Islam The Critical Stalemate re Violence in Islam

Joyousperson · May 24, 2019

The reality with the ideology of Islam adopted by 1.5 billion Muslims is Muslims end up with this stalemate;

A. Evil Prone Muslims [320 million - 20% of 1.5 b]: Our interpretation of the Quran and Ahadiths is right and Allah will grant us a passage to paradise with eternal life. You moderate Muslims will not be highly rewarded.

B. Moderate Muslims [1.28 billion]: Our interpretation of the Quran and Ahadiths is right and Allah will grant us a passage to paradise with eternal life. You evil and violent prone Muslims will go to hell.

The criticalness of the above stalemate is the reality that the 320 million evil prone Muslims will continue to believe they interpret the Quran rightly and will with comply with those loads of XYZ-verses as a divine duty to please Allah so as to enable them a secured salvation to paradise with eternal life.
What is unfortunate to humanity and non-Muslims and also the moderate Muslim is the XYZ-verses result in acts of terrible terror, evil and violent acts, one type to violent acts among many other types is the following [need refinement];

I am not referring to the above terrorist attacks alone, but the whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts committed by the SOME of the 300 million Muslims. This can range from lying, petty crimes, rapes, murder to mass rapes and genocides committed in the name of the religion.

The fact is no humans nor any of the above group nor any other human has the authority to judge which acts as interpreted from the Quran and Ahadiths are right or wrong.

Only Allah can judge but Allah will not be appearing on earth any time to pronounced who is right and wrong other till Judgment Day.

Meantime, the evil prone Muslims will continue to believe their interpretation of the Quranic verses is right and they will continue to act out what they deemed as their divine duty, which in reality results in evil and violent acts committed upon non-Muslims and even moderate Muslims.

One point to note is we cannot blame the evil prone Muslims who happened to born that way thus are inclined to act upon evil and violent elements especially when salvation is at stake.
Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims
The perpetrators has to be accountable for whatever crimes they committed but the primary blame and root cause must be directed at the ideology of Islam with its inherent evil and violent elements and do not impose an overriding pacifist maxim to counter and limit the evil and violent elements from being acted upon.

In contrast, Christianity has an overriding pacifist maxim of love all, even one's enemies, give the other cheeks and the likes. This mean Christianity per se do not condone Christian killing any one. Therefore we cannot blame Christianity for the crimes of Christians.

Do you agree Islam as it is with this stalemate is a problem [past, present and future] for humanity?

Carl Emerson · May 24, 2019

Not when God is in control.

He has used Pagan nations to effect His will in the past and may do again in the future.

tampasteve · May 24, 2019

Please cite where you come up with the idea that there are "320 million evil prone Muslims"

Joyousperson · May 24, 2019

tampasteve said:
Please cite where you come up with the idea that there are "320 million evil prone Muslims"

I inferred that based on various sources of evidences.

1. DNA wise ALL humans has the inherent potential to commit evil and violence.
2. DNA wise 20% [conservatively] of all humans are unfortunately born with an ACTIVE evil tendency.
3. Therefore 20% of 1.6 billion Muslims, i.e. 320 million of Muslims are evil prone, i.e. having an active evil tendency.

I define evil-act as any act that has a negative impact on the well being of the individual and that of humanity.
Evil acts come in a range and continuum from lying, petty crimes, violence, rapes murder, to the extremes of mass rapes, mass murder and genocides.

Note:

UMass researcher finds most people lie in everyday conversation
The study, published in the journal's June issue, found that 60 percent of people lied at least once during a 10-minute conversation and told an average of two to three lies.
UMass researcher finds most people lie in everyday conversation

Lying is an evil act.
If 60% of people had lied in a researched finding, then it is likely > 60% of people would have an active tendency to commit evil acts.

Therefore my proposition;
2. DNA wise 20% [conservatively] of all humans are unfortunately born with an ACTIVE evil tendency.
is actually conservative.

My 20% [very conservative] is with reference to those who are likely to commit more serious crimes, violent and evil acts ranging from serious violence, killing, rapes and 1% of 1.6b are likely to commit mass rapes, mass murders and genocide.

Note I have evidence to verify my premise, i.e. the following stats [need some refinement]

plus a whole gamut and range of evil and violent acts committed by Muslim since 1400 year ago, at present and will continue into the future due to the stalemate above.

Not all 320 million will commit actual evil acts, but a pool of potential 320 million is a very frightening quantum and justified by the current trend of real evil and violence going on. Note it took only 18++ to do a 911 and a lone-wolf can create terrible havoc, terror, evil and violent acts of significant consequences. Just imagine the horror from a potential of 320 million with active tendencies to commit evil.

Therefore there is a pool of "320 million evil prone Muslims" with active evil tendencies and potential.
QED.

Limo · May 29, 2019

Joyousperson said:
2. DNA wise 20% [conservatively] of all humans are unfortunately born with an ACTIVE evil tendency..

I presume that this statics is scientific.
First we're now 1.8 b not 1.6 so, Evil Prone Muslems are 360 millions out of 1.8 billion
I'm also like you worried from :
Evil Prone Christians are 480 millions out of 2.4 billion
Evil Prone Seculars/Nonreligious/Agnostics/Atheists are 240 millions out of 1.2 billion
Evil Prone Hinduisms are 230 millions out of 1.15 billion
Evil Prone Buddhisms are 104.2 millions out of 521 million
Evil Prone Chinese traditional religion are 6.8 millions out of 394 million

So, let us start a WW to vanish all these 20% Evil Prone people from all religions.
Christians are the worst as they caused killing millions in among Christians wars in early and middle era Christianity since 2000 years.
They killed millions in crusader war
They killed 70 million in WWI and WWII
They killed 200000 Japanese with 2 bombs

I think the percentage among Christians is much higher than 20%

How it sounds Sir ?

