality that there is something wrong with the ideology of Islam as the root cause and how it came about from a false prophet to become a false religion.

Something is wrong with you when you deliberately avoid the root cause with your denials.
 
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Joyousperson

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You are doing the same thing here that you do with the Qur'an. You are taking Ibn Kathir's explanation of verse 5 out of context. The reason I linked to the beginning of chapter nine in my last post was in hopes you would read the commentary beginning verse one and continue straight through.
I did read through the whole of Ibn Kathir's explanation of verse 9:5 to 9:5. From there I highlighted the critical points which is the same as I had explained in my two previous posts, i.e.

what is critical is the principles for all Muslims as a guide to deal with when faced with similar situations in their life. Not all,but the very significant 20% or 320 million evil prone Muslims will find such principles comforting and will likely to comply with it.​

Btw, is not only Ibn Kathir's verse 9:5 but one need to read the whole of Ibn Kathir's tafsir of the Quran. One will note Ibn Kathir had amplified the intended contempt, condemnation and hatred [in 3400+ verses] for the kuffar [pl. disbelievers] in general within the Quran in his explanation.

I'm in no way validating the Qur'an as being from God by the following response, but isn't this also true of the Bible?
Don't go off topic with this 'what about' tu quoque fallacy. This reflect intellectual dishonesty.

The books found in the Old Testament like the first five that also make up the Jewish Torah give an historical account of the creation of the earth, mankind, and what God revealed to His people through Moses; Joshua, Judges, and Ruth tell the earliest history of Israel; The books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles record the fall of Judah to Babylon over a period of several centuries; Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther are about Israel's time in captivity, how they were freed from bondage, and the restoration of Jerusalem. The Books of prophesy found in the Bible are all addressed to specific audiences, primarily Israel.
Yes, they were very specific because of the mentioned the names of the people and the groups.
Where in the case of the Quran re Chapter 9, the Qureshy are not named but as I had shown Allah mentioned 'polytheists' and kafir [kuffar] thus meant to be in general and not to be specific only.
Yes, there appear to be some specific incidents, but what is effective is the principles presented as guides for all Muslims as a guide and commands in similar situations in the context of the whole Quran.

The four gospels found in the New Testament are the recorded history of Jesus' ministry on earth and give us an accurate record of much of what Jesus said during that time; the book of Acts chronicles the history of the church immediately following Jesus' ascension; and the letters to Paul are all addressed to specific audiences or individuals. I didn't cover every book found in the Bible, but not one of them is addressed to Christians living in 2019.
What is Christianity proper is related to the intent of Jesus Christ from the direct contact with Jesus by the 4 apostles.
Technically, a Christ has establish a divine contract with the Christian God to expect salvation by complying with the covenanted terms.
The covenanted terms cannot come from any for a Christian to comply other than from Jesus Christ. Note the "Christ" is Christianity.
You need some intellectual backbone to support the above principles.
Thus a Christian at any time whether in 2019 or whenever is contracted with the covenanted terms from Jesus Christ, i.e. from within the Gospels only. The epistles and acts are like the Ahadith which are merely appendixes to the contract.
Can you counter the above?

The Bible was not written to Christians living today, but it was written and preserved by God for Christians living today. This is the key to understanding the Bible. With guidance from the Holy Spirit the Bible can enlighten us and can be applied to our daily lives in the way God intended.
Technically a Christian cannot accept the Bible as a 100% authority of Christianity.
For Christianity, the OT is abrogated by the gospels of Jesus Christ, note the "Christ" as the essence of Christianity. Only relevant verses from the OT are applicable as guide or information to the Christians.

So in a sense, the Bible is a historical collection of books and through reading it we can see how God dealt with people and certain circumstances in the past and from that we can get a pretty good idea on how God would deal with similar circumstances today. We also have a record of the Word of God through Jesus Christ that teaches us (Christians) what He expects from us as believers and how we are to deal with circumstances in our daily lives and how we are to deal with others.
When you speak of the Bible as a whole, you need to be very specific with the different parts, i.e. the OT, the Gospels, the epistles, and the acts.

