Climate change - hoax or reality?

Philip_B

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This thread was moved from News & Current Events to the Kitchen Sink. Threads in News & Current Events need to have a link to a credible news site.​
I think the thread may belong more appropriately in Christian Philosophy & Ethics
 
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FreeinChrist

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I think the thread may belong more appropriately in Christian Philosophy & Ethics
Or Physical & Life Sciences.

This works for now.
 
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rambot

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Whilst that may be a conclusion that sits well with the enlightened and the comfortable I am going to challenge it on a number of grounds.
  1. It is merely an assertion and the reality is we need to know more about the individual circumstances of someone opposed to action on climate change.
  2. It rings very thin when someone on say 30K has to listen to people on 250K telling him his motivation is Greed while he/she may well simply be struggling to provide food and shelter for the family, and is looking at policies that make this harder not easier. I did indicate in an earlier post that I felt this was more a reflection of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
And clearly I make this statement as one who is thoroughly convinced by the evidence and do believe it is part of our sacred duty of custodianship of the planet to try and move public policy so that humankind is on the right side of the ledger when it comes to the Environment and Climate Change.

But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.
1) Fair enough. Though I do think many people are unwilling to make any changes to their life and then use that as the lense to look at the science.

2) Regardless, though, of how we feel about something being done, something DOES have to be done. The people making 30k struggling to live need to recognize this but, the people making over 150K have to recognize that struggle to and see the importance in helping those making 30k; dare I say shoulder a larger part of the burden (since, let's be real) the person making 250k is having a greater impact anyways. Ultimately, it's the middle class people arguing against supporting the poor that are going to be against the changes necessary to keep this planet at a reasonable state of repair.
 
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rambot

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That's interesting since many climate change activists are accused of being in it for the money themselves. Al Gore, for instance, made a bundle and refurbished his reputation while flying tens of thousands of miles on a private jet for the purpose of speaking about how awful it is that we put pollutants into the air. And he is far from being the only example.
Are accused by you? I'm sure there ARE people who are in it for the money and I agree they should be shouldering a bigger burden.

The issue though Albion, is that these "activitists" who are in it for the money, wouldn't need to be "in it for the money" because governments would be enacting intelligent legislation to deal with environmental problems of ALL kinda.

Before Greta Thunberg was around, there were very, VERY few CC activists in Europe because generally (not, GENERALY speaking I mean), the governments there need very little pressure to make positive choices for their environment.
 
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Albion

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Are accused by you?

No, that is not a particularly hot issue with me, but it is with some other people. Therefore, it is fair to comment about it, considering that the basic issue had already been raised by someone else in this thread.
 
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rambot

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No, that is not a particularly hot issue with me, but it is with some other people. Therefore, it is fair to comment about it, considering that the basic issue had already been raised by someone else in this thread.
Sure. I mean there's 7 billion people on this planet. Almost EVERYTHING has been talked about.
Without concrete examples to discuss, comments like that feel like a fan in a windstorm.
 
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Philip_B

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1) Fair enough. Though I do think many people are unwilling to make any changes to their life and then use that as the lense to look at the science.

2) Regardless, though, of how we feel about something being done, something DOES have to be done. The people making 30k struggling to live need to recognize this but, the people making over 150K have to recognize that struggle to and see the importance in helping those making 30k; dare I say shoulder a larger part of the burden (since, let's be real) the person making 250k is having a greater impact anyways. Ultimately, it's the middle class people arguing against supporting the poor that are going to be against the changes necessary to keep this planet at a reasonable state of repair.
I don't feel the discussion is helped by identifying villians based on a class demographic. It is easy to wander from here into the politics of vilification. What we need is clear, and not overstated data and appropriate and viable solutions. Exporting coal and then complaining about the world polution caused by those who burn it does not cut the mustard. I would like to see our governments fund independent scientists to help us see the path.