Joyousperson · May 29, 2019

Limo said:
I presume that this statics is scientific.
First we're now 1.8 b not 1.6 so, Evil Prone Muslems are 360 millions out of 1.8 billion

I'm also like you worried from :
Evil Prone Christians are 480 millions out of 2.4 billion
Evil Prone Seculars/Nonreligious/Agnostics/Atheists are 240 millions out of 1.2 billion
Evil Prone Hinduisms are 230 millions out of 1.15 billion
Evil Prone Buddhisms are 104.2 millions out of 521 million
Evil Prone Chinese traditional religion are 6.8 millions out of 394 million

So, let us start a WW to vanish all these 20% Evil Prone people from all religions.
Christians are the worst as they caused killing millions in among Christians wars in early and middle era Christianity since 2000 years.
They killed millions in crusader war
They killed 70 million in WWI and WWII
They killed 200000 Japanese with 2 bombs

I think the percentage among Christians is much higher than 20%
How it sounds Sir ?

You seem to be ignorant of the critical facts. Your argument is false!

I have posted many times, i.e.

A Christian is a person who had entered into a relation with God via a covenant [divine contract] to comply strictly with the covenanted or contractual terms per the Gospels solely with support from the epistles, acts and relevant verses from the OT as appendix to the contractual terms.
The covenanted terms of Christianity included an overriding pacficist maxim of love all, even enemies.
This mean God commanded and the Christian agreed in the covenant [divine contract] not to kill, commit violence, hatred any one including enemies.
Therefore you cannot blame Christianity itself as evil and violent because Christianity do not allow any Christian in his contract with God to commit evil and violence.

There will be Christians [among the 20% evil prone] who killed and committed evil and violent acts, but they did it on their own free will, own human nature and not as Christian proper in the name of Christianity.

Those 'Christians' who went on the crusades went against God's overriding maxim of 'love your enemies' on their own free will for their own various reasons.
This will be the likely scenario on Judgment Day;

God to crusader Christian: You have killed humans and sinned despite my command to love your enemies! You will be punished if you don't have good justifiable reason to kill anyone.

The sinner will be given a chance to justify this actions and if justified in God's eyes he may be forgiven and punished if not justified. Btw, the all-knowing God would have already known the intention of the sinner in the sinner's heart during the time the fighting and killing were initiated, thus will judge wisely.

No pedophile Christian priests will quote the Gospels [there is no supporting verses] to justify their rapes of young children.
On the other hand, those Muslim gangs who committed extensive rapes of young children in UK did refer to the Quran and Ahadiths to justify their 'right' to rape non-Muslims children.

So Islam is different, why?
There is no overriding command in the Quran [core of Islam] to prohibit Muslims from killing non-Muslims.

[Just in case you use 5:32 as a point, note it is proven false here If Anyone Slew a Person (Qur'an 5:32) - WikiIslam]

The fact is the Quran exhorts Muslims to kill non-Muslims if the religions is under threat and the definition of threat is too vague that even drawings of cartoons is a threat of Islam, thus non-Muslims are killed for that. I understand 80% of Muslims will comply with the above.
But, the Quran has loads of evil prone elements to catalyze the pool of 360 million evil prone Muslims to commit evil and violence. This is so glaring and evident where these evil prone Muslims will quote Quranic verses to justify their killings of non-Muslims plus shouting Allah-u-Akbar in every occasion of violence and evil acts.
In addition, no humans on earth can judge they are wrong, only Allah can do that on Judgment Day, meantime no one can stop them from the killing spree in their belief God permit the killings.

All other religions, e.g. Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism, and others do not have obvious evil and violent verses in their holy texts that are so direct in encouraging believers to kill non-believers.
There may be some minor religions or cults which has evil and violent elements in their ideology and they should be condemned and dealt with.

Yes, the 20% of evil prone people from all over will commit evil and violence and humanity must addressed this problem, but we cannot blame their respective religion, if the religion is not inherently evil and violent.

The solution to this evil and violent acts, is to identify the root cause in these cases which is mostly psychological and should be dealt with on that basis.

Note I posted this thread;
Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims
i.e. do not blame Muslims but be critical of the ideology of Islam.

Note the focus is on the ideology not on the people.
This is why humanity had crushed and suppressed the ideology of Nazism, Japanese imperialism, fascism, Napoleon, Genghiz Khan and all those evil ideology from evil dictators and other sources.

The current problem is with Islamic-related evil and violence, we have ignored there is something wrong in the ideology of Islam that catalyzed and trigger SOME from the pool of 380 million evil prone Muslims and even good Muslims to commit terrible evil and violence [evidence is so glaring] to ensure their salvation in paradise with eternal life.

Without an evil ideology, there will be no catalyst to trigger, influence and inspire the believers to commit evil and violence in the name of God to justify their evil and violent acts.

Limo · Jun 9, 2019

Joyousperson said:
You seem to be ignorant of the critical facts. Your argument is false!

Rules of ethical debates state that you shouldnt target the person but the argument.
I've to say that you're ignorant by what you call sceintific facts, I don't know your reference to say it's sceintific.
You said human being nature but suddenly you turned into your sceintific facts to Muslims nature instead of human

I have posted many times, i.e.

A Christian is a person who had entered into a relation with God via a covenant [divine contract] to comply strictly with the covenanted or contractual terms per the Gospels solely with support from the epistles, acts and relevant verses from the OT as appendix to the contractual terms.
The covenanted terms of Christianity included an overriding pacficist maxim of love all, even enemies.
This mean God commanded and the Christian agreed in the covenant [divine contract] not to kill, commit violence, hatred any one including enemies.
Therefore you cannot blame Christianity itself as evil and violent because Christianity do not allow any Christian in his contract with God to commit evil and violence.

There will be Christians [among the 20% evil prone] who killed and committed evil and violent acts, but they did it on their own free will, own human nature and not as Christian proper in the name of Christianity.

Those 'Christians' who went on the crusades went against God's overriding maxim of 'love your enemies' on their own free will for their own various reasons.
This will be the likely scenario on Judgment Day;

God to crusader Christian: You have killed humans and sinned despite my command to love your enemies! You will be punished if you don't have good justifiable reason to kill anyone.

The sinner will be given a chance to justify this actions and if justified in God's eyes he may be forgiven and punished if not justified. Btw, the all-knowing God would have already known the intention of the sinner in the sinner's heart during the time the fighting and killing were initiated, thus will judge wisely.

