Russia and Ukraine - why?

ArmyMatt · Jun 12, 2019

StanU said:
That is an astounding statement. Truly, astounding. "Sure, they kill you, but you MUST still obey them because they have a proper document" (which they don't btw). Praying to God with Filaret doesn't count, but say Met. Pavel of UOC-MP can faith-kill people and still remain valid Bishop.

it's actually not that astounding, sad as it is if you look at Church history.

StanU · Jun 12, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
it's actually not that astounding, sad as it is if you look at Church history.

Can't think of any example of this beyond Ukraine and Yugoslavia, actually. The lengths my orthodox brethren go in excusing or ignoring anything negative on Mother Russia can be even unprecedented.

ArmyMatt · Jun 12, 2019

StanU said:
I'm pretty sure I've read everything published on the topic (in fact I linked the long interview which is I bet the very same you reference, as Met. Makarii is not nearly as much in spotlight as Filaret). I'm not even sure what "UOAC and KP were not getting along" would even mean. You have to understand that in pre-OCU UOC-KP, Filaret's right-hand man and the second in command was none other than Met. Epiphany, and KP's official spokesperson was Arch. Evstraty (Zorya). Neither of them are with Filaret in his recent hissy fit; same is true for most of the UOC-KP structure and people. Filaret is under delusion, maybe because they let him keep his office and the Cathedral and don't complain when he wears the silly white Russian hat in public.

Another thing Filaret and you don't understand is how little the registry record mean. Yes, Filaret didn't complete the procedures to "close the books" so to speak, and neither did Makariy. So both entities have the business number and listed in the system. But ALSO in the system is the Ministerial decree of Jan. 30th, declaring both structures defunct. And a separate decree registering "The Metropolis of Kyiv of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Orthodox Church of Ukraine" created as MERGER of the two former structures. So Filaret will find it difficult to operate the old UOC-KP entity, and will have to register a new one to do anything legal (like accept new Dioceses and register new parishes). All he can do with the old structure is maybe drain its bank account (which as I understand still has substantial funds and which he still controls).

Yes, they are.
I have a question though. Would you serve a Memorial Service for someone baptised in the KP? For example, a child? Just curious.

some of the interviews that Makary gave in the months that followed, spoke of the tension not just between himself and Filaret.

and no, they are not. I would not do a memorial service for a schismatic because I can't. I would do a trisagion for one to be sure, and the Akathist of St Varus.

ArmyMatt · Jun 12, 2019

StanU said:
Can't think of any example of this beyond Ukraine and Yugoslavia, actually. The lengths my orthodox brethren go in excusing or ignoring anything negative on Mother Russia can be even unprecedented.

you need to look early. there is a big one pre-Ephesus that is on the calendar.

StanU · Jun 12, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
some of the interviews that Makary gave in the months that followed, spoke of the tension not just between himself and Filaret.

The fact is, Makariy shows up for Synods and votes with the majority, tensions or not. I would bet his bishops are bigger fans of OCU Tomos, on average, than UOC-KP bishops are, and of all of them only Filaret and Ioasaph (the one in Russia) are on record even semi-denying legitimacy of Tomos, OCU, or its Statutes.
And yep, they're all valid bishops. BTW UOC-USA and UOCC never treated UAOC or UOC-KP laity as "schismatics", so yeah, you could if your Bishop decided so.

ArmyMatt · Jun 12, 2019

I can see he would be more pro the OCU, but I am not holding my breath that he will be okay with whatever happens. he is definitely more subtle than Filaret.

StanU · Jun 12, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
I can see he would be more pro the OCU, but I am not holding my breath that he will be okay with whatever happens. he is definitely more subtle than Filaret.

He is on board with the current Statute. He could protest if Filaret gets enough of what he wants (which is basically everything and the Moon), but that possibility is remote.

Interesting tidbit: a UOC-KP bishop revealed that EP already offered to regularize the church in Ukraine, back in 2008 (when the government tried to push for it, too). One offer was basically OCU: recognition as a Metropolis and Autocephaly, provided that they elect a new Primate (not Filaret). Filaret refused. Then they offered to accept UOC-KP into EP as a Metropolis and make Filaret a EP Metropolitan, with intent to grant Autocephaly in the future. Filaret, again, refused. He kicked and screamed in 2018, too, but found a match in then-President Poroshenko and was placated - for a time. Honestly, I'm not a fan of this guy, can't see why some Ukrainian patriots like him so much. He is, actually, like Trump in that his rhetoric is quite revealing: he would not accept anything as a "true, independent, free, Ukrainian Church" unless it is a Patriarchate and he is in charge. It's super clear every time he opens his mouth. He's still a valid bishop, though...

ArmyMatt · Jun 12, 2019

StanU said:
He is on board with the current Statute. He could protest if Filaret gets enough of what he wants (which is basically everything and the Moon), but that possibility is remote.

Interesting tidbit: a UOC-KP bishop revealed that EP already offered to regularize the church in Ukraine, back in 2008 (when the government tried to push for it, too). One offer was basically OCU: recognition as a Metropolis and Autocephaly, provided that they elect a new Primate (not Filaret). Filaret refused. Then they offered to accept UOC-KP into EP as a Metropolis and make Filaret a EP Metropolitan, with intent to grant Autocephaly in the future. Filaret, again, refused. He kicked and screamed in 2018, too, but found a match in then-President Poroshenko and was placated - for a time. Honestly, I'm not a fan of this guy, can't see why some Ukrainian patriots like him so much. He is, actually, like Trump in that his rhetoric is quite revealing: he would not accept anything as a "true, independent, free, Ukrainian Church" unless it is a Patriarchate and he is in charge. It's super clear every time he opens his mouth. He's still a valid bishop, though...

I am sure he could. and no, Filaret is not.

Platina · Jun 13, 2019

Makary is obviously more okay with the current status of the OCU than Philaret is, but at the same time, he's not 100% on board. He's keeping his UAOC alive as a safety net, if need be. He's obviously not totally convinced this OCU project is going to make it. Heck, even before the December council he was voicing his doubts that the council would even happen, and we know that it only happened because Constantinople's Synod stepped in and wrote the statutes and convened the council, because the KP and UAOC were incapable of working together and getting these tasks done.

ArmyMatt · Jun 13, 2019

Platina said:
Makary is obviously more okay with the current status of the OCU than Philaret is, but at the same time, he's not 100% on board. He's keeping his UAOC alive as a safety net, if need be. He's obviously not totally convinced this OCU project is going to make it. Heck, even before the December council he was voicing his doubts that the council would even happen, and we know that it only happened because Constantinople's Synod stepped in and wrote the statutes and convened the council, because the KP and UAOC were incapable of working together and getting these tasks done.

and if memory serves, he was unhappy that of all people to head the OCU, it was Filaret's right hand man.

rusmeister · Jun 13, 2019

StanU said:
Can't think of any example of this beyond Ukraine and Yugoslavia, actually. The lengths my orthodox brethren go in excusing or ignoring anything negative on Mother Russia can be even unprecedented.

Concerning me, this accusation is untrue. I have admitted the wrongs done by Russia, and only said that they do not excuse other wrongs done by others. You say that the others did no wrong to speak of. It looks to me like the shoe is on the other foot.

It’s a shame, because I would do what I could to help restore the natural ties of relationship between Russians and Ukrainians. Until about ten years ago, they were quite amicable. If annexing the Crimea was wrong, it was equally wrong for Ukraine to flirt with NATO before that, whose only raison d’être is to point a sword at Russia. But those are all things that we could try to roll back, to restore what can be restored. But not if the sides are demonizing each other.

ArmyMatt · Jun 13, 2019

I would also say, Met Onufry went to Putin and told him to get the Navy out of Ukrainian waters.

StanU · Jun 13, 2019

Platina said:
Makary is obviously more okay with the current status of the OCU than Philaret is, but at the same time, he's not 100% on board. He's keeping his UAOC alive as a safety net, if need be. He's obviously not totally convinced this OCU project is going to make it. Heck, even before the December council he was voicing his doubts that the council would even happen, and we know that it only happened because Constantinople's Synod stepped in and wrote the statutes and convened the council, because the KP and UAOC were incapable of working together and getting these tasks done.

LOL. A community where everyone is on board is hardly healthy, now is it?
You're actually right about the Council and the role of EP in it, and EP deserves much kudos for that. This was because of big egos of some hierarchs, no one more than Filaret. The Statutes were specifically written to be more favourable to UAOC faction (and those MP bishops who would join) than Filaret would have wanted.

StanU · Jun 13, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
I would also say, Met Onufry went to Putin and told him to get the Navy out of Ukrainian waters.

No he didn't, because Putin's position is that these are Russian waters. He might have asked to free the POW saylors, a situation where Putin is as blatantly at fault as humanly possible. Good for Onufry I guess.

StanU · Jun 13, 2019

rusmeister said:
Concerning me, this accusation is untrue. I have admitted the wrongs done by Russia, and only said that they do not excuse other wrongs done by others. You say that the others did no wrong to speak of. It looks to me like the shoe is on the other foot.

Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine victim. There's no equivalency. There are a lot of foulups on Ukraine's side, and Poroshenko lost his post because of that, but it isn't any of Russia's business now is it?

rusmeister said:
It’s a shame, because I would do what I could to help restore the natural ties of relationship between Russians and Ukrainians. Until about ten years ago, they were quite amicable.

Sigh. Until 2014 they were quite amicable. Then Russia invaded. Also, Russia has a very particular view of what "the natural ties of relationship" actually are; thank you, no.

rusmeister said:
If annexing the Crimea was wrong, it was equally wrong for Ukraine to flirt with NATO before that, whose only raison d’être is to point a sword at Russia.

Even if "flirting" with NATO was wrong, "equally"? "EQUALLY"???
BTW, NATO is the only reason Russia doesn't have its fingers in Latvia right now, and that's why Ukraine must not just "flirt" but strive to become a full member. And this goal is now in Ukrainian Constitution.

rusmeister said:
But those are all things that we could try to roll back, to restore what can be restored. But not if the sides are demonizing each other.

Get. back. to. your. own. borders. And then talk. OK?

StanU · Jun 13, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
and if memory serves, he was unhappy that of all people to head the OCU, it was Filaret's right hand man.

Filaret strong-armed everyone he could to make sure his right-hand man is the Primate, hoping that he'll be Filaret's puppet. Boy was he wrong. How ironic is it that Makary and Epiphanii are on the same side now?

note: according to Makary, his intended nominee was Ilarion of Winnipeg of UOCC (a EP hierarch). That was a very rational choice at the time, and I clearly see Makary's reasons. It turned out that Epiphany was a better choice, actually, but Makary's concerns were valid.

StanU · Jun 13, 2019

ArmyMatt said:
I am sure he could. and no, Filaret is not.

He is. But given that there's a good chance he'll break off of the OCU on June 20th, and given that his strongest support are two dioceses in Russia with apparently all of 4 parishes between them, his status could be someone else's concern soon.

Almost forgot: what would you do when GOC officially recognizes OCU? They officially released a cleric to OCU (to become Bishop Epiphanius of Olvia of the OCU) and prayed together in Istanbul two days ago, so this is more than likely in the near future.

ArmyMatt · Jun 13, 2019

StanU said:
No he didn't, because Putin's position is that these are Russian waters. He might have asked to free the POW saylors, a situation where Putin is as blatantly at fault as humanly possible. Good for Onufry I guess.

it might have been he asked for their release, I'll have to recheck.

ArmyMatt · Jun 13, 2019

StanU said:
He is. But given that there's a good chance he'll break off of the OCU on June 20th, and given that his strongest support are two dioceses in Russia with apparently all of 4 parishes between them, his status could be someone else's concern soon.

Almost forgot: what would you do when GOC officially recognizes OCU? They officially released a cleric to OCU (to become Bishop Epiphanius of Olvia of the OCU) and prayed together in Istanbul two days ago, so this is more than likely in the near future.

no he is not. and since I am not in the Greek Synod, I am pretty sure my position won't change, as none of them are my bishop, and my bishop only supports Met Onufry.

Platina · Jun 13, 2019

StanU said:
Almost forgot: what would you do when GOC officially recognizes OCU? They officially released a cleric to OCU (to become Bishop Epiphanius of Olvia of the OCU) and prayed together in Istanbul two days ago, so this is more than likely in the near future.

No, //they// did not officially release anyone. Evstraty Zorya claimed on his FB page that Archimandrite Epiphanios' local bishop released him - so that's one bishop, not the Synod (and even this info is unconfirmed). But this would be no surprise - we already know there are individual bishops within the Greek Church that support what Constantinople has done. Perhaps the Greek Church will recognize the OCU, but it hasn't happened yet.

And Epiphany Dumenko openly declared in his talk in Istanbul that his presence was unplanned and unannounced - so Abp. Ieronymos had no clue Epiphany was going to be there. It's not like he traveled to Istanbul with the intent of recognizing the OCU. Did they pray together? I guess, technically, since they were both at the same Vespers, but heck, if a Catholic or Protestant shows up to Vespers for a visit, no one thinks that means the Orthodox and Protestant prayed together and therefore they're now recognizing Protestantism!

Russia and Ukraine - why?

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