Prison Rehabilitation vs Revenge

Robert6671

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Larson contends that open prison punishments can be more effective than closed prison punishments in that they don't distract the prisoner from the misdeeds that brought them there, as harsh American prisons often do:

Imagine living on ... knowing every minute of every day, that this is not your home, these people are not your family, your friends, your children, and you are always one misstep from a cell in a closed prison. You have strict curfews. In town you carry an electronic anklet. Yet nothing here feels unfair or unreasonable. You have, after all, committed a crime serious enough to make a range of other remedies untenable. Nothing you can see or touch or smell or taste, and no interaction with staff gives you anything to blame or resent about the system that brought you here.
Larson's depiction of open prisons as carving out space for purer reflection and remorse is fascinating — and undoubtedly alarming to supporters of the American model of incarceration.

Defenders of the highly punitive American prison would argue that the Nordic attitude toward prisons in general is naive in its assumption that prisoners can be treated as normal humans who can improve. Yet Nordic countries remain quite safe after allowing people who have committed the most severe crimes to spend time in them, generally for far shorter sentences than in the U.S.

It seems that there's a self-fulfilling dimension to the way a society chooses to imprison those that it deems criminal: If you tell someone they cannot get better, they won't; if you tell someone they can, they might just have a decent shot.


Most of this was taken from
Sweden's Remarkable Prison System Has Done What the U.S. Won't Even Consider

Amazing focusing on rehabilitation instead of brutality and retribution work.
 

Robert6671

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The idea of rehabilitation can lead to a very dangerous path. The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment <p> C.S. Lewis
Yeah imprisoning someone for breaking the law, followed with abusive guards...been in jail before seen that personally...physical and sexual abuse from other prisoners. Get out of jail and your not allowed to vote, no decent job wants you. I mean education, job training, learning how to manage your funds, counseling and seeing that they have a job and place when they get out...that is a horrible idea. Know the American way is better...punishment by imprisonment and physical and sexual abuse and then keep on punishing them when they get out...yeah that is working so well
 
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Robert6671

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What works with Nordic people doesn't necessarily work with everybody...

The point is the punishment is supposed to be imprisonment...treat a person like an animal and that is what you will get. Most people in prison were not born bad or mentally ill. Many things let to there imprisonment, Poverty being at the top of the list followed with physical and sexual abuse. Lack of proper education...trying learning at an inner city school...been there done that for year. I flunked almost all my work...and I got a passing grade. Thank god I only spent one year in an inner city school. Jesus speaks of forgiveness and turning other cheek...and I know many many many Christians who can not do that. Remember that 19 year old boy who shot up a school. Two years before the state of Florida found him to be mentally ill and decided to not waist there money on a poor kid. Couple years later that mentally ill kid buys guns and shoots up a school. And now the state of Florida which is predominately Christian wants to execute him.
 
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Magillacuddy

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Most of this was taken from
Sweden's Remarkable Prison System Has Done What the U.S. Won't Even Consider

Amazing focusing on rehabilitation instead of brutality and retribution work.

While I agree sentencing laws need addressed, I think tiny Norway is a small crab apple, and America is a super massive pumpkin. I don't believe comparisons like this are valid in a practical way.

Just yesterday I was watching Live PD and it showed this poor kid with two pills being charged with a felony. He probably swiped them from his parents. Now he will likely be a felon, and be burdened with that all his life. That is one example I think we can work on.

Most people don't think crimes of a sexual nature can be rehabbed out of people. I tend to agree. That is one example of something we probably shouldn't try.
 
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Chesterton

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Yeah imprisoning someone for breaking the law, followed with abusive guards...been in jail before seen that personally...physical and sexual abuse from other prisoners. Get out of jail and your not allowed to vote, no decent job wants you. I mean education, job training, learning how to manage your funds, counseling and seeing that they have a job and place when they get out...that is a horrible idea. Know the American way is better...punishment by imprisonment and physical and sexual abuse and then keep on punishing them when they get out...yeah that is working so well
I'm a big believer in making prison life more humane, in lessening the violence, and the prisoners' ability to exploit and abuse each other. But that's a separate issue from rehabilitation.
 