No pedophile Christian priests will quote the Gospels [there is no supporting verses] to justify their rapes of young children.
On the other hand, those Muslim gangs who committed extensive rapes of young children in UK did refer to the Quran and Ahadiths to justify their 'right' to rape non-Muslims children.

So Islam is different, why?
There is no overriding command in the Quran [core of Islam] to prohibit Muslims from killing non-Muslims.

[Just in case you use 5:32 as a point, note it is proven false here If Anyone Slew a Person (Qur'an 5:32) - WikiIslam]

The fact is the Quran exhorts Muslims to kill non-Muslims if the religions is under threat and the definition of threat is too vague that even drawings of cartoons is a threat of Islam, thus non-Muslims are killed for that. I understand 80% of Muslims will comply with the above.
But, the Quran has loads of evil prone elements to catalyze the pool of 360 million evil prone Muslims to commit evil and violence. This is so glaring and evident where these evil prone Muslims will quote Quranic verses to justify their killings of non-Muslims plus shouting Allah-u-Akbar in every occasion of violence and evil acts.
In addition, no humans on earth can judge they are wrong, only Allah can do that on Judgment Day, meantime no one can stop them from the killing spree in their belief God permit the killings.

All other religions, e.g. Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism, and others do not have obvious evil and violent verses in their holy texts that are so direct in encouraging believers to kill non-believers.
There may be some minor religions or cults which has evil and violent elements in their ideology and they should be condemned and dealt with.

Yes, the 20% of evil prone people from all over will commit evil and violence and humanity must addressed this problem, but we cannot blame their respective religion, if the religion is not inherently evil and violent.

The solution to this evil and violent acts, is to identify the root cause in these cases which is mostly psychological and should be dealt with on that basis.

Note I posted this thread;
Islam - Do Not Bash Muslims
i.e. do not blame Muslims but be critical of the ideology of Islam.

Note the focus is on the ideology not on the people.
This is why humanity had crushed and suppressed the ideology of Nazism, Japanese imperialism, fascism, Napoleon, Genghiz Khan and all those evil ideology from evil dictators and other sources.

The current problem is with Islamic-related evil and violence, we have ignored there is something wrong in the ideology of Islam that catalyzed and trigger SOME from the pool of 380 million evil prone Muslims and even good Muslims to commit terrible evil and violence [evidence is so glaring] to ensure their salvation in paradise with eternal life.

Without an evil ideology, there will be no catalyst to trigger, influence and inspire the believers to commit evil and violence in the name of God to justify their evil and violent acts.

So all relegions are peaceful but Islam because of scripts support the violance.
I hate to say that because I believe the genuine Torah and Ingeel are also from Allah, but for the seek of discussion.
For your reference and all islamofobics like you
In a real sceintific study, the
Violence more common' in Bible than Quran
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...han-quran-text-analysis-reveals-a6863381.html

How is your perception?
For sure you'll reject because it's neither sceintific nor logical. Haterress of Islam an Muslims is stronger than anything.

For your info, sceintifacly as historical facts, crusades were ignited, powered, blessed by Popes of all chruches even the British Anglican Church with blessing from Orthodox Churches in East. Simply it's all and whole Christianity act.
Colonlism were fully supported by Church.
In WWARRS Church on both sides were pushing and blessing. Budhst and all relegions were supporting and pushing.

Christian world and Christian people owning the most violance record all over human history.
Oh the budiism powered and blessed the bloody Mongol empire
You close your eyes on all of these and only see Islam and Muslim despite of condemn from all Muslims.

Put sceince and logiic aside and speak freely and emotionally about Islam and Muslims with haterress.

Joyousperson · Jun 9, 2019

Limo said:
Rules of ethical debates state that you shouldnt target the person but the argument.
I've to say that you're ignorant by what you call sceintific facts, I don't know your reference to say it's sceintific.
You said human being nature but suddenly you turned into your sceintific facts to Muslims nature instead of human

Noted the ad hominen accusation, I should have stated, your argument lack the relevant supported argument.
'Ignorant' is not derogatory, I want to push the point the opponent in this case need to research deeper and wider.

Not sure of your other points?

So all relegions are peaceful but Islam because of scripts support the violance.

I have done the research, there are 3400++ or 55% of verses in the Quran -the core of Islam - is loaded with evil and violent elements.
These evil and violent verses will influence SOME [not all] Muslims from a pool of 320 million evil prone Muslims to commit terrible evil and violent acts. The evidence of this is very evident and glaring over the history of Islam's 1400 years history and at the present.

I hate to say that because I believe the genuine Torah and Ingeel are also from Allah, but for the seek of discussion.

I agree.
That is what the Quran claimed, i.e. the genuine Torah and Injeel are from Allah, but the present ones in the hands of the Jews and Christians respectively are the corrupted versions.

For your reference and all islamofobics like you
In a real sceintific study, the
Violence more common' in Bible than Quran
Someone analysed the Bible and Quran to see which is more violent

How is your perception?
For sure you'll reject because it's neither sceintific nor logical. Haterress of Islam an Muslims is stronger than anything.

For your info, sceintifacly as historical facts, crusades were ignited, powered, blessed by Popes of all chruches even the British Anglican Church with blessing from Orthodox Churches in East. Simply it's all and whole Christianity act.
Colonlism were fully supported by Church.
In WWARRS Church on both sides were pushing and blessing. Budhst and all relegions were supporting and pushing.

Christian world and Christian people owning the most violance record all over human history.
Oh the budiism powered and blessed the bloody Mongol empire
You close your eyes on all of these and only see Islam and Muslim despite of condemn from all Muslims.

Put sceince and logiic aside and speak freely and emotionally about Islam and Muslims with haterress.

I agree there are much more evil and violent elements in the Bible especially the OT than in the Quran.

However note the differences and various points;

1. The Torah is only effective divinely for the Jews. It is claimed the evil and violent elements are merely stories and not divine commands by God.
There are less extensive reports of Jews killing others in the name of Judaism that the extensive killings and violence by SOME Muslims in the name of Islam and Allah-u-Akbar.

