LDS Young Mormon Children Are Taught This

He is the way

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PROVE it! Show us the plates. And the endowments were the mistakes of men? Yeah, the whole religion is a mistake!
Another case of not seeing the forest because of the trees.

(New Testament | Mark 8:12)

12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
 
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mmksparbud

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Joseph Smith did not write, his scribes did when he dictated the revelations he received directly from God. The Book of Mormon is more accurate than the Bible because it is a direct Revelation from God. That being said there were spelling, punctuation, etc. errors because of the scribes and typesetting.


You know very well that is not the type of error that are the most "interesting." You failed to respond to any of the issues brought up on another thread. The questions raised do not go away simply because you do not like the website. They are legitimate issues. You are basically saying that God dictated mistakes from the KJV. The issues here need to be addressed.

"The writings of Isaiah were stored on the Brass Plates in ancient Hebrew in 600 B.C . Isaiah 19:18 calls it the language of Canaan. Nephi took these to America and translated them to Reformed Egyptian on the Small Plates. Joseph translated these to English. So we have Ancient Hebrew -> Alternate Egyptian -> English.

Now consider another timeline, where those same Hebrew writings of Isaiah were translated to Jacobean English. Wikipedia says "For their Old Testament, the translators used a text originating in the editions of the Hebrew Rabbinic Bible by Daniel Bomberg (1524/5), but adjusted this to conform to the Greek LXX or Latin Vulgate in passages to which Christian tradition had attached a Christological interpretation.” This KJV Bible translation went through multiple languages and had many influences.

How could these two very different timelines have produced nearly identical scriptures? There are differences in the Bible and BoM Isaiah chapters, but the differences seem to be more because of Joseph's memory errors when dictating rather than from truly divergent history. I say this because the BoM contains words (like the italics, see below) and phrases that could only have come from the KJV.

So the question is not "did he copy the KJV", but "WHY did he copy the KJV?" There are faithful, mental gymnastic answers and straightforward, unfaithful answers.

The Italic Words

The italicized words in the KJV were added by the translators to make their translation more understandable. They were not part of the original Hebrew and Greek. In other words, they’re not found in any original source of the Bible, and they’re not found in non-KJV translations. It is impossible that these words could have been on the Brass Plates, which were written 2,000 years earlier. Royal Skousen (a faithful apologist) calculated that of the 392 italicized words in KJV Isaiah, 242 of the words, or 62 percent, are exactly included in the BoM.

Some have suggested that it was difficult to translate, so when he saw the same text on the Brass Plates, he used his Bible instead of retranslating. I accepted this explanation for much of my life. However, recent explanations of Joseph’s translation process, such as the official LDS essay, are clear on his process. He used his seer stone with his face in a hat. Consistent witnesses are clear that Joseph never had a Bible near him (he never had the Golden Plates near him, either).

One telling example is the Sermon on the Mount in 3 Nephi. It is an obvious copy of the KJV, but it contains changes such as using Nephite money instead of Hebrew money. It makes sense that Jesus would use the money of the Nephites. However, most other references to Hebrew/Roman culture are left intact: the word "Raca", going the extra mile and Roman law, sheep and herding, and many others. It seems like Joseph made an attempt to convert the KJV text to fit within the BoM, but he missed many references because he lacked the education to know which changes were needed.

Deutero-Isaiah Chapters

Most bible scholars agree that chapters 40-55 were written after Lehi left Jerusalem. Although Mormon scholars don't agree to this (because it would invalidate the BoM). Others have touched on this one, so I'll keep it brief.

If the scholars are right about Isaiah being written by 3+ different authors, it is impossible that the Brass Plates could have included these chapters of Isaiah. They were not created until well after Lehi’s family took the Brass Plates with them. Even if Joseph was copying from his KJV for an appropriate reason, these chapters still wouldn’t have been on the Brass Plates.

The Gospel of Mark

Mormon 9: 22-24 quotes the final verses in the Gospel of Mark. The quote is nearly word for word. However how could this quote have been made when that part of Mark was added by Christians around 500 A.D.? In all early manuscripts, the Gospel of Mark ends with Mark 16: 8. In later manuscripts, verses 9-19 are added. Different variations of the verses show up, but as time goes on, the current version becomes standardized.

Scholars are pretty consistent in saying these verses were added by later Christians and were not part of the book. The original Greek text for the verses is stylistically different than the rest of Mark, with different word choices being used. This seems an impossible anachronism for Mormon to have included text hadn’t yet been added to the Gospel of Mark.