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Robert6671

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While I agree sentencing laws need addressed, I think tiny Norway is a small crab apple, and America is a super massive pumpkin. I don't believe comparisons like this are valid in a practical way.

Just yesterday I was watching Live PD and it showed this poor kid with two pills being charged with a felony. He probably swiped them from his parents. Now he will likely be a felon, and be burdened with that all his life. That is one example I think we can work on.

Most people don't think crimes of a sexual nature can be rehabbed out of people. I tend to agree. That is one example of something we probably shouldn't try.

Agreed, murder can fall under many categories, but sexual predators...no one wants them
 
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Robert6671

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While I agree sentencing laws need addressed, I think tiny Norway is a small crab apple, and America is a super massive pumpkin. I don't believe comparisons like this are valid in a practical way.

Just yesterday I was watching Live PD and it showed this poor kid with two pills being charged with a felony. He probably swiped them from his parents. Now he will likely be a felon, and be burdened with that all his life. That is one example I think we can work on.

Most people don't think crimes of a sexual nature can be rehabbed out of people. I tend to agree. That is one example of something we probably shouldn't try.

Small country but population is on par with our largest state...Again...rehabilitation and education...job training...there not fools there...you can serve your time in a college dormatory situation or be locked in a cell for your sentence, you can be treated like a human being or spend your sentence in solitary. Treating them like humans letting them see there family,letting them go to work get an education counseling..learn to be a meaningful member of society. No matter what you say...they are doing something write and we are doing it completely wrong.
 
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W2L

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Yeah imprisoning someone for breaking the law, followed with abusive guards...been in jail before seen that personally...physical and sexual abuse from other prisoners. Get out of jail and your not allowed to vote, no decent job wants you. I mean education, job training, learning how to manage your funds, counseling and seeing that they have a job and place when they get out...that is a horrible idea. Know the American way is better...punishment by imprisonment and physical and sexual abuse and then keep on punishing them when they get out...yeah that is working so well
The state shouldnt allow rape in prison. You cant lock someone up with rapists and allow them to be raped. Once you incarcerate someone you should be obligated to protect them.
 
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Robert6671

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The state shouldnt allow rape in prison. You cant lock someone up with rapists and allow them to be raped. Once you incarcerate someone you should be obligated to protect them.
And yet it happens...regularly. No one cares...the public, politicians, church's is very much aware of all the abuse that happens in jails and prisons...people do not care...in many peoples minds they broke the law and the deserve what they get. A stupid 17 year old who gets drunk and goes joy riding deserves to be punished. He does not deserve to be abused by guards which happens way to often. He does not deserve to be abused sexually or physically by inmates. You say it should not happen..but it does...because the great majority of America does not care about that part of society. It is what I like about Sweden Denmark and some other prisons do. They focus on rehabilitation...the first part is open or closed prison. You can chose, you can go to school, go to work, get your counseling, learn to be a meaningful member of society. Or you can be locked in a cell 23 hours a day. Being in prison is the punishment...everything else that happens is about retribution.
 
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W2L

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And yet it happens...regularly. No one cares...the public, politicians, church's is very much aware of all the abuse that happens in jails and prisons...people do not care...in many peoples minds they broke the law and the deserve what they get. A stupid 17 year old who gets drunk and goes joy riding deserves to be punished. He does not deserve to be abused by guards which happens way to often. He does not deserve to be abused sexually or physically by inmates. You say it should not happen..but it does...because the great majority of America does not care about that part of society. It is what I like about Sweden Denmark and some other prisons do. They focus on rehabilitation...the first part is open or closed prison. You can chose, you can go to school, go to work, get your counseling, learn to be a meaningful member of society. Or you can be locked in a cell 23 hours a day. Being in prison is the punishment...everything else that happens is about retribution.
People should care, its appalling
 
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Robert6671

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People should care, its appalling
Your right, being locked up and not free to sleep in your bed, hold your children, make live to your wife or husband. The Punishment is being in prison and along with being in prison, behavioral therapy, drug and alcohol treatment, schooling for gods sakes, learning to work a job. You put someone in prison you got to choices, teach them how to live in society or treat them like trash and abuse them and make them work, in many cases it is a kid or young adult who made a stupid sometimes horrible mistake, they go in a scared messed up kid and most of the time they come our hardened criminals.. The sad thing about this country, one that is supposedly predominantly Christian, is how we treat those who screw up and make a mistake, and how we treat those less fortunate than us...the homeless..the poor.
 