Since the Industrial Revolution we have seen
  • An huge advance in manufacturing
  • A real increase in CO2 emissions
  • A huge increase in world population
  • A massive ammount of deforestation
  • The advent of plastics
  • A significant increase in volcanic activity.
It is not a single cause problem and it is unlikely thst there will be a single solution.
 
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mukk_in

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ADVISOR HAT

This thread was moved from News & Current Events to the Kitchen Sink. Threads in News & Current Events need to have a link to a credible news site.​
Thanks for moving the thread. Here are some recent and relevant news links:

Donald Trump tells Prince Charles US has 'clean climate'

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...charles/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.af2047360025

Trump Blames India, China for Pollution, Says US Has the Cleanest Climate

'No sense of cleanliness': Donald Trump blames India, China for climate change

They have been incorporated into the original OP as well.
 
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Zoii

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If we produced and ate much less food then much more land could be managed to sequester carbon. This would mean better health for both man and planet. So the tradeoff for a healthier planet would be healthier humans.
Its not even about less food, but rather the types of food. It takes 1.5-2 cleared acres for each cow raised, while raising chickens requires far less land.

Cash-crops like coffee, are notorious for clearing massive acreages but have no food value.
Vegetable crops should be grown that are high yield with strong nutritional value.
 
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Zoii

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That the USA blames other countries and pronounces itself as 'clean' is very disturbing. The fact is - all but a few countries are NOT clean.... and that the USA would imagine it is NOT a major contributor, coupled with the insistence of distancing itself from climate obligations under the Paris Accord - this does not sit well with the rest of us who want to do the right thing by this planet (though so far I dont think collectively we are doing well)

I can't fathom what is going on with the US nation. Its denial of climate change; its imposing tariffs on most nations causing a destabilising of world economy; Its intent to militarily threaten eg Iran, South China seas. It is a very worrying partner that appears increasingly unreliable.
 
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mukk_in

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That the USA blames other countries and pronounces itself as 'clean' is very disturbing. The fact is - all but a few countries are NOT clean.... and that the USA would imagine it is NOT a major contributor, coupled with the insistence of distancing itself from climate obligations under the Paris Accord - this does not sit well with the rest of us who want to do the right thing by this planet (though so far I dont think collectively we are doing well)
Great job Zoii, keep it coming:).
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Its not even about less food, but rather the types of food. It takes 1.5-2 cleared acres for each cow raised, while raising chickens requires far less land.

That's actually quite efficient. One cow can produce milk, meat, butter, cheese, and yogurt for several families, plus lots of fertilizer.
 
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ObadiahHaidabo

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New player jumping in.

Yes, I think climate change is real, and apocalyptic, in the full sense of that word. Don't worry - no quotes from Revelation below.

I'm sure scientists aren't 100% accurate but I think they're 95% accurate and that's more than enough. Is it caused by man? Yes, though I'd allow for other environmental causes beyond our control to also play a contributory role.

Here are some unfortunate realities, as I see them:

1. We are a violent, warlike, selfish, tribalist species. On Star Trek, we are not the humans - we're the Klingons or Cardassians if we're being honest. We are not going to come together as a planet to solve this problem. I don't know how you can read the Old Testament or read history since as far back as it's been written and conclude that our species has that capability. We will go out in a blaze of war and violence.

2. I think we are already past the point of no return, as in "sixth extinction" no return. Even the best-case, probably already outdated IPCC predictions include unjustifiable assumptions of magic, such as planetary-scale atmospheric carbon scrubbers and other new technologies, which do not exist. Their non-apocalyptic models assume concerted, cooperative interplanetary action, as if every nation will make this is a priority and every citizen becomes an angel. Give me a break. We can't even get tiny local wars stopped. We can't stop extinction of animals, much less of man.

