Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

TheSeabass · Jun 12, 2019

Hammster said:
You really need to read all of chapter three instead of cherry picking verses that you think support your view.

The context of the book of Galatians is Paul warning those Christians in Galatia who left the gospel thinking they could be justified by the OT law of Moses. Those verses I chose is Paul proving the OT law cannot justify one in God's sight. So what was cherry picked?

Hammster said:
And on top of that, you actually add to what those verses say.

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Paul is contrasting the NT gospel (Spirit) versus the OT law (works of the law, perfected by the flesh).
Paul is telling them they were justified by the NT gospel not by their own flesh in keeping the law perfectly.

Hammster said:
Did you suffer so many things in vain⁠—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Paul again is contrasting the NT gospel (hearing of faith) versus the OT law of Moses (works of the law).

Again, Paul is showing them how the NT gospel, which they left (Galatians 1:6-8), justified them and return to the OT law that cannot justify them.

Hammster said:
Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
— Galatians 3:2-9

How and when was Abraham justified? When he heard the gospel and believed. Before the law. Before future obedience. That’s grace.

Abraham was justified by having an obedient belief in doing what God told him to do, Hebrews 11:8 Hebrews 11:17. And that obedient belief was reckoned to him as righteousness. We too today can be justified by an obedient faith that does what God says in believing (John 8:24) repenting (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and being baptized (Mark 16:16). Obviously what we today are told to do under the NT is different from what Abraham was told to do under the OT but the underlying common denominator of both Abraham and us is an...…(drum roll)…………………... "obedient faith"...……………..

Romans 4:12 "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

Abrahams' real spiritual descendants are not the fleshly Jews, but anyone who "walks in the steps of that faith" of Abraham (Galatians 3:29). If one desires to be a Christian, then one must obediently walk in the steps of that faith of Abraham. An obedient faith is the common denominator between Abraham and Christians.

So again, what did I cherry pick?

GodsGrace101 · Jun 12, 2019

bcbsr said:
As I've always been saying, over and over, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:9,10

Good.
So what you're saying is that since Jesus desired that we have a certain character, Mathew 5:3-9, and desired us to do HIS works...then it is proper and useful and desirable that we obey God and do HIS works.

If we agree on this...we're a good step ahead.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 12, 2019

Hammster said:
You really need to read all of chapter three instead of cherry picking verses that you think support your view.

And on top of that, you actually add to what those verses say.

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain⁠—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
— Galatians 3:2-9

How and when was Abraham justified? When he heard the gospel and believed. Before the law. Before future obedience. That’s grace.

Again:

Abraham believed God and was justified when he left his home of Ur and travelled to Haran and then to Caanan.

He obeyed God and so God gave him ever more tasks to fulfill.

When we use God's grace...He gives us even more grace.

Genesis 12:1

TheSeabass · Jun 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Again:

Abraham believed God and was justified when he left his home of Ur and travelled to Haran and then to Caanan.

He obeyed God and so God gave him ever more tasks to fulfill.

And this is why I see the justification of Abraham was a process, not something that happened one quick moment in time when Abraham supposedly had "faith only" as some claim he had.

As God tested-proved Abraham, (Genesis 22:1), God tests/proves us today. We must also go through a process, but for us that process is belief (John 8:24) repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16).

GodsGrace101 · Jun 12, 2019

TheSeabass said:
And this is why I see the justification of Abraham was a process, not something that happened one quick moment in time when Abraham supposedly had "faith only" as some claim he had.

As God tested-proved Abraham, (Genesis 22:1), God tests/proves us today. We must also go through a process, but for us that process is belief (John 8:24) repentance (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism (Mark 16:16).

The bible says that Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
Genesis 15:6

But did not Abraham also obey God when he obeyed God in Genesis 12:1?

Righteousness just means to be right with God.
Abraham was right with God from Genesis 12:1

As we see God in the entire life of Abraham from the moment he heard from God... we can see that, indeed, righteousness/justification/sanctification is indeed a process.

Hammster · Jun 12, 2019

TheSeabass said:
The context of the book of Galatians is Paul warning those Christians in Galatia who left the gospel thinking they could be justified by the OT law of Moses. Those verses I chose is Paul proving the OT law cannot justify one in God's sight. So what was cherry picked?