The Sacking of Jerusalem

This one isn't related to the KJV, but I'm including it because it is another impossibility. Most church members don’t know that Jerusalem was sacked twice: once in 597 BC and again in 587 BC. The first sacking included several years of war. Nebuchadnezzar started the invasion of Jerusalem in 601 BC—which included a 2-3 year (long and difficult) siege—finally broke through the walls in 597, and raided the city. The king was upset and sacked the city brutally. The king took most of the wealth and marched all the important people off to Babylon (at least 10,000 were taken, which probably represented a good part of the city). He bound Jehoiakim (the king) and paraded him in cities throughout Israel (finally throwing his corpse to dogs).

After this first sacking, Nebuchadnezzar installed Zedekiah as a puppet king over those that remained. The city was left in such ruin that the destruction inflicted on Hebrews in 601 BC (the lead up to the 597 capture) was said to fulfill the words of the prophets that Jerusalem would be destroyed. Referring to this first destruction, the Bible states that the destruction was so complete that "all Jerusalem" was deported with "none remaining except the poorest" (2 Kings 24). The Lord said that all the good figs (people) had been taken to Babylon, leaving only rotten, worthless figs behind (Ezek 4). Zedekiah reigns for 10 years, eventually rebels, and Nebuchadnezzar returns and burns the city in 587.

The Book of Mormon starts with Lehi preaching "in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah". This fact is given at least several other times in the BoM. Lehi definitely left after Jerusalem had been brutally raided in 597. He and his family lived through the terror.

Yet read the first few chapters of the BoM again and watch the tone. The brothers talk about the great city of Jerusalem -- how it could never fall. They have no interest in leaving the great city. "Neither did they believe that Jerusalem, that great city, could be destroyed according to the words of the prophets" (1 Ne 2). Further, why wasn't Lehi (a rich man) carried off to Babylon with everyone else. Why wasn't Laban carried off?

It seems that Joseph was unaware of the two sackings of the city and he instead only knew (as many did in the 1800’s) about the final burning of the city. Amaleki says that "the people of Zarahemla came out from Jerusalem at the time that Zedekiah, king of Judah, was carried away captive into Babylon." This obviously refers to the 587 (final) sacking, which again shows Joseph compressing the two events into one sacking.

Egyptian is Verbose

Another language issue, although not specifically related to the KJV that you asked about, is that Egyptian is pretty verbose where Hebrew is more compact. Mormon 9 states that reformed Egyptian was used because scratching on the plates was so hard, and Egyptian was compact and easier to write.

Search the internet for "the most compact languages", and you’ll get Hebrew, among a few other languages like Chinese. Egyptian, on the other hand, contains numerous, complex characters that would be hard to etch on metal.

Then add to this that Joseph clearly believed that one character of Egyptian translated to a whole paragraph of English. This was a common belief at his time, and his Kirtland language translation documents clearly show that he held the belief."
Trying to explain the problem of the KJV errors found in the Book of Mormon to someone who is just starting the CES Letter... : exmormon
 
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Peter1000

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Matthew 18
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

John 14
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you...

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Psalm 139
7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
The foundation of the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints was apostles and prophets and Jesus Christ himself.
Ephesians 2:20 King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

With Jesus in heaven it was up to the apostles and prophets to do the teaching.

This is the reason Jesus gave them:
Ephesians 4:11-14 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Without the apostles and prophets we can not perfect the saints (teach them what they need to know to be saved), do the work of the ministry (only those having the binding and loosing keys can do the true work of the ministry), they cannot edify the body of Christ, (they do not know what that means).

This is to be the case till we all come into a unity of the faith, a full knowledge of the Son of God, so that we can be perfect men and women, and come unto the stature of Christ in his fulness.

It is apostles and prophets that keep us from being tossed to and from with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men and women and their cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive.

We have not had apostles and prophets for 1900 years. The children have not been taught properly.
 
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Rescued One

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Another case of not seeing the forest because of the trees.

(New Testament | Mark 8:12)

12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

I didn't ask for a sign. But your claims can't be verified. God told me to leave your organization and its false teachings.
 