3. Every year, the measurements are waaay worse than +2C, and there is very little political momentum towards change. Keep in mind, +2C is already submerged cities and hellish weather, and that's assuming all feedbacks are understood, which they probably are not. We are tracking to more like +4 or +5C, and according to some, by the time you get to +6C only fungi can survive. If you look at 2018's news, there really has been no progress towards getting us down even in the neighborhood of +2C. I don't think people appreciate this isn't about "more hurricanes" it's about the end of humanity.

4. I do agree with the earlier point that God is in charge. He's always in charge! But...so what? It's only relevant from a late-night comfort point of view, and yes, I do think we can take comfort in the fact that whatever is going to happen is going to happen because that's God's plan. However, that doesn't change our own actions.

5. I definitely don't think we can just sit back and put our feet up and say "oh well". However, my reasoning is perhaps stranger than some's. From a Christian world view, once we start talking about apocalypse, I think certain rules come into play. And the #1 rule is that it's folly to set a date. Jesus says we will not know, and I don't care if calculate your date by analyzing Biblical prophecy or running models in supercomputers. What makes you think this prediction is any more accurate than the last 10,000 times? Just because it's science? It's still the product of humans. The model may show it's the end of humanity, but from a theological point of view, truly trusting that it's the end of mankind is unbiblical.

6. Because we all have children and grandchildren, let us take appropriate measures to fight against this threat. Immediately that turns into which actions, which policies, etc. and that's a brutal mix of science and politics I won't go into. I truly believe it will not matter, but I also truly do not believe that my passing out tracts outside an abortion clinic is going to matter either.

BTW I'm a Bible-believing gun-owning modernity-condemning fundamentalist paleoconservative.
 
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rambot

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jacks

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That the USA blames other countries and pronounces itself as 'clean' is very disturbing.
HERE is an interesting chart on the top green house gas emitters. China is the big dog, (27%) but the US is number 2 (14%). BTW Zoii Australia is only 1.33%. Good job. :)
 
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Philip_B

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And I guess we wonder what we could say to this. Firstly I guess it is important to smile, in order to hold back the tears. There is zero moral leadership from the Trump Administration on Climate Change, or as he prefers to call it, the weather. He does however constructively work to make other leaders look good, and with some of them that is hard work. I guess there is not much chance he will read one of Al Gore's books, however I suspect it would help. Perhaps my greatest concern is that he wants to see the problem in terms of the geo-political divides, rather than as a global problem.

If we dig up coal in Australia, it doesn't really matter in which country it gets burned, because the result is the global issue, not the regional issue.

. BTW Zoii Australia is only 1.33%. Good job. :)
Many of us hope we can do better. Interestingly in our last federal election a couple of high profile deniers lost their seats which hopefully send a clear message to the parliament that a reasonable chunk of the electorate wants a better response.

From a christian perspective much of this comes down to the ecology, or theology of the environment. Our relationship with the environment should be one of nurture, as we nurture the environment and the environment nurtures us. Our care of the environment is a reflection of our relationship with God, and expresses some of the love of God for all of humankind, as we are all nurtured, and called to nurture.

The Five Marks of Mission:
The mission of the Church is the mission of Christ
  1. To proclaim the Good News of the Kingdom
  2. To teach, baptise and nurture new believers
  3. To respond to human need by loving service
  4. To transform unjust structures of society, to challenge violence of every kind and pursue peace and reconciliation
  5. To strive to safeguard the integrity of creation, and sustain and renew the life of the earth
 
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Yekcidmij

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People need to be educated regarding health and nutrition. Sadly this wonderful knowledge is known to only relatively few of us health nuts. :sigh: Overweight and obesity are caused by eating waaaay too much food.

I don't necessarily disagree with those points. I just disagree with some sort of centralized planning, controlling, administering, and enforcing people's food consumption and private food production. Sounds a little totalitarian and fraught with severe risks.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I don't necessarily disagree with those points. I just disagree with some sort of centralized planning, controlling, administering, and enforcing people's food consumption and private food production. Sounds a little totalitarian and fraught with severe risks.

We actually have much of that now.
 
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