Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

JacksBratt said:

So... salvation is progressive?

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bcbsr said:

Realize that you're describing salvation by works...

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bcbsr said:

..."No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

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Jason0047 said:

The question is a loaded question because it attempts ask a question based on something that is not true. That would be like asking,

"Do you like green cats that breath fire or the purple cats that fly?"​

Your question assumes two things which are not biblically correct. You assume it is one or the other alone when both are true.

Also, guilt by association is not always true. Just because the Catholics believe in the Trinity, does not mean that the Trinity is not true. So you cannot point to a church as the basis for your belief. Our belief must be derived from what the Bible says and not by looking at others.

Salvation is both a free gift by believing in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (and believing in His death and resurrection) by faith ("Justification"), and Salvation is also contingent upon obeying God's commands ("Sanctification" - which always comes after Justification). 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God has chosen us to salvation through:

#1. Belief of the truth (Jesus is the truth - John 14:6).
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit (Holy living - 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

"...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

The Bible says we are saved by God's grace through faith and it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).
But this is the entrance gate. This is where we first become saved. For gifts are received one time. This is the Justification Process that is not of works. This is where salvation starts and it is the foundation of our faith and salvation. But that does not mean there is not another process as a part of salvation (after we are saved by God's grace).

In Romans 8:13, Pauls says,

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Now, if Belief Alone-ism was true, then this verse should not exist in our Bibles. But it does. For it is saying that if you live one way (i.e. you live after the "flesh"; Note: the word "flesh" is in reference o sin, see: - Galatians 5:19-21) you are going to die (die spiritually). If you live another way (i.e. you put to death the deeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live spiritually) (Note: "Deeds" can refer to sinful actions, see: - Jude 1:15).

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setst777 said:

Hi BCBSR

You write
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In contrast to your position
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Setst RE: I didn’t give my position; rather, I quoted the Scriptures that clearly presents its own position. You want to try and prove those Scriptures wrong by quoting other Scriptures you feel are saying just the opposite.

You write:
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"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Notice that Jesus speaks of a person's salvation status as being finalized just as if they had already passed from death to life. They have eternal life.
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Setst RE: Notice Jesus said, whoever hears my word and believes. Both actions are ongoing hearing and believing. Jesus did not say whoever believed at one point, or whoever once heard what I said; but rather, whoever hears (continues hearing) and believes (ongoing belief).

You are saved at the moment you express a true Bible Faith in Christ. If you were to die shortly after believing, you would be saved. If you continued to live, then that true faith would be demonstrated in a life of following Christ Jesus – to deny self and take up your cross and follow him just as Lord Jesus said, if you were listening to Jesus who clearly taught this all through His ministry. We follow Him by walking in His Spirit who indwells us by faith, as Scripture states. And by walking in the Spirit, we live out a life of Love.

We must be faithful to the end to be eternally saved just as Scripture states – whether that is moments after one believes and is killed, or 70 years later.

You write:
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Rom 8:1,2 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."
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Setst RE: The condition for not being condemned is to be IN Christ Jesus. We are IN Christ Jesus when we believe: “whosoever believes.”

Christ is only IN us by His Spirit who indwells us and gives us life:

Romans 8:9 But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

We only receive the Spirit that regenerates us through an obedient and repentant faith…

Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23; Acts 2:38

Acts 5:32
32 And we are witnesses [a]of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

John 14:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 14:23 (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 7:37-39 (NIV)
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

You write:
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"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9
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Setst RE:
We are not saved by works, but by faith. Faith is not a work. A genuine Bible faith includes repentance from all sin, and then to follow Christ. That is what faith is. You want to make faith an empty shell of no value, thus making faith a license for sin. That is not how Scripture defines faith. I quoted many Scriptures to show this to be true - many were quotes direct from Lord Jesus.

You write:
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1John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." Again indicating eternal life is something they already have.
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Setst RE: We can know we have eternal life if we believe (a continuous faith).

You write:
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And while Salvation-by-Works Christians view salvation
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Setst RE: Invalid argument. We are saved by grace through faith. You want to avoid all those Scriptures explaining and teaching, and by parable and example, what a Gospel Faith really means to be receive eternal life. Don’t fool yourself out of salvation. Thankfully you are not fooling those who really believe. However, you are responsible for all those weak in the faith who are being mislead into destruction.

You write:
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Take you're reference to Gal 6:7-9… John 4:35-36.
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Setst RE: You are comparing two unrelated Passages as anyone reading them can see. If you can’t see the clear difference in topic, than no explanation can help you. This is 3rd grade English.

You write:
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Or 1 Corinthians 9:26-27 "Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." Disqualified for rewards for services rendered, not loss of salvation. (See 1Cor 3:11-15)

1Tim 4:16 "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers" Saves himself from the pollutions of the world and from false doctrines which he previously spoke of in the same chapter. This as opposed to the view of that he was talking about gaining eternal life by his own effort. Timothy was already saved and had eternal life through faith.
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Setst RE: You go ahead believing that if you want. The Scriptures speak for themselves just as they are written, without re-interpretation.

The Scriptures teach throughout that if you do not remain in the correct doctrine, your faith is in vain and you have fallen from the faith. If you succumb again to the pollutions of this world after being saved, then there is no more grace for such persons, but only fear of judgment. The Scriptures are clear throughout.

You write:
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You claim that it is OUR responsibility to fulfill the requirements of the whole law, referencing Rom 8:3,4 which speaks of the law of Moses.
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Setst RE: You lack any Spiritual discernment. When we live by the Spirit of God we fulfill the requirements of the whole Law.

Romans 13:8-9 (WEB) Bolding mine.
8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love doesn’t harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 8:3 (WEB)
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:1-14 (WEB)
1 Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don’t be entangled again with a yoke of bondage…
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision amounts to anything, nor uncircumcision, but what counts is faith working through love…
14 For the Whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

You write:
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As for you spin on the "Rest" of Heb 4 only referring to the future, it says, "those to whom it was first preached did not enter" Gal 4:6b clearly using the past tense. And again in verse 10 "the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His." "has entered" is past tense.
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Setst RE: You have to read the context. The Jews were disobedient, and so were not able to enter the physical rest (the Promised Land) for over 400 years. And even then they were disobedient. For those today of faith, the focus is on God’s Spiritual resting place – the heavenly calling.

Hebrews 4:7-11
7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and embraced them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 If indeed they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had enough time to return. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Revelation 14:13 (NASB)
13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

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Hammster said:

It is, until you realize that he takes parts verses out of context and mashes them with other parts of verses. Then it all falls apart.

But don’t take my word for it. Just examine his post more carefully.

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Hammster said:

Both are needed, but both will be present.

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bcbsr said:

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

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Hammster said:

Let me know if you can 18 people who actually believe this. Quotes would be good.

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James Murphy said:

I asked this earlier and never got an answer, so maybe you can answer it: When did the notion creep in that Christians, not unbelievers but Christians, will only obey Christ's commands if they're under the threat of eternal damnation?

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JacksBratt said:

I beg to differ. Salvation is free. That's the whole point.. There is nothing a human can do that aids in paying the dept of their sin.

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And...He loves us so much and desires to spend eternity with us so greatly that all we have to do is believe in Him.

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