Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

BNR32FAN · Jun 13, 2019

Hammster said:
I don’t think so if context is considered. Judas has just left to betray Christ. So the question of true and false followers would soon be on their minds. Whether there is fruit is the key. Those who bear fruit are true believers. Those who don’t (not stopped) are not true believers, and they will be cut off.

I think there are other examples with the parable of the sower and seeds, and the wheat and tares.

Why did Jesus say to His faithful 11 apostles in verse 4 “abide in Me” if they are incapable of failing to abide?

Shimokita · Jun 13, 2019

Hammster said:
Just so I understand, what do you think is meant by faith alone?

Exactly what it states, faith to the exclusion of everything else.

BNR32FAN · Jun 13, 2019

TheSeabass said:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 2:21

I am just repeating what scriptures say.

Both verse show that Abraham had an obedient faith and not Luther's faith only.
And James shows Abraham was justified by his obedient works.

Gal 3:6 says Abraham believed God, it does not say Abraham had belief only. We know from Hebrews 11:8,17 that Abraham's belief included obedience.

Abraham was not justified by works of the flesh, meaning he was not justified by keeping God's law flawlessly and perfectly for he sinned.

He was justified by faith and again from Hebrews 11 we know his faith included obedience not a dead faith void of obedience. No verse ever says he was justified by faith alone.

Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Abraham had faith in Genesis 12 and Abraham's faith included his obedience in moving from his house, land and kindred, Genesis 12 cf Hebrews 11:8. So his obedient faith would have already been counted as righteousness in Genesis 12. His being justified was a process from Genesis 12 to Genesis 22:12. The faith onlyist cannot show were Abraham was justified at onw quick moment in time when he had 'faith only'.

Do you realize the Greek word translated to justified not only means to be counted as righteous or made right with God but also means to be shown or evinced as being righteous? Abraham was not made right with God or counted as being righteous by his works. He was shown as being righteous by his works.

TheSeabass · Jun 13, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
The bible says that Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6

But did not Abraham also obey God when he obeyed God in Genesis 12:1?

Yes, Romans 4:5 says he that "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." As you point out, Abraham had faith in Genesis 12 cf Hebrews 11:8. So why would his faith not be counted as righteousness in Gen 12?

Faith onlyist would have us think Abraham was justified by 'belief only" in Genesis 15:6:

1) Gen 15:6 does not say Abraham believed only.
2) faith onlyist ignore that Abraham ALREADY had an obedient faith prior to Gen 15
3) there is no indication at all that prior to Gen 15:6 that Abraham was a lost, unforgiven reprobate prior to Gen 15:6. He would have already been in a saved covenant relationship with God prior to Gen 15:6.

BNR32FAN · Jun 13, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Yes, Romans 4:5 says he that "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." As you point out, Abraham had faith in Genesis 12 cf Hebrews 11:8. So why would his faith not be counted as righteousness in Gen 12?

Faith onlyist would have us think Abraham was justified by 'belief only" in Genesis 15:6:

1) Gen 15:6 does not say Abraham believed only.
2) faith onlyist ignore that Abraham ALREADY had an obedient faith prior to Gen 15
3) there is no indication at all that prior to Gen 15:6 that Abraham was a lost, unforgiven reprobate prior to Gen 15:6. He would have already been in a saved covenant relationship with God prior to Gen 15:6.

Amen Abraham had already shown the evidence of his faith by leaving his home for the promised land. He believed by faith and acted on that faith.

BNR32FAN · Jun 13, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Yes, Romans 4:5 says he that "believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." As you point out, Abraham had faith in Genesis 12 cf Hebrews 11:8. So why would his faith not be counted as righteousness in Gen 12?

Faith onlyist would have us think Abraham was justified by 'belief only" in Genesis 15:6:

1) Gen 15:6 does not say Abraham believed only.
2) faith onlyist ignore that Abraham ALREADY had an obedient faith prior to Gen 15
3) there is no indication at all that prior to Gen 15:6 that Abraham was a lost, unforgiven reprobate prior to Gen 15:6. He would have already been in a saved covenant relationship with God prior to Gen 15:6.

Something else to consider, would Abraham had been counted as righteous if he had believed God about the promised land but didn’t leave his home and do as God told him and didn’t go to the promised land?

TheSeabass · Jun 13, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Abraham was not made right with God or counted as being righteous by his works. He was shown as being righteous by his works.

There is NO VERSE that says Abraham was "made" or "shown" righteous BEFORE he obeyed God's will. There is no verse anywhere that shows any man was 'made' or shown' righteous BEFORE that man obeyed God's will. One is unrighteous before God and remains unrighteous unless/until he does righteousness.

1 John 3:10 the present tense of the verse has it reading.... he that continues to do unrighteousness continues to not be of God.