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He is the way

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Joseph Smith's scribes including his wife Emma testified that Joseph Smith had NO written material with him when he dictated the Book of Mormon to them. Ans as I have stated if he had not have dictated the same words found in the KJV of the Bible he would have been ridiculed for not doing so. Isaiah was often quoted in the New Testament. It is no surprise that he would be quoted in the Book of Mormon. In fact there would be a problem if he was not quoted in the book of Mormon. Clearly most of these accusations are assumptions based on other peoples assumptions. Credibility is therefore lacking.
 
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mmksparbud

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Joseph Smith's scribes including his wife Emma testified that Joseph Smith had NO written material with him when he dictated the Book of Mormon to them. Ans as I have stated if he had not have dictated the same words found in the KJV of the Bible he would have been ridiculed for not doing so. Isaiah was often quoted in the New Testament. It is no surprise that he would be quoted in the Book of Mormon. In fact there would be a problem if he was not quoted in the book of Mormon. Clearly most of these accusations are assumptions based on other peoples assumptions. Credibility is therefore lacking.

You have not addressed the issues involved with Isaiah. It is not a matter of quoting Isaiah. Did you not read the article, or are you just ignoring the issues? He most certainly would not have been ridiculed for not having the same mistakes as the KJV---it would have, in fact, added to his credibility.
Questions raised have nothing to do with credibility. They are legitimate questions.
 
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He is the way

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I didn't ask for a sign. But your claims can't be verified. God told me to leave your organization and its false teachings.
You said: "PROVE it! Show us the plates." That was your first two sentences. It sounds like saying that you wanted a sign. I believe that you have been deceived.
 
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He is the way

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You have not addressed the issues involved with Isaiah. It is not a matter of quoting Isaiah. Did you not read the article, or are you just ignoring the issues? He most certainly would not have been ridiculed for not having the same mistakes as the KJV---it would have, in fact, added to his credibility.
Questions raised have nothing to do with credibility. They are legitimate questions.
This has already been addressed in fair Mormon. Book of Mormon/Translation Errors from the KJV - FairMormon
 
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mmksparbud

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You said: "PROVE it! Show us the plates." That was your first two sentences. It sounds like saying that you wanted a sign. I believe that you have been deceived.

Seems like it is you that is deceived.
 
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mmksparbud

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NO, you did not address the issues -- you have done what you guys do best-- avoidance! You did not address this
Most bible scholars agree that chapters 40-55 were written after Lehi left Jerusalem. Although Mormon scholars don't agree to this (because it would invalidate the BoM). Others have touched on this one, so I'll keep it brief.

If the scholars are right about Isaiah being written by 3+ different authors, it is impossible that the Brass Plates could have included these chapters of Isaiah. They were not created until well after Lehi’s family took the Brass Plates with them. Even if Joseph was copying from his KJV for an appropriate reason, these chapters still wouldn’t have been on the Brass Plates.

You did not address this:

This one isn't related to the KJV, but I'm including it because it is another impossibility. Most church members don’t know that Jerusalem was sacked twice: once in 597 BC and again in 587 BC. The first sacking included several years of war. Nebuchadnezzar started the invasion of Jerusalem in 601 BC—which included a 2-3 year (long and difficult) siege—finally broke through the walls in 597, and raided the city. The king was upset and sacked the city brutally. The king took most of the wealth and marched all the important people off to Babylon (at least 10,000 were taken, which probably represented a good part of the city). He bound Jehoiakim (the king) and paraded him in cities throughout Israel (finally throwing his corpse to dogs).

After this first sacking, Nebuchadnezzar installed Zedekiah as a puppet king over those that remained. The city was left in such ruin that the destruction inflicted on Hebrews in 601 BC (the lead up to the 597 capture) was said to fulfill the words of the prophets that Jerusalem would be destroyed. Referring to this first destruction, the Bible states that the destruction was so complete that "all Jerusalem" was deported with "none remaining except the poorest" (2 Kings 24). The Lord said that all the good figs (people) had been taken to Babylon, leaving only rotten, worthless figs behind (Ezek 4). Zedekiah reigns for 10 years, eventually rebels, and Nebuchadnezzar returns and burns the city in 587.

The Book of Mormon starts with Lehi preaching "in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah". This fact is given at least several other times in the BoM. Lehi definitely left after Jerusalem had been brutally raided in 597. He and his family lived through the terror.

Yet read the first few chapters of the BoM again and watch the tone. The brothers talk about the great city of Jerusalem -- how it could never fall. They have no interest in leaving the great city. "Neither did they believe that Jerusalem, that great city, could be destroyed according to the words of the prophets" (1 Ne 2). Further, why wasn't Lehi (a rich man) carried off to Babylon with everyone else. Why wasn't Laban carried off?

