Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Your misunderstanding of John 15 has you tripped up. It’s clear in the text that the fruit-bearers will bear more fruit, not less. So there’s no way for one to not abide. Bearing fruit is sanctification. It’s the being conformed. It’s being transformed. When you confuse sanctification with justification, you will end up with all sorts of legalism, and that’s a yoke that we should never bear.

The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit.

Anyone who does not abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned.

So your saying that Jesus’ message in verse 6 is completely useless because He was warning of consequences that no one is capable of receiving?

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.

So what sin does God count against those who are blessed?

“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭COLOSSIANS‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Justification is conditional

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Such a person is not a child of God but instead a son of disobedience of whom the wrath of God will fall upon such a person. Ephesians 5:1-7

Let’s see.

Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says,
“Awake, sleeper,
And arise from the dead,
And Christ will shine on you.” Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
— Ephesians 5:1-17

It doesn’t say we become sons of disobedience. It says to not be partakers of the things that the sons of disobedience do.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit.

Anyone who does not abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned.

So your saying that Jesus’ message in verse 6 is completely useless because He was warning of consequences that no one is capable of receiving?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
— John 15:6

How is that a warning?

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭COLOSSIANS‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Justification is conditional

Again, what sins are counted against those who are blessed? You didn’t answer.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Let’s see.

Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says,
“Awake, sleeper,
And arise from the dead,
And Christ will shine on you.” Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
— Ephesians 5:1-17

It doesn’t say we become sons of disobedience. It says to not be partakers of the things that the sons of disobedience do.

Why did he say not to be partskers of these things? He gives a reason.

for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Why did he say not to be partskers of these things? He gives a reason.

for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

I know. So why should believers do things that bring wrath upon unbelievers? We shouldn’t. You don’t think that wrath comes upon those Christ died for, do you? That makes no sense.

bcbsr · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
“yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
‭‭COLOSSIANS‬ ‭1:22-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Justification is conditional

Actually you've misconstrued the passage. You overlooked the tense.

Col 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard,

"He has reconciled" is historic aorist tense, speaking of an event in one's history.

What he's saying is that if one doesn't Persevere in the faith, then one can conclude that such an event didn't occur. It's the same as 1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us."

(Once Saved, Always Saved) only applies if the Once Saved has occurred.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
— John 15:6

How is that a warning?

Jesus tells His 11 faithful apostles every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit is cut off from the vine which is Christ by The Father. You say this is impossible when Jesus clearly says it is possible. Then He says they have been pruned by the message He has given them so that they will bear more fruit. Then He says to them “abide/remain/stay in Me. First of all why would Jesus tell them to abide in Him if they are incapable of failing to abide? He might’ve just as well said don’t jump up and touch the sun because you’ll burn to death. Now your saying it is impossible for someone to fail to abide in Christ when verse 6 Jesus specifically says “anyone who does not abide in Me...” Then He gives the consequences that those who fail to abide will face which is they are cast away to wither (dry up and waste away) then cast into the fire to be burned. This is a warning because it gives an ultimatum and states the consequences of that ultimatum. In verse 4 after Jesus says “abide in Me” he says Because the branch cannot bear fruit unless it abides in Me so neither can you unless you abide in Me. Again another ultimatum given directly to the faithful 11 apostles indicating that they are capable of failing to abide in Him. In verse 5 Jesus specifically says that they are the branches that he was referring to and again reinforces that apart from Him (if they fail to abide) they can do noting (they cannot bear fruit which results in being cut off from the vine.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Again, what sins are counted against those who are blessed? You didn’t answer.

I’m not sure to be honest. Perhaps all their sins or perhaps only their sins after they were justified then fell from grace.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Jesus tells His 11 faithful apostles every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit is cut off from the vine which is Christ by The Father. You say this is impossible when Jesus clearly says it is possible. Then He says they have been pruned by the message He has given them so that they will bear more fruit. Then He says to them “abide/remain/stay in Me. First of all why would Jesus tell them to abide in Him if they are incapable of failing to abide? He might’ve just as well said don’t jump up and touch the sun because you’ll burn to death. Now your saying it is impossible for someone to fail to abide in Christ when verse 6 Jesus specifically says “anyone who does not abide in Me...” Then He gives the consequences that those who fail to abide will face which is they are cast away to wither (dry up and waste away) then cast into the fire to be burned. This is a warning because it gives an ultimatum and states the consequences of that ultimatum. In verse 4 after Jesus says “abide in Me” he says Because the branch cannot bear fruit unless it abides in Me so neither can you unless you abide in Me. Again another ultimatum given directly to the faithful 11 apostles indicating that they are capable of failing to abide in Him. In verse 5 Jesus specifically says that they are the branches that he was referring to and again reinforces that apart from Him (if they fail to abide) they can do noting (they cannot bear fruit which results in being cut off from the vine.

I’m not sure how to answer this rambling post. It’s all over the place.

bcbsr · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
unless you abide in Me.

1John 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
I know. So why should believers do things that bring wrath upon unbelievers? We shouldn’t. You don’t think that wrath comes upon those Christ died for, do you? That makes no sense.

Christ died for His sheep who hear and follow. Not those who heard and followed them turned away.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I’m not sure to be honest. Perhaps all their sins or perhaps only their sins after they were justified then fell from grace.

Is falling from grace (assuming that’s possible) a sin? If so, how can it be counted against the justified?

bcbsr · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I’m not sure to be honest. Perhaps all their sins or perhaps only their sins after they were justified then fell from grace.

Rom 4:6-8 "David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Christ died for His sheep who hear and follow. Not those who heard and followed them turned away.

No sheep turns away. Christ said that His sheep hear and follow.

bcbsr · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Christ died for His sheep who hear and follow. Not those who heard and followed them turned away.

1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
I’m not sure how to answer this rambling post. It’s all over the place.

I’m explaining the verses to help you see that it is possible for someone to be cut off from the vine and it is possible for someone to fail to abide in Christ and lose their salvation. I don’t understand how this is not clear in the text my friend.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
No sheep turns away. Christ said that His sheep hear and follow.

How many times did Jesus mention His lost sheep? Surely your aware of these references.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I’m explaining the verses to help you see that it is possible for someone to be cut off from the vine and it is possible for someone to fail to abide in Christ and lose their salvation. I don’t understand how this is not clear in the text my friend.

But there’s nothing about losing salvation in that verse, unless you think the Vinedresser in inept.

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

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