2. The Torah in the Bible is abrogated by the Gospels [Injeel] in the NT except for some relevant verses.

3. The Gospels are imposed on the Christians but the Gospels has any overriding pacifist maxim, i.e. love all -even enemies, therefore Christianity cannot be blamed for the acts of Christians who are given free will to act on their own.

See my argument here, where;
The Covenant as a Watertight Defense for Christianity
Christians has a watertight defense against any accusations that Christianity is evil and violent in nature.

On the other hand Islam do not have an overriding pacifist maxim to defend itself against Islam as evil and violent in nature. Note for example the usual 5:32 verse as evidence Islam is non-violent;

5:32. For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel [Jews] that whosoever killeth a human being (for other than manslaughter [murder] or corruption in the [World] earth), it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.

5:33. The only reward [punishment] of those [infidels] who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption [mischief, wronged] in the land - will be that they [infidels] will be killed or crucified, or have their [infidels'] hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land.

In the above it would appear Islam forbid whosever to kill a human being BUT note the exception, i.e. manslaughter or corruption [fasadin] [a threat to the religion].
The problem is the Arabic term 'fasadin' is too loose to the extent even drawing of cartoon is deemed to be a threat to the religion of Islam, thus Muslims went on to kill many merely because of cartoons and commit many other terrible evil and violent acts on this basis.

Note there are ONLY 10 verses -out of 6236 verses!! - in the Quran that Muslim apologists can rely on to defend Islam as peaceful to non-Muslims. All these are proven as ineffective to prove [due to abrogation or being conditional] Islam is peaceful.

In addition, no one, me, YOU or any Muslim can judge whosever's interpretation of the above is right or wrong, ONLY Allah can judge on Judgment Day.
Meantime, Islam is in such a position that SOME Muslims [a pool of 320 million] can kill non-Muslims based on their interpretations of the Quran and Ahadith and no one on Earth can judge they are wrong.

JosephZ · Jun 11, 2019

Joyousperson said:
Muslim gangs who committed extensive rapes of young children in UK did refer to the Quran and Ahadiths to justify their 'right' to rape non-Muslims children

Can you provide a source for this?

Joyousperson · Jun 11, 2019

JosephZ said:
Can you provide a source for this?

Note here is one among many

As a Rotherham grooming gang survivor, I want people to know about the religious extremism which inspired my abusers

As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white c***” as they beat me.

They made it clear that because I was a non-Muslim, and not a virgin, and because I didn’t dress “modestly”, that they believed I deserved to be “punished”. They said I had to “obey” or be beaten.

As someone who has experienced life inside a grooming gang, I can tell you with certainty that none of this is likely to make any difference to the behaviours of groomers. Like terrorists, they firmly believe that the crimes they carry out are justified by their religious beliefs.
As a Rotherham grooming gang survivor, I want people to know about the religious extremism which inspired my abusers

Here is another reference;

Sacrificing girls to political correctness
The Casey Report makes clear that the child exploitation in Rotherham was carried out by men largely from the Pakistani Heritage Community. They are mostly Muslims. Victims of these grooming gangs have frequently reported that they were given an Asian name and told to read the Qur’an which also demonstrates the extent of Islamic influence.

Use of sex slaves by Islamists is now well known, whether it is by Boko Haram taking girls captive, or by ISIS fighters, or other Islamic groups. These groups justify their actions by reference to the Qur’an:

“O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused.” (Quran 33:59)

Women and girls are to cover up if they do not intend to invite abuse. In this way, non-Muslim girls who do not cover up are seen as inviting abuse.
Sacrificing girls to political correctness

I read about the accused in the Islamic grooming gang mentioned the Quran as a defense in court. I have to search for this.

JosephZ · Jun 12, 2019

Joyousperson said:
Note here is one among many.
As a Rotherham grooming gang survivor, I want people to know about the religious extremism which inspired my abusers

Sacrificing girls to political correctness

I read about the accused in the Islamic grooming gang mentioned the Quran as a defense in court. I have to search for this.

I have read articles like the ones you provided. I'm looking more for actual testimonies from the perpetrators where they themselves have refered to the Qur'an and hadiths to justify their "right" to rape non-Muslims children. If you can find where an accused has used this as a defense in court I would like to see it. Unfortunately cases like the sex grooming gang mentioned and child sexual exploitation in general are common and mostly carried out by non-Muslims, so that tells us that these crimes are not religiously motivated since they occur across a wide spectrum of society.

Joyousperson · Jun 13, 2019

JosephZ said:
I have read articles like the ones you provided. I'm looking more for actual testimonies from the perpetrators where they themselves have refered to the Qur'an and hadiths to justify their "right" to rape non-Muslims children. If you can find where an accused has used this as a defense in court I would like to see it. Unfortunately cases like the sex grooming gang mentioned and child sexual exploitation in general are common and mostly carried out by non-Muslims, so that tells us that these crimes are not religiously motivated since they occur across a wide spectrum of society.

Note sex grooming is common within all of humanity, but not sex-grooming gangs like the scale of what happened in the UK which were done by 99% Muslims.

The point is what happened in UK by these grooming gangs has elements that are associated with Islam, the Quran and Ahadith.

As I had argued, there is the stalemate dilemma, where no one can judge they are wrong in their interpretation. That is the problem where the ideology of Islam acts as a catalyst to these evil and violent acts.

Since you, me or others are not Allah [the only one who can judge] there is nothing we can do to stop these rape inclined to interpret the Quran they way they do. This potential will exists till eternity and manifests wherever there are weakness by Islam apologists [like you] in the secular system.

I bet if you have been the authorities you would have brush off the complains and let the problem fester.
If the authorities had recognized Islam and 20% of Muslim are a potential problem they would have paid greater attention to the Muslims involved thus prevented the horror that went on for 30 years.
It looks like profiling but if that is a fact, that should be the solution.

JosephZ · Jun 13, 2019

Note sex grooming is common within all of humanity, but not sex-grooming gangs like the scale of what happened in the UK which were done by 99% Muslims.[/QUOTE]
99% of the sex grooming gangs and cases of child sexual exploitation in the UK whether they be large or small are not committed by Muslims. That is a ridiculous claim to make. A simple google search can prove that wrong.