What is critical to a Christian is the specific covenanted terms the Christian has to comply with in order to gain a passage to paradise with eternal life.
Therefore if the covenanted terms in the Gospels command all Christian to love all - even enemies, the Christian has to comply with this command.
The point is God issued a command of perfection but also knows humans are not perfect, thus the all-merciful God made provisions for repentance and forgiveness to those who deserved forgiveness.

How would the Qur'an being available in different languages and more people today than in the past change the audiences that were being addressed and the events that are recorded in the original Arabic Qur'an? These would still be regarded as historical accounts by those who read the Qur'an.
According to historical records there was such an event that happened in Mecca in the early years of Islam. Since this was a historical record communicated literally and orally, i.e. no video and audio records, we cannot be certain of its truth.

However one thing is true in accordance to the Quran is Allah intended to send a message to humanity with principles of a way of life for all Muslims to comply with as the covenanted terms they had entered into with Allah with a promise of eternal life in paradise.

It is very common to use stories, histories, parables, metaphors, comedy, satire, etc. as effective means to convey principles.
So what is critical are the principles within the stories, the histories, parables, metaphors, etc.

To insist those many verses [hundreds or thousands] are only and purely to be taken solely as historical stories, that is an insult to Allah and no Muslims would dare to do it. If they ignorantly did it, they have sinned against Allah and will go to hell.

My point;
What is obvious in Chapter 9 is the focus on the polytheists and kuffar [disbelievers] in general.
Allah did not mention any specific groups, person with a specific name in Chapter 9.
Chapter 9 represent the latest stance of Islam [10-20%] against the majority of disbelievers and humanity [90-80%].

Note there is not much difference between the ideology of Nazism and the ideology of Islam in terms of its anti-semitism, supremacist, imperialism, dominance, the evil and violent treatment of enemies, us versus them, good for believers only, etc.
It is just that the ideology of Islam happened to incorporate some soteriological elements and became a religion followed by the majority who are good human beings.
But its essence and inherent elements of evil and violence is always there and exposed to the vulnerable 20% i.e. pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims. The consequences of terrible evil and violent acts which are a reality supported with evidence.

Btw, whichever way you argue you cannot challenge the STALEMATE DILEMMA, i.e. as long as Islam exists, there will be inevitably two views no humans on earth can judge which is wrong or right. As such the unstoppable view will forever contribute to terrible evil and violence acts on non-Muslims.
In theory, the only solution is to get rid of the root cause totally. In practice, this seemingly impossible task can be possible in the future in a fool proof approach given the advancement of knowledge and technology.
 
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Joyousperson

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There is this instant response from Muslims and their apologists to brand anything from the AnsweringIslam site as anti-Islam propagandists or anti-Islam bashers.

A measure of intellectual honesty and integrity is what degree of scholarly work is done in the article and argument as justified by the appropriate and relevant references from authorised and recognized Islamic sources.

Note in the AnsweringIslam article, Silas stated his arguments are based on the following sources [not his opinions];

There are five Islamic source groups I’ll draw from to build this understanding:

1. First, we have other classes of Islamic source materials that are related to the chapter 9 passage. These are the "authentic traditions" (sahih hadiths) and biographical stories (sira). These sources provide additional details concerning the passage. The majority of Islamic scholars, both Muslim and non-Muslim, recognize them as having some degree of validity.

2. Second, Actions. "Actions speak louder than words". Muslim historians such as Tabari and Ibn Sa’d recorded Muhammad’s actions and the actions of his followers both before and after he spoke the 9:5 passage. I will focus primarily on the actions of the Caliph Abu Bakr. He ruled the Islamic empire after Muhammad died and arguably knew Muhammad and his teachings best. He loved and obeyed Muhammad. He believed in him, served him, fought for him, and would have died for him. Logically, this dedicated, battle hardened veteran soldier, would continue to put Muhammad’s commands into practice. His actions involving non-Muslims display the true meaning of 9:5, i.e., was violence limited to only defense or were Muslims to expand by force?