Paul is contrasting the NT gospel (Spirit) versus the OT law (works of the law, perfected by the flesh).
Paul is telling them they were justified by the NT gospel not by their own flesh in keeping the law perfectly.

Paul again is contrasting the NT gospel (hearing of faith) versus the OT law of Moses (works of the law).

Again, Paul is showing them how the NT gospel, which they left (Galatians 1:6-8), justified them and return to the OT law that cannot justify them.

Abraham was justified by having an obedient belief in doing what God told him to do, Hebrews 11:8 Hebrews 11:17. And that obedient belief was reckoned to him as righteousness. We too today can be justified by an obedient faith that does what God says in believing (John 8:24) repenting (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) and being baptized (Mark 16:16). Obviously what we today are told to do under the NT is different from what Abraham was told to do under the OT but the underlying common denominator of both Abraham and us is an...…(drum roll)…………………... "obedient faith"...……………..

Romans 4:12 "And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised."

Abrahams' real spiritual descendants are not the fleshly Jews, but anyone who "walks in the steps of that faith" of Abraham (Galatians 3:29). If one desires to be a Christian, then one must obediently walk in the steps of that faith of Abraham. An obedient faith is the common denominator between Abraham and Christians.

So again, what did I cherry pick?

Still adding to scripture.

“Abraham was justified by having an obedient belief in doing what God told him to do,”

By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
— Hebrews 11:8

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
— Hebrews 11:17

Neither of these verses say he was justified by obedient faith.

Galatians says

Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
— Galatians 3:6-8

So how was he justified? By works of the flesh (Hebrews 11) or by faith (Galatians 3; Romans 4)?

Scripture says by faith.

Hammster · Jun 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Again:

Abraham believed God and was justified when he left his home of Ur and travelled to Haran and then to Caanan.

He obeyed God and so God gave him ever more tasks to fulfill.

When we use God's grace...He gives us even more grace.

Genesis 12:1

Scripture says he was justified by faith.

Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
— Galatians 3:6-8

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3

GodsGrace101 · Jun 12, 2019

Hammster said:
Still adding to scripture.

“Abraham was justified by having an obedient belief in doing what God told him to do,”

By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
— Hebrews 11:8

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
— Hebrews 11:17

Neither of these verses say he was justified by obedient faith.

Galatians says

Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
— Galatians 3:6-8

So how was he justified? By works of the flesh (Hebrews 11) or by faith (Galatians 3; Romans 4)?

Scripture says by faith.

Scripture says by action.
Faith requires action or it's a dead faith, as James states.

You and others call it a work.
God calls it obedience.

Due to his faith,,,
Abraham MOVED and took ACTION.

He took action when he left Ur.
He took action when he offered Isaac.

Faith is action.
Faith without action is a useless faith.
James 2:20

3 John 1:4-5
Walking in truth.
Walking.
Doing.
Action.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 12, 2019

Hammster said:
Scripture says he was justified by faith.

Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
— Galatians 3:6-8

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
— Romans 4:3

Works without faith are useless.
Faith without works is useless.

Hammster · Jun 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Scripture says by action.
Faith requires action or it's a dead faith, as James states.

You and others call it a work.
God calls it obedience.

Due to his faith,,,
Abraham MOVED and took ACTION.

He took action when he left Ur.
He took action when he offered Isaac.

Faith is action.
Faith without action is a useless faith.
James 2:20

3 John 1:4-5
Walking in truth.
Walking.
Doing.
Action.

I don’t disagree with that. However, scripture never says that those actions justified him.

Hammster · Jun 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Works without faith are useless.
Faith without works is useless.

I don’t disagree. But actions don’t justify us.

bcbsr · Jun 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Good.
So what you're saying is that since Jesus desired that we have a certain character, Mathew 5:3-9, and desired us to do HIS works...then it is proper and useful and desirable that we obey God and do HIS works.

If we agree on this...we're a good step ahead.

Not in order to be saved but because he are saved. Notice the order of things in Eph 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Salvation is by faith apart from works. But having been saved, one is born of God (created in Christ Jesus) the outcome being a person who does good works as a result of being saved.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 12, 2019

Hammster said:
I don’t disagree with that. However, scripture never says that those actions justified him.

Actions do NOT justify us.
Faith justifies us.
Right after we attain faith,,,,
good deeds and obedience are necessary.