NO verse says God first saves a person for having faith only, then after that person is saved by faith only they can then obey.

The order Paul puts in Romans 6:17-18:
1) were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin-justified

Had those in Rome had not "obeyed from the heart" then they would have continued in unrighteousness and continued to not be of God.

Romans 16:6 "obedience UNTO righteousness" not "obedience because one is already righteous". Night and day difference.

Acts 10:35 does not say God first accepts one, then that one works righteousness.

BNR32FAN · Jun 13, 2019

TheSeabass said:
There is NO VERSE that says Abraham was "made" or "shown" righteous BEFORE he obeyed God's will. There is no verse anywhere that shows any man was 'made' or shown' righteous BEFORE that man obeyed God's will. One is unrighteous before God and remains unrighteous unless/until he does righteousness.

1 John 3:10 the present tense of the verse ahs it reading.... he that continues to do unrighteousness continues to not be of God.

NO verse says God first saves a person for having faith only, then after that person is saved by faith only they can then obey.

The order Paul puts in Romans 6:17-18:
1) were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin-justified

Had those in Rome had not "obeyed from the heart" then they would have continued in unrighteousness and continued to not be of God.

Romans 16:6 "obedience UNTO righteousness" not "obedience because one is already righteous". Night and day difference.

Acts 10:35 does not say God first accepts one, then that one works righteousness.

Yes I agree that was my point friend.

TheSeabass · Jun 13, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Something else to consider, would Abraham had been counted as righteous if he had believed God about the promised land but didn’t leave his home and do as God told him and didn’t go to the promised land?

Absolutely not.

"Righteous" simply means 'right doing' How can one ever be counted as 'right doing' when they are 'wrong doing'? Where has God ever counted the impenitent sinner as "right doing'?

Hammster · Jun 13, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Then false professors are in Christ and grafted into the vine?

I don’t see anything about grafted.

Hammster · Jun 13, 2019

TheSeabass said:
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" James 2:21

I am just repeating what scriptures say.

While ignoring context. It’s the only way for synergists to “prove” their theology.

Hammster · Jun 13, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Both verse show that Abraham had an obedient faith and not Luther's faith only.
And James shows Abraham was justified by his obedient works.

Yes, he was obedient. And Luther said that we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. So there’s that.

Hammster · Jun 13, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Gal 3:6 says Abraham believed God, it does not say Abraham had belief only. We know from Hebrews 11:8,17 that Abraham's belief included obedience.

It says Abraham believed God AND.

Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
— Galatians 3:6

This time you didn’t add, you subtracted.

Hammster · Jun 13, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Abraham had faith in Genesis 12 and Abraham's faith included his obedience in moving from his house, land and kindred, Genesis 12 cf Hebrews 11:8. So his obedient faith would have already been counted as righteousness in Genesis 12. His being justified was a process from Genesis 12 to Genesis 22:12. The faith onlyist cannot show were Abraham was justified at onw quick moment in time when he had 'faith only'

More context issues. You make it look as if 4:5 refers to Genesis 12, when the passage clearly refers to chapter 15.

Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
— Genesis 15:6

Hammster · Jun 13, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Why did Jesus say to His faithful 11 apostles in verse 4 “abide in Me” if they are incapable of failing to abide?

My guess is to show where the fruit comes from.

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. (John 15:4, NASB)

I’m not sure it’s a command.

Hammster · Jun 13, 2019

Shimokita said:
Exactly what it states, faith to the exclusion of everything else.

For what purpose?

Hammster · Jun 13, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Amen Abraham had already shown the evidence of his faith by leaving his home for the promised land. He believed by faith and acted on that faith.

At what point did God declare him righteous, and for what reason?

Shimokita · Jun 13, 2019

Hammster said:
For what purpose?

Excludes everything other than faith for justification (as understood in the imputed framework).

That is the broadest definition that some Protestants use. Some others would define it more narrowly.

If we are talking about a transition from a state of unrighteousness to righteousness, works play no part in that from a Catholic perspective. Our main gripe with the phrase "faith alone" in that context is that the phrase excludes not only works but everything except faith (i.e. hope and love are excluded). Trent is fairly clear about that.

truefiction1 · Jun 13, 2019

Hammster said:
Here you’ve actually made a distinction between justification and sanctification. That’s good.

Distinction is one thing, but separation is quite another, and these distinct things cannot be separated. It is an ontological impossibility due to how we've been designed by God from the beginning.

BNR32FAN · Jun 13, 2019

Hammster said:
I don’t see anything about grafted.

No it doesn’t say grafted it only says they are in Christ and implies that they attached to the vine. They cannot be cut off from the vine if they are not attached. I used the word grafted in in reference to Romans 11.

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

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