I found some examples of sex gang cases online and if you read the articles you will find that the motivations of the perpetrators are all similar, and have nothing to do with religion.

Revealed: child sex abuse gang 'with tentacles that go round the world'
Up to 300 children over the past 30 years in one of the worst cases of abuse uncovered in Britain.
Police smash Cornwall paedophile ring as six men jailed for abuse
Trio kept girl, 14, captive and forced her into sex with 20 men
Bournemouth paedophile ring brought to justice
Five found guilty in sex cult trial
Gang which ‘sold’ teenage boy jailed for more than 60 years
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/covert-police-operation-nets-660-suspected-pedophiles-in-u-k-1.2708340
Sydenham paedophile ring linked to church choir jailed for years of sex abuse - Administration news - NewsLocker
Norwich paedophile abuse: Sadomasochistic women led child sex ring
Six jailed for sex acts with girl 13 years old organized sex with 50 men
Men jailed for over 30 years of child sex abuse
Members of a paedophile gang have been jailed for a string of child sex offences against British boys in the UK and abroad.
Nine men guilty of grooming and abusing young girls
Who were the Rochdale grooming gang and what happened to them?
Telford gang is jailed for sexually abusing girls
Somali men convicted of running Bristol sex ring
Newcastle grooming gang members jailed for up to 29 years
Paedophile ring convicted of 'horrific' child sex offences
Five jailed over child sex ring lose appeals

Here are some excerpts from reports from the Office of the Children’s Commissioner in the UK.

Motive:

In cases of group-associated CSE, perpetrators came together in order to sexually exploit children. This was the case both for organised groups, where children were being sexually exploited for commercial profit, and more loosely-organised peer groups or networks where financial gain was minimal or non-existent. Beyond commercial profit, professionals suggested motives for sexual exploitation that included the exertion of power and control, a desire to humiliate, sexual gratification and a belief in entitlement to sex.

While street gangs are a type of ‘group’ the Inquiry distinguishes them from other groups as street gangs are formed independently of child sexual exploitation. The violence and hyper-masculinity of street gangs brings with it the sexual exploitation of girls and young women, and on occasion boys and young men, who are gang-associated. In cases of gang-associated CSE two broad motives were present. One was similar to cases of group-associated CSE where girls and young women would be passed around by young men in a casual manner, and used as their sexual property, motivated by a sense of entitlement. In other cases sexual violence was used to threaten, punish or control young women, and on occasion young men, who were either associated with rival gangs, or who were perceived to have ‘disrespected’ or upset members of the gang with which they were associated. Examples were found of girls and young women being bartered as part of an exchange or in exchange for a boy or young man avoiding punishment for example to settle drug debts. This motive was unique to gangs and applied to a range of girls and young women including sisters,
girlfriends, friends, cousins and daughters of gang members.

Who are the Perpetrators:

As with the victim data, individuals classified as `White’ form the largest group of perpetrators in both gangs and groups. BME individuals, particularly those loosely recorded or reported as `Asian’, are the second largest category of perpetrators reported via the call for evidence. However, White British males were the only perpetrators identified in all site visits, and perpetrators from various ethnic groups in addition to White British and Asian were found in both the site visits and call for evidence. Evidence gathered from victims also covered a much broader range of perpetrators of CSE in both gangs and groups, although in many cases far less reliable data could be produced on individual perpetrators.

http://cdn.basw.co.uk/upload/basw_84632-10.pdf
https://www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/If_only_someone_had_listened.pdf

Joyousperson said:
The point is what happened in UK by these grooming gangs has elements that are associated with Islam, the Quran and Ahadith.

You made the claim that Muslims belonging to gangs that sexually abused children referred to the Quran and hadiths to justify their 'right' to rape non-Muslim children. I have yet to hear about a case where the perpetrators have said anything about the Qur'an or hadiths justifying their actions. Trying to connect religious motivations to the sexual abuse of children is quite a stretch on your part.

Joyousperson · Jun 13, 2019

JosephZ said:
Note sex grooming is common within all of humanity, but not sex-grooming gangs like the scale of what happened in the UK which were done by 99% Muslims.

Click to expand...

99% of the sex grooming gangs and cases of child sexual exploitation in the UK whether they be large or small are not committed by Muslims. That is a ridiculous claim to make. A simple google search can prove that wrong.

I found some examples of sex gang cases online and if you read the articles you will find that the motivations of the perpetrators are all similar, and have nothing to do with religion.

Revealed: child sex abuse gang 'with tentacles that go round the world'
Up to 300 children over the past 30 years in one of the worst cases of abuse uncovered in Britain.
Police smash Cornwall paedophile ring as six men jailed for abuse
Trio kept girl, 14, captive and forced her into sex with 20 men
Bournemouth paedophile ring brought to justice
Five found guilty in sex cult trial
Gang which ‘sold’ teenage boy jailed for more than 60 years
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/covert-police-operation-nets-660-suspected-pedophiles-in-u-k-1.2708340
Sydenham paedophile ring linked to church choir jailed for years of sex abuse - Administration news - NewsLocker
Norwich paedophile abuse: Sadomasochistic women led child sex ring
Six jailed for sex acts with girl 13 years old organized sex with 50 men
Men jailed for over 30 years of child sex abuse
Members of a paedophile gang have been jailed for a string of child sex offences against British boys in the UK and abroad.
Nine men guilty of grooming and abusing young girls
Who were the Rochdale grooming gang and what happened to them?
Telford gang is jailed for sexually abusing girls
Somali men convicted of running Bristol sex ring
Newcastle grooming gang members jailed for up to 29 years
Paedophile ring convicted of 'horrific' child sex offences
Five jailed over child sex ring lose appeals

Here are some excerpts from reports from the Office of the Children’s Commissioner in the UK.

Motive:

In cases of group-associated CSE, perpetrators came together in order to sexually exploit children. This was the case both for organised groups, where children were being sexually exploited for commercial profit, and more loosely-organised peer groups or networks where financial gain was minimal or non-existent. Beyond commercial profit, professionals suggested motives for sexual exploitation that included the exertion of power and control, a desire to humiliate, sexual gratification and a belief in entitlement to sex.