Hebrews 4:6
6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

God has not changed.
He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 12, 2019

Hammster said:
I don’t disagree. But actions don’t justify us.

If you want to leave it at that sentence,
then I'd have to agree.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 12, 2019

bcbsr said:
Not in order to be saved but because he are saved. Notice the order of things in Eph 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Salvation is by faith apart from works. But having been saved, one is born of God (created in Christ Jesus) the outcome being a person who does good works as a result of being saved.

I AGREE!!!

Now, could YOU agree that Ephesians DOES speak about doing good deeds/works.

Could you agree that AFTER we are saved we are God's hands and feet on this earth and we SHOULD obey God and do HIS bidding?

When we do not obey God...isn't that known as sin?

I NEVER said works save us.
Faith only saves.
But works do come after....as Ephesians says.

Hammster · Jun 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
Actions do NOT justify us.
Faith justifies us.
Right after we attain faith,,,,
good deeds and obedience are necessary.

Hebrews 4:6
6Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

God has not changed.
He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I’ve never argued against obedience.

Shimokita · Jun 12, 2019

bcbsr said:
Paul's rhetoric is speaking of works generically as you can see from the context: "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5

Of course I don't expect to persuade you, but to show viewers who exercise basic reading comprehension skills that your interpretation simply doesn't stand up under scrutiny.

There are no works by which we can approach God as though he is under an obligation to pay us for them, certainly. We cannot approach God and state "you owe us the Heaven because we gave money to the poor, or because we did not commit adultery." Such a view would clearly be wrong.

The question is whether the gift of salvation may be rejected, and what that rejection might consist of.

Do you believe that you have free will to reject God, or does he force you to accept him, like a puppet?

Shimokita · Jun 12, 2019

bcbsr said:
Not in order to be saved but because he are saved. Notice the order of things in Eph 2:8-10 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Salvation is by faith apart from works. But having been saved, one is born of God (created in Christ Jesus) the outcome being a person who does good works as a result of being saved.

But note the verb tense, "have been saved".

If you decide to jump into the ocean and are drowning I can throw you a life preserver, pull you up to the deck, and say "You have been saved my friend."

It doesn't mean that you are incapable of jumping back in the ocean and drowning yourself again.

-57 · Jun 12, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Jude 1:4 does not mean those false teachers were unconditionally, randomly predetermined by God before the world began to be false teachers and condemned, but their punishment they received was already written about in the OT. These false teachers in Jude 1:4 would receive and be examples of the same condemnation as Sodom and Gomorrah and other ungodly people in the OT received. Look at the NLT of this verse "I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

God has predetermined ungodly people will be punished but God does not decided for men which ones will be or not be ungodly, men choose that for themselves.

Romans 9:17 does NOT say "Pharaoh was chosen not to be saved". All the verse say is that God had a twofold purpose with Pharaoh, 1) to show His power over Pharaoh and 2) declare His name throughout the earth. Again, nothing here at all about God declaring Pharaoh to be lost before the world began.

When one hears the gospel then one must choose to believe what the gospel says or choose not to believe the information contained within the gospel. If/when you choose to listen to the 'fake news' as President Trump calls it, you must choose to believe or not believe the information the news is giving out.

Note how those in Acts 2:37 believed the word of God preached to them by Peter, it pricked them in their hearts. Yet those in Acts 7:54 were 'cut to the heart" by God's word, rejecting God's word. Why the difference? Free will. If God has already determined who will or will not be saved, then preaching the gospel is useless, meaningless, it can do nothing and change nothing.

PS,
"saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives."
Sound familiar to a man made doctrine some on this forum hold to???

No, the verse shows long ago, which i believe meand before the foundation of the world thoe people were chosen for condemnation so Gods will would be accomplished.
Same with Pharaoh.

-57 · Jun 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:
I AGREE!!!

Now, could YOU agree that Ephesians DOES speak about doing good deeds/works.

Could you agree that AFTER we are saved we are God's hands and feet on this earth and we SHOULD obey God and do HIS bidding?

When we do not obey God...isn't that known as sin?

I NEVER said works save us.
Faith only saves.
But works do come after....as Ephesians says.

Didn't you saying works keeps us saved? Or, are you saying works demonstrate you're saved?

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

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