Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

def · Jun 14, 2019

Hammster said:
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:3-8

Looks like that’s what Paul has in mind.

Paul did not write the NIV Bible.

In Romans 4, Paul is explaining the reason faith could be used to justify, and he is using Abraham as an example where God imputed righteousness on account of faith. Paul, in Romans 4, is teaching justification by faith without works, implying the teaching of the first term of the New Covenant, where a person believes the gospel (Jesus is the Christ and was raised from the dead) - same as believe in your heart, where he taught elsewhere. On account of this belief, the first term of the Covenant is fulfilled. In Romans 5, Paul says this is where we now stand (having completed the first term of the Covenant).

You need to relate Paul's teachings to the Covenant.

Hammster · Jun 14, 2019

def said:
Paul did not write the NIV Bible.

Huh?

Hammster · Jun 14, 2019

def said:
Paul did not write the NIV Bible.

In Romans 4, Paul is explaining the reason faith could be used to justify, and he is using Abraham as an example where God imputed righteousness on account of faith. Paul, in Romans 4, is teaching justification by faith without works, implying the teaching of the first term of the New Covenant, where a person believes the gospel (Jesus is the Christ and was raised from the dead) - same as believe in your heart, where he taught elsewhere. On account of this belief, the first term of the Covenant is fulfilled. In Romans 5, Paul says this is where we now stand (having completed the first term of the Covenant).

You need to relate Paul's teachings to the Covenant.

What exactly do you think my argument is?

def · Jun 14, 2019

Hammster said:
Let me see if I can explain.

God gives some to Christ. But, according to your understanding, all in Christ aren’t given by the Father. Christ says He will keep those given by the Father. What’s the security of those not given by the Father? Why the two groups?

So I think it better to look at what He said in chapter 17.

“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
— John 17:20

The “also” is important. He’s not saying that those referred to earlier did not believe in Him. Obviously they did. But he’s saying there will be others (like you and I) who believe through their proclamation.

Jesus references them (us) in chapter 10.

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
— John 10:16

Does the Father give them also? Yes.

My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
— John 10:29

So there’s no distinction as you’ve asserted. All are given by the Father.

Agree that ultimately there is only one group. 'there are sheep not of this fold (John 10:16)', what do you think it means?

Hammster · Jun 14, 2019

def said:
Agree that ultimately there is only one group. 'there are sheep not of this fold (John 10:16)', what do you think it means?

These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
— Matthew 10:5-6

So here he’s coming for Jews. But in John 10 He expands that there are other sheep (Gentiles).

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Who comes? All who the Father gives. Period.

Well another way of saying it is, All The Father gives to Me come to me and the one who keeps coming to Me I will certainly not cast out. That’s the context that the word used implies. You never answered my question concerning Romans 11. Does God graft in false professors who are outwardly claiming to be Christians? Because those who are grafted in by God Himself can be cut off and even grafted back in if they repent.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Are you saying that Jesus has some who are not given by the Father?

Or perhaps some whom The Father has given do not keep coming like I showed the example of in the definition I provided friend. If you look closely the scriptures always imply that salvation is the result of a present and continuous state of abiding in Christ. John 15 “abide in Me” John 10:27 “My sheep hear and follow” John 6:37 “the one who comes (continuously) to Me”. Romans 11 “behold God’s kindness and severity” Romans 6 “we are servants of the master of whom we serve”.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
The thing is that being justified is being declared righteous. You can do the word studies and see how the word is used. It will support that.

Yes I agree but I’m not aware of any scriptures that say we cannot be made wrong with God after being made right with Him. I actually see many scriptures saying we absolutely can be made wrong with God after being declared righteous. Ephesians 5:1-7 is just one example.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Well another way of saying it is, All The Father gives to Me come to me and the one who keeps coming to Me I will certainly not cast out. That’s the context that the word used implies.

Of course. Those given by the Father keep coming. Otherwise, the statement makes no sense.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Or perhaps some whom The Father has given do not keep coming like I showed the example of in the definition I provided friend. If you look closely the scriptures always imply that salvation is the result of a present and continuous state of abiding in Christ. John 15 “abide in Me” John 10:27 “My sheep hear and follow” John 6:37 “the one who comes (continuously) to Me”. Romans 11 “behold God’s kindness and severity” Romans 6 “we are servants of the master of whom we serve”.

Let me ask this, and maybe this will help. Does Christ ever leave or forsake us? If the answer is No, then regardless of what we might do, He is faithful.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Yes I agree but I’m not aware of any scriptures that say we cannot be made wrong with God after being made right with Him. I actually see many scriptures saying we absolutely can be made wrong with God after being declared righteous. Ephesians 5:1-7 is just one example.

Here’s scripture for you. It’s the gospel. Embrace it and be free.

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:7-8

Concord1968 · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:3-8

Looks like that’s what Paul has in mind.

Doesn't the Greek word for justification translate literally as "declare righteous"? Which Jerome mistranslated as "make righteous"?

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

James Murphy said:
Doesn't the Greek word for justification translate literally as "declare righteous"? Which Jerome mistranslated as "make righteous"?

That’s my understanding.

Concord1968 · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
That’s my understanding.

That's what I thought.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Of course. Those given by the Father keep coming. Otherwise, the statement makes no sense.

Then in that case no one would fail to abide in Christ and the message in John 15 is useless.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Then in that case no one would fail to abide in Christ and the message in John 15 is useless.

That would depend on if we are talking about justification or sanctification.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Let me ask this, and maybe this will help. Does Christ ever leave or forsake us? If the answer is No, then regardless of what we might do, He is faithful.

In what context did He say this? Who did He say this to and what was the discussion that He was giving? We don’t know because this reference is not in the books of the gospel. As I explained, if someone fails to abide in Christ who has left and who has forsaken who? Jesus will not leave us or forsake us in the context that He will always accept us if we repent and abide in Him.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
In what context did He say this? Who did He say this to and what was the discussion that He was giving? We don’t know because this reference is not in the books of the gospel. As I explained, if someone fails to abide in Christ who has left and who has forsaken who? Jesus will not leave us or forsake us in the context that He will always accept us if we repent and abide in Him.

Your misunderstanding of John 15 has you tripped up. It’s clear in the text that the fruit-bearers will bear more fruit, not less. So there’s no way for one to not abide. Bearing fruit is sanctification. It’s the being conformed. It’s being transformed. When you confuse sanctification with justification, you will end up with all sorts of legalism, and that’s a yoke that we should never bear.

BNR32FAN · Jun 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Here’s scripture for you. It’s the gospel. Embrace it and be free.

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered. “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”
— Romans 4:7-8

I don’t see how this is relevant friend. Yes when we are justified we are forgiven of our sins. This doesn’t mean we can live an ungodly way of life and expect salvation. Such a person is not a child of God but instead a son of disobedience of whom the wrath of God will fall upon such a person. Ephesians 5:1-7 Notice Paul is writing to children of God who are in fact saved according to Ephesians 2. Paul still warns these very same children of God mentioned in chapter 2 of living a sinful way of life resulting in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which is they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Hammster · Jun 15, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t see how this is relevant friend. Yes when we are justified we are forgiven of our sins. This doesn’t mean we can live an ungodly way of life and expect salvation. Such a person is not a child of God but instead a son of disobedience of whom the wrath of God will fall upon such a person. Ephesians 5:1-7 Notice Paul is writing to children of God who are in fact saved according to Ephesians 2. Paul still warns these very same children of God mentioned in chapter 2 of living a sinful way of life resulting in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which is they will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God.

Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.

So what sin does God count against those who are blessed?

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

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