While street gangs are a type of ‘group’ the Inquiry distinguishes them from other groups as street gangs are formed independently of child sexual exploitation. The violence and hyper-masculinity of street gangs brings with it the sexual exploitation of girls and young women, and on occasion boys and young men, who are gang-associated. In cases of gang-associated CSE two broad motives were present. One was similar to cases of group-associated CSE where girls and young women would be passed around by young men in a casual manner, and used as their sexual property, motivated by a sense of entitlement. In other cases sexual violence was used to threaten, punish or control young women, and on occasion young men, who were either associated with rival gangs, or who were perceived to have ‘disrespected’ or upset members of the gang with which they were associated. Examples were found of girls and young women being bartered as part of an exchange or in exchange for a boy or young man avoiding punishment for example to settle drug debts. This motive was unique to gangs and applied to a range of girls and young women including sisters,
girlfriends, friends, cousins and daughters of gang members.

Who are the Perpetrators:

As with the victim data, individuals classified as `White’ form the largest group of perpetrators in both gangs and groups. BME individuals, particularly those loosely recorded or reported as `Asian’, are the second largest category of perpetrators reported via the call for evidence. However, White British males were the only perpetrators identified in all site visits, and perpetrators from various ethnic groups in addition to White British and Asian were found in both the site visits and call for evidence. Evidence gathered from victims also covered a much broader range of perpetrators of CSE in both gangs and groups, although in many cases far less reliable data could be produced on individual perpetrators.

http://cdn.basw.co.uk/upload/basw_84632-10.pdf
https://www.childrenscommissioner.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/If_only_someone_had_listened.pdf

You made the claim that Muslims belonging to gangs that sexually abused children referred to the Quran and hadiths to justify their 'right' to rape non-Muslim children. I have yet to hear about a case where the perpetrators have said anything about the Qur'an or hadiths justifying their actions. Trying to connect religious motivations to the sexual abuse of children is quite a stretch on your part.

Note I did not claim 99% ALL grooming cases were committed by Muslims.

The point is all cases of rapes via grooming must be addressed and resolved without exception.

One of the most effective strategy of Problem Solving is to identify patterns in ALL the cases.

One of the pattern are from the following in your listing above which I am familiar, i.e.

Who were the Rochdale grooming gang and what happened to them?
Telford gang is jailed for sexually abusing girls
Somali men convicted of running Bristol sex ring
Newcastle grooming gang members jailed for up to 29 years
( Newcastle grooming gangs were allowed to abuse 700 girls because police blamed the victims, review finds)

There could be others if you read into the details. These perpetrators are identified as 'Asians' who committed a significant % of ALL grooming cases.
On further review, it is noted the majority of these 'Asians' rapists were actually Muslims, not Chinese, Korea, Indian, etc. Asians.

I have read a report where one or more of the accused mentioned in court, as using their religion as a justification for the rapes. I have to find this report.
But note the victims did report the rapists did refer to their religion as a justification for raping the victims.

This is why an effective problem solver must trace to the root causes where religion is mentioned.

The Quran and Ahadith do have verses that condone raping of non-Muslims.

Note, WHO ARE YOU, me nor anyone to judge their interpretation of the Quranic and Ahadith verses which condone the rapes of non-Muslims. ONLY Allah can judge on Judgment Day, which no one know when that day is.

Effectively, such grey verses should be eliminated from the Quran and Ahadiths but the Quran which is from God is immutable, i.e. no humans can edit or delete the verses in the Quran.

As such, the religion of Islam is inherently problematic in contributing to rapes by grooming gangs and other rapes, note Boko Haram kidnapped 200++ students and raped them and justified their acts with verses from the Quran and Ahadith. There are many other similar cases all over the world.

JosephZ · Jun 14, 2019

Joyousperson said:
There could be others if you read into the details. These perpetrators are identified as 'Asians' who committed a significant % of ALL grooming cases.
On further review, it is noted the majority of these 'Asians' rapists were actually Muslims, not Chinese, Korea, Indian, etc. Asians.

How do you know the majority were Muslims?

Joyousperson said:
I have read a report where one or more of the accused mentioned in court, as using their religion as a justification for the rapes. I have to find this report.

Yes you do, because until then your claim that the perpetrators referred to the Quran and hadiths to justify their 'right' to rape non-Muslim children is baseless.

Joyousperson · Jun 14, 2019

JosephZ said:
How do you know the majority were Muslims?

A think tank has claimed that 84 per cent of people convicted of child grooming-gang offences since 2005 were Asian.
In a new study, Quilliam says its researchers discovered differences in the way paedophiles from different backgrounds operated.
It said white offenders often acted alone, while child abusers from Asian backgrounds were more likely to work in so-called grooming gangs.
British-Pakistani researchers say grooming gangs are 84% Asian

The "Asians' are majority Muslims.

It is not 100% certain without actual details, but note by the looks, it is very likely these are Muslims.

(Top L-R) Khalid Hussain, Alladitta Yousaf, Kameer Iqbal, Assad Hussain (Bottom L-R) Raheem Ahmed, Moinul Islam, Kamran Khan

Note the 11 "Muslim sounding" names reported by BBC, here'
Eleven men charged over child sex abuse

Yes you do, because until then your claim that the perpetrators referred to the Quran and hadiths to justify their 'right' to rape non-Muslim children is baseless.

It is likely not all the perpetrators will quote from the Quran and Ahadiths.
I have read of one report [that is why it is not easy for me to retrace to why I read it] where the defendant mentioned Quran and religion.

Nevertheless we have reports of victims citing the rapists did quote the Quran and their religion.

JosephZ · Jun 14, 2019

Joyousperson said:
It is not 100% certain without actual details, but note by the looks, it is very likely these are Muslims.

That's quite a talent you have there. I've never been able to tell another persons religion based on physical appearance.

Joyousperson said:
It is likely not all the perpetrators will quote from the Quran and Ahadiths.
I have read of one report [that is why it is not easy for me to retrace to why I read it] where the defendant mentioned Quran and religion.

It's most likely almost none if any will. The fact that you can only recall one case and you are having trouble locating that one is evidence of that.

Joyousperson said:
Nevertheless we have reports of victims citing the rapists did quote the Quran and their religion.

