Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

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GodsGrace101

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I agree with the rewrite of your questions..

However, I do not believe that you can lose your salvation... if you were truly repentant.. and believe in