3. Third, we have the commentary (tafsir) of the great Islamic scholars. I’m not talking about some eloquent Muslim living in the West, doing a snow job on a naive and lazy Western audience like Hamza Yusuf, or trying to innovate and re-invent Islam into a more benign religion like Ali Eteraz or Stephen Schwartz. I’m talking about scholars like Ibn Kathir who devoted much of their lives to the study of Islam and had no need to fool an audience and present Islam as something it wasn’t in order to gain its acceptance.

4. Fourth, we have Islamic tomes and theological encyclopedias, such as the "Reliance of the Traveller" and "Encyclopedia of Islam". These may not focus upon specific verses like 9:5, rather they focus on specific subjects, such as jihad and how the 9:5 theme ties into that subject.

5. Fifth, there is the Quran itself. We should look to other verses in the chapter to see if they parallel 9:5 and attempt to understand what the Quran as a whole, in context, teaches. Because of size limitations I will only look at 2 other verses from chapter 9. But, the references I cite from group 4 above, list many other verses that support a violent jihad.

AnsweringIslam article re 9:5

Thus it is very intellectually dishonest and childish for any one to brush off his argument merely because apologists lumped up AnsweringIslam as an anti-Islam propagandists.

Note the tafsir of Ibn Khatir are the most notable and authoritative. Any references used other than Ibn Khatir are questionable, else prove the references are very reliable.

Note the Muʿtazilites in the 8th to 10th centuries already tried to sanitize Islam [to present it as benign] they way apologists are doing but failed because they deviated from Allah's real intentions are revealed in the perfected words of Allah in the 6236 verses of the Quran.
 
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JosephZ

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Note the tafsir of Ibn Khatir are the most notable and authoritative. Any references used other than Ibn Khatir are questionable, else prove the references are very reliable.
When you read the tafsir of Ibn Khatir in full context it debunks the claims being made by answeringislam and your claims made in this tread. http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=13&id=118&Itemid=64
Since you say any references used other than Ibn Khatir are questionable, the information at the link above should put an end to this argument.
 
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Joyousperson

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When you read the tafsir of Ibn Khatir in full context it debunks the claims being made by answeringislam and your claims made in this tread. Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - Surah 9 - Tawbah (Repentance)
Since you say any references used other than Ibn Khatir are questionable, the information at the link above should put an end to this argument.
It is my oversight that any other reference other than Ibn Khatir are questionable. I'll take that back. Ibn Kathir is the most notable one.

Note the article mentioned,

1. I’m talking about scholars like Ibn Kathir who devoted much of their lives to the study of Islam and had no need to fool an audience and present Islam as something it wasn’t in order to gain its acceptance.
The tafsir referred to in that article are the following;​

3.1 Material from the Maariful Tafsir13.
3.2 The Tafsir of Ibn Kathir
3.3 The Tafsir of Ibn Abbas15
3.4 The Tafsir of Jalalayn16
3.5 Material from Mawdudi’s Introduction to his Commentary.​

In any case where is your counter argument against the above and the other 4 sources of references used.

Btw, what is critical here is, it will end up with a STALEMATE Dilemma [of either defensive or offensive or both] where no human on earth can resolve, except Allah who will not appear till Judgment Day.

As such the evil prone Muslims from the pool of 320 million will continue with the offensive strategy as approved by Allah and non-Muslims will be killed, oppressed, dominated and face all sorts of terrible and evil acts from the evil prone Muslims.
 
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No, it isn't just historical. And no Muslim should be ignorant enough to say that.
YYtz6,
JosephZ asked the following re your above.

I don't think you understand what he was saying. Maybe he will chime in and further explain his answer.
If so, why don't you ask him why he is not killing non-Muslims everywhere he sees them since this is what you feel is commanded of Muslims for all time in verse 5 of Chapter 9.

What is your response to the above.

My view re your above;

I believe [guess] he [YYtz6] did not accept 9:5 is purely historical.
Most Muslims will either accept 9:5 as a defensive or offensive strategy as highlighted in the AnsweringIslam article
.​
 
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