How many reports?

JosephZ · Jun 14, 2019

Joyousperson said:
A think tank has claimed that 84 per cent of people convicted of child grooming-gang offences since 2005 were Asian.
In a new study, Quilliam says its researchers discovered differences in the way paedophiles from different backgrounds operated.
It said white offenders often acted alone, while child abusers from Asian backgrounds were more likely to work in so-called grooming gangs.
British-Pakistani researchers say grooming gangs are 84% Asian

While the article you linked is about the ethnicity of the perpetrators rather than religion, I will still address it.

The key words in the article you quoted are "A think tank has claimed." Just because they claim something, doesn't mean it's true.

The same article you linked provides information from more reliable sources that would lead one to question the think tank's claim.

CEOP research published in 2012 states 85 per cent of offenders found guilty of sexual activity with a minor in 2011 were white.

Another CEOP study released the following year found 75 per cent of offenders in grooming-gang cases were from Asian backgrounds, while 100 per cent in paedophile rings were white.

In an inquiry by the Office of the Children’s Commissioner in 2012, 36 per cent of victims of group or gang child abuse identified their attackers as white, 27 per cent as Asian, 16 per cent as black, with 16 per cent unspecified.

In my previous post I gave 20 examples of cases in the UK that would be considered grooming gangs and most of them involve non-Asian perpetrators. You can do a google search yourself and come to the same conclusion.

If we look at official reports on sex crimes in the UK, it is easy to see that the study done by that think tank is flawed.

Below are excerpts from reports released by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP):

2013

Ethnicity descriptors remain imprecise and as not all police forces responded to CEOP’s information request, the data is incomplete. Using broad groupings, all ethnicities were represented in the sample, however, a disproportionate number of offenders were reported as Asian. Of the 52 groups for which usable ethnicity data was provided, 26 (50%) comprised all Asian offenders, 11 (21%) all white offenders, 9 (17%) groups comprised offenders from multiple ethnicities, 4 (8%) comprised
all black offenders and there were 2 (4%) groups of exclusively Arab offenders. Of the 306 offenders whose ethnicity was provided for type 1 offending, a total of 75% were categorised as Asian, 17% were categorised as white, and the remaining 8% were categorised as black (5%) or Arab (3%). This is in contrast to those identified in type 2 group offending, who were reported as exclusively of white ethnicity.

2012

Where the ethnicity of perpetrators was provided, 545 were recorded as ‘White’, 415 were recorded as ‘Asian’, and 244 were recorded as ‘Black’.

2011

In relation to ethnicity, the data was often recorded to a particularly poor standard at the point of capture. ‘Ethnicity’ was often conflated with ‘nationality’ and neither factor captured according to a conventional or standardised classification scheme. Within the available dataset there was a significant difference between the groups. For groups one and two combined, the ethnicity of 38% of the offenders was unknown, 30% were white, 28% Asian, 3% Black and 0.16% Chinese. When only group one was analysed, the offenders were found to be 38% white, 32% unknown, 26% Asian, 3% Black, and 0.2% Chinese.

In the above reports the information on ethnicity of the perpetrators was extremely limited, but when you look at the total percentages of people who have been charged and convicted of sexual crimes in the UK of all types (Rape, sex with children, etc...), Asians represent only a small percentage

Demographic breakdowns of defendants prosecuted for sexual offences In 2011, males accounted for the vast majority of prosecutions for sexual offences (98.2 per cent). More specifically, males aged 18 and over accounted for 89.7 per cent of proceedings for sexual offences, with similar proportions for rape (89.6 percent) and sexual assault (89.2 per cent) proceedings (see Table 4.2). 9,042 defendants proceeded against for sexual offences in 2011 (91.2 per cent of total) were of a known ethnicity (see Table 4.4). Of these persons:

 78.0 per cent were White;
 9.9 per cent were Black;
 9.7 per cent were Asian;
 The remaining 2.4 per cent were of ‘other’ ethnicity.

Demographic breakdowns of offenders convicted for sexual offences In 2011, males accounted for the vast majority of offenders found guilty for sexual offences (99.0 per cent). More specifically, males aged 18 and over accounted for 91.8 per cent of offenders found guilty for sexual offences, with similar proportions for rape (94.0 per cent) and sexual assault (90.3 per cent) proceedings (see Table 4.8). 5,497 offenders found guilty of sexual offences in 2011 (92.0 per cent) were of a known ethnicity (see Table 4.10). Of these persons:

 80.9 per cent were White;
 7.6 per cent were Black;
 8.7 per cent were Asian;
 The remaining 2.8 per cent were of ‘other’ ethnicity.

When you compare the above percentages to the demographics of the UK, it shows that each group pretty much falls inline proportionally with the countries demographics.

80 per cent of the population were white British. Asian (Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi, other) ‘groups’ made up 6.8 per cent of the population; black groups 3.4 per cent; Chinese groups 0.7 cent, Arab groups 0.4 per cent and other groups 0.6 per cent.

While there is a slight difference in the percentages between perpetrators and citizens, this still tells us that Asians are not any more likely than any other group in the UK to commit sex crimes.

If you want to go one step further and look at all crime from petty theft to murder, you will find similar results.

So the bottom line, the study by the think tank found at the link you provided is flawed. Based on the limited official information that's available, there is no way that 84 per cent of people convicted of child grooming gang offences since 2005 until the time this study was released were Asian. Once again, you can do a google search yourself and filter the years and find that most cases involve white perpetrators.

What would cause this study to be in such error? Maybe it has to do where a large portion of their funding comes from.

A 2016 investigation found that Sam Harris, who has stated “we are war with Islam,” and supported the profiling of Muslims, gave Quilliam $20,000. Sam Harris and Quilliam’s head, Maajid Nawaz, also co-authored a book in 2015 called Islam and the Future of Tolerance: A Dialogue.

The same investigation revealed that Quilliam “has received over a million dollars in funding from an American conservative philanthropic organisation, with close ties to the Tea Party and extreme right-wing Christian networks.”

In 2013, the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation gave Quilliam $75,000. The Center for American Progress’s report, Fear, Inc. 2.0, lists the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation as part of the “Islamophobia network” as it also funds the David Horowitz Freedom Center and the Center for Security Policy.

Quilliam also received a grant totaling $1,080,997 from the John Templeton Foundation, covering the period from September 2014 to June 2017. A 2015 peer-reviewed study concluded that the Templeton Foundation was a “key player in the funding of right-wing organisations.”

dzheremi · Jun 14, 2019

OP, I would be very careful about this kind of argumentation (in fact, I'd suggest you abandon it), both due to the lack of hard facts behind the statistics you are putting out there (with the exception of the Quilliam study, I take it; I don't know about the research group specifically, but I have seen them cited in mainstream British news, so I assume they are legitimate), and this idea of "Muslim names" and "looks" meaning that the people bearing those names or looks are inherently violent, or prone to violence, or whatever the point is.

I don't know how it is in China, where I will assume for the sake of argument that any Arabic name is likely adopted by a Muslim and is a mark of their Muslim-ness (as it is in the case of other multi-religious societies, like Ethiopia), but some of the names you are talking about as being "Muslim" are actually religiously neutral. Khalid, for instance, is more or less the Arabic version of "Charlie" or "Charles", and may be used by Christian and Muslim alike. Here is the Facebook page of a Christian priest apparently from Lebanon named Khalid Karomi. Iqbal also; it means "fortunate" in Arabic, but it is not generally associated with Arabs (not strictly so, anyway), since it is distinctly related to those with Pakistani or Persian origins (Urdu being a heavily Persianized and Arabized version of Hindu; most disinterested linguists claim them to be mutually intelligible, essentially the same language separated by the religion and culture of the speaker/writer -- i.e., when used by Hindus and other non-Muslims in India who write it in the Devanagari script, it is Hindi, but when used by Muslims of India, Pakistan, etc. and written in Perso-Arabic script with a large number of Persian and Arabic loanwords in it, it is Urdu).

That being so, we should not be surprised to find one of the most famous modern Pakistani Christians to have the name Iqbal Masih (Masih is Arabic -- and hence Persian, Urdu, etc. -- for "Messiah", referring to Jesus, used by people of all religions who speak those languages).

Regarding the looks...I mean, come on...aside from the guy on the top right in the last photo set with the obvious prayer spot on his head (from years of doing prostrations during Islamic prayer; it's weird, but my Egyptian friends tell me that the more fundamentalist Muslims in their country take it as a point of pride to have this, and so they try to make it as big as possible to show how pious they are), all of these people look like they could be members of my Church or another native Middle Eastern/North African church. Having a certain "look" doesn't make you a terrorist at all. Our clergy and monastics grow long beards, too, though not with the same motivation as the Muslims (obviously).

isis-palm-sunday-bombing-alexandria-coptic-christians-endless-struggle-survival-1.jpg

Are these all terrorists, because if you lined them up in mugshot type photos, they could look scary if you're not used to being around brown people or whatever? Well they're not. These are Coptic Christian (Egyptian) mourners at a funeral, carrying the coffin of the martyr Ghattas Atallah, one of the victims of an attack on a bus of worshipers headed to a monastery recently, if I remember correctly.

And men with scary beards! Look at all these!

These are all bishops of the Coptic Orthodox Church (the man in the center carriny the cross in his hand and a cane in the other is Pope Shenouda III, the then-Pope of the Church, r. 1971-2012), but if you take them out of that obvious environment, take off their robes and clerical turbans (a hold-over from the days of the Ottoman Empire, when each group was required to have distinctive dress from each other group so that the government could tell immediately by looking at you to which religion or sect you belonged; the Oriental Orthodox got turbans, I believe the Eastern Orthodox got fezzes, etc.), and place them against a plain background, they can also look scary and imposing.

So, again, please do not argue this way. You don't need to be racist to criticize Islam, and criticism of Islam is not in itself racist (since Islam is a religion practiced by all kinds of different ethnic and racial groups, not a race), but when you make your criticism about how these people over here look a certain way or have certain names, it certainly comes off as at least prejudiced against the people as people, rather than a critique of their religion. It is as a result ineffective, cruel, and only gives fuel to the people who would equate all critique of Islam with racism and criminal mindsets (as the Islamic bloc at the UN -- particularly Pakistan, actually -- has been trying to do for at least the last 20 years via proposed worldwide/UN enforced 'blasphemy laws' targeting criticism of Islam under the guise of preventing insult to millions of people).

Joyousperson · Jun 14, 2019

JosephZ said:
That's quite a talent you have there. I've never been able to tell another persons religion based on physical appearance.

As I had stated it is very likely and note their names which is typical Islamic.

It's most likely almost none if any will. The fact that you can only recall one case and you are having trouble locating that one is evidence of that.

Note my expectation is always objectivity.
On this issue, I admit my confidence level on my claim is low due to insufficient evidence.

How many reports?

One.

They made it clear that because I was a non-Muslim, and not a virgin, and because I didn’t dress “modestly”, that they believed I deserved to be “punished”. They said I had to “obey” or be beaten.
...
As someone who has experienced life inside a grooming gang, I can tell you with certainty that none of this is likely to make any difference to the behaviours of groomers. Like terrorists, they firmly believe that the crimes they carry out are justified by their religious beliefs.
As a Rotherham grooming gang survivor, I want people to know about the religious extremism which inspired my abusers

Note the above issue relate to the rapes by certain grooming gangs whose members are mostly Muslim in UK. I admit I don't have sufficient evidence to insist my point is very objective.

The main contention is Islam condone raping non-Muslims in certain conditions as one of the evil and violent acts inherent within the ideology of Islam.

Islamic scholar ‘says Allah allows Muslim men to RAPE non-Muslim women to humiliate them'
Islamic scholar ‘says Allah allows Muslim men to RAPE non-Muslim women to humiliate them'

No Islamic scholar would dare to invent their own views on Islam else it is hell for them. Thus the view of the scholar above had came from the Quran and Ahadith. I won't go into the details of the verses.

But the point here is the STALEMATE Dilemma inherent within Islam.
WHO ON EARTH can judge and insist those with the above views, Muslim men can rape non-Muslim is wrong?

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