Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

Hammster said:

Well, I believe that Jesus loses none that His Father gives Him. I’m not about to try to drive a wedge in the Godhead. When Jesus says He will never leave us or forsake us, I take Him at His word. When He says “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand”, I believe that is true.

And I believe Him when He says “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.” Fruit bearers bear more fruit. That’s what it says. That’s what I believe.

Hopefully God answers your prayer and you see these truths.

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In John 6 Jesus also says

“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭6:37‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice the word “comes” in bold letters. The Greek word that is used is only used in the present and imperfect tense. Which means those who presently and continuously come to Him He will not cast out.


All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

cometh

G2064


G2064


Lemma:

ἔρχομαι


Transliteration:

érchomai


Pronounce:

el'-tho


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to come a) of persons

1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning

2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public

2) metaph. a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto

3) to go, to follow one


Grammar:

middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) , or (active) , which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

As for your reference to Hebrews 13:5 please keep the context of the conversation in mind. We’re talking about abiding in Christ. If we fail to abide in Him who is the one who left and forsaken who? Jesus said specifically said

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is clear that if we do not abide in Him He will forsake us because we would be the one who has left, not Him. And keep in mind we don’t know what context Jesus said He would never leave or forsake us. It is referenced in Hebrews 13 but in what context? We don’t know.

Now about John 10:27-29 Jesus specifically says His sheep hear and follow. Again Jesus is speaking in the present tense. He doesn’t say His sheep heard and followed.

In John 15:2 the term “takes away” is not the most accurate translation. Please notice the definitions below. The branch is attached to the vine so the correct definition would be the one that pertains to something that is attached to anything. This would mean cut off or removed.

away

G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

Free gift

Acts of the Apostles 13:38-39

bcbsr said:

To be "justified" is the same as being declared righteous as we can from alternate translations:

Rom 3:20 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." NIV

Rom 3:20 "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin" NASB

So since the two expressions can be interchanged, you take Rom 3:24 "being justified as a gift by His grace" as equivalent to "being declared righteous by his grace". Same thing could be said of:
Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Ro 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith,
Ga 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Ga 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

And so forth

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The NIV Bible is the work of the Reformers, who said that justified is to be declared righteous. From this meaning of justified, a new gospel is spawned because the gospel is sensitive and dependence on the initial meanings of words. You can use a table and sit on it, but so or later, the weight may be too much, and one day, it will collapse.

Hammster said:

Is the Vinedresser a failure? Does the Shepherd lose sheep? That’s what you’ll have to conclude.

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In the parable of the Barren Fig Tree, the vinedresser pleaded for a one year extension, and agreed to cut the tree down if it remains unproductive after a year. In other words, there is a limit to the degree of tolerance.

The parable of the Lost Sheep says the shepherd will leave His 99 sheep and look for the lost one. There is rejoicing when the lost sheep was found. One can assume that a lost sheep is always found, but it is only an assumption and the assumption is not supported by the parable of the Barren Fig Tree.

Hammster said:

I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
— John 10:14-16

My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
— John 10:27-30

How about those passages?

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In John 17, Jesus prayed for two sets of people, one that the Father gave Him (v 6) and the other who believe in Him through the gospel (v 20). John 10 appears to address those that the Father gives Him.

bcbsr said:

justified δικαιοω
righteous δικαιος

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If one starts with a wrong meaning, a different gospel can emerge. A word can have several meanings and a sentence can have several words, and that is the reason, given a passage of scripture, people can come up with different interpretations.

Rather than starting with the meanings of words, there is a better way to approach the Bible and that is to understanding the relationships and connections between concepts.

Hammster said:

Are you saying that Jesus has some who are not given by the Father?

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Not me, the Bible says so, see John 17:6 and John 17:20.

Hammster said:

The thing is that being justified is being declared righteous. You can do the word studies and see how the word is used. It will support that.

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'Declared righteous' is the meaning Luther gave in the 16th century. Are you saying Paul anticipated the meaning when he wrote his epistles?

Hammster said:

I think you are misreading that. The Godhead isn’t going to be divided.

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How is the Godhead divided?
We pray to God, the Father, for mercy, and HE grants mercy. Jesus carries out the act of mercy.