It seems that Joseph was unaware of the two sackings of the city and he instead only knew (as many did in the 1800’s) about the final burning of the city. Amaleki says that "the people of Zarahemla came out from Jerusalem at the time that Zedekiah, king of Judah, was carried away captive into Babylon." This obviously refers to the 587 (final) sacking, which again shows Joseph compressing the two events into one sacking.


You did not address this:
Another language issue, although not specifically related to the KJV that you asked about, is that Egyptian is pretty verbose where Hebrew is more compact. Mormon 9 states that reformed Egyptian was used because scratching on the plates was so hard, and Egyptian was compact and easier to write.

Search the internet for "the most compact languages", and you’ll get Hebrew, among a few other languages like Chinese. Egyptian, on the other hand, contains numerous, complex characters that would be hard to etch on metal.

Then add to this that Joseph clearly believed that one character of Egyptian translated to a whole paragraph of English. This was a common belief at his time, and his Kirtland language translation documents clearly show that he held the belief."



These are perfectly legitimate questions that need answers!
 
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mmksparbud

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I wonder how many people have been deceived into believing that they do not need to keep the commandments of LOVE?

About as many as have been deceived that they need to keep the Mormon commandments of having to be married and the Melchizedek Priesthood, and all the rest of your stuff that are not ever mentioned in the bible and none of which, including the commandments, can save. It is the grace of God that allows us to keep His commandments. It is the end result of having the Holy Spirit in our lives and not the entrance ticket to celestial bliss with many wives.
 
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You said: "PROVE it! Show us the plates." That was your first two sentences. It sounds like saying that you wanted a sign. I believe that you have been deceived.

You believe that I'm deceived because you follow false prophets; Joseph Smith said that the Presbyterians were wrong and that my beliefs are an abomination to God.
 
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He is the way

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This one isn't related to the KJV, but I'm including it because it is another impossibility. Most church members don’t know that Jerusalem was sacked twice: once in 597 BC and again in 587 BC.
These are perfectly legitimate questions that need answers!

Lehi’s group left Jerusalem about 600 B.C. and came to the Americas. Gradually his posterity became divided. After Lehi died, the righteous followed his son Nephi northward. They became known as Nephites. (See 1 Nephi 1–22; 2 Nephi 1–5.)
From: Book of Mormon Time Line


So Lehi and his family left three years before Jerusalem was sacked the first time.
 
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He is the way

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You believe that I'm deceived because you follow false prophets; Joseph Smith said that the Presbyterians were wrong and that my beliefs are an abomination to God.
Joseph Smith did not say it:

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:18 - 19)

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

Which of the sects and professors had Joseph Smith been in contact with? Were their hearts set upon glorifying God? Did they have proper authority of the priesthood?
 
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mmksparbud

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Lehi’s group left Jerusalem about 600 B.C. and came to the Americas. Gradually his posterity became divided. After Lehi died, the righteous followed his son Nephi northward. They became known as Nephites. (See 1 Nephi 1–22; 2 Nephi 1–5.)
From: Book of Mormon Time Line


So Lehi and his family left three years before Jerusalem was sacked the first time.

The Book of Mormon starts with Lehi preaching "in the commencement of the first year of the reign of Zedekiah". This fact is given at least several other times in the BoM. Lehi definitely left after Jerusalem had been brutally raided in 597. He and his family lived through the terror.

Yet read the first few chapters of the BoM again and watch the tone. The brothers talk about the great city of Jerusalem -- how it could never fall. They have no interest in leaving the great city. "Neither did they believe that Jerusalem, that great city, could be destroyed according to the words of the prophets" (1 Ne 2). Further, why wasn't Lehi (a rich man) carried off to Babylon with everyone else. Why wasn't Laban carried off?
 
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Joseph Smith did not say it:

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:18 - 19)

18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

Which of the sects and professors had Joseph Smith been in contact with? Were their hearts set upon glorifying God? Did they have proper authority of the priesthood?

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."

Joseph Smith, not God, said that all our creeds are an abomination in God's sight.

The Mormon endowment depicted a Protestant minister as a hireling of Satan.

Joseph Smith said of our Holy God:
“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.”

Joseph Smith said that Presbyterians are wrong: 20 ..."I then said to my mother, 'I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.'"
(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1)

(FYI, I am not a Presbyterian.)
 
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