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thecolorsblend

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One reason I oppose this "rehabilitation" mindset is that prison is intended to be more or less the last stop of social correction. Family, friends, school, employers, etc, all apparently utterly failed in their task of teaching the felon right from wrong. So all that's left now is punishment.

The nature of prison is to punish. That's the whole point of it. This silly rehabilitation nonsense is literally everybody else's job except a prison guard's.
 
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Robert6671

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One reason I oppose this "rehabilitation" mindset is that prison is intended to be more or less the last stop of social correction. Family, friends, school, employers, etc, all apparently utterly failed in their task of teaching the felon right from wrong. So all that's left now is punishment.

The nature of prison is to punish. That's the whole point of it. This silly rehabilitation nonsense is literally everybody else's job except a prison guard's.

What the about the thousands that are innocent and just bad luck end up in prison. Or the person who is poor and is accused of a crime they did not do...nearly every one of them accept a deal...6 months a year or 5....its better 10-20...most are not willing to take the risk...and the ones who do generally lose. Most Juries go for guilty on alot of crimes...they have done interviews with some who basically say better to be safe than sorry. It is supposed to be beyond all reasonable doubt..but its not. As for the guilty...many of the guilty start out young...make a stupid mistake...and are forced to pay for it for the rest of their life. If your born in the inner city and you are poor, you do what you have to do to survive. Education for inner cities and the poor is a joke, job opportunities there are for joke. Many 12 or 13 join a gang for safety and food. There families do not have enough food or money for clothing...people like you...self-righteous, judgmental have the attitude of not my problem or the deserve it. Many times the criminal is not beyond redemption. There were two criminals on the cross with Jesus...one of them insulted Jesus the other did not ask forgiveness or to be saved...all he asked was for Jesus to remember him. Jesus saved him right there. I am not talking about series Killers or pedophiles. I am talking about the kid on the streets stealing and dealing drugs to feed and cloth himself. I am talking about the kid who screwed up...I did I did time, I made a deal...I did a little bit of time and I saw how brutal and screwed up the jails were. For the first time in my life I thanked god I was disabled. I was in a wing by myself, not many disabled people in jail. But I saw what was going on. People like you think a kid who lived in poverty deserves to be treated the same way we would treat a pedophile or serial Killer. You do not differentiate beaten the screw up and the hardened criminal. And being beaten guards and inmates and being raped by inmates is not punishment its torture
 
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Robert6671

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The family of one who has been murdered in cold-blood may wish for Revenge.

Revenge may not be that healthy of a thing but, can we blame them?

M-Bob

Bob...can you differentiate a murderer or a pedophile vs the person who did not do a violent crime but just screwed up.
 
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thecolorsblend

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What the about the thousands that are innocent and just bad luck end up in prison
I apologize, somehow I got the idea that this thread was about prison reform rather than the hypothetical prospect of innocent people ending up in the gray bar hotel.

Nah, jk. Let's try to stay on the subject here, eh?
 
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Robert6671

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I apologize, somehow I got the idea that this thread was about prison reform rather than the hypothetical prospect of innocent people ending up in the gray bar hotel.

Nah, jk. Let's try to stay on the subject here, eh?

Sure, the subject is not about reform for pedophiles, serial killers and those who are beyond redemption. It is about reform for those who are not beyond redemption and for the ones who are innocent and slipped between the cracks. You take a innocent person and give them the savagery that is prison and many times when they come out what the were not when they went in...a criminal. You take the person who screwed up and could still be saved and when they come again they come out a criminal. Prison is a school for the criminal. It takes those who could be save and makes them unsavable. Not always there are exceptions to any rule but for the majority of people who go into prison do not come out a better person....and they should. Prison should be about making sure a person does not want to come back and has the tools to make sure they do not.
 
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DanishLutheran

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People should care, its appalling

Unless it happens to pedophiles. In that case, the proper response is this:
Behold the field in which I grow my fiddlesticks. Lay thine eyes upon it, and thou shalt see that it is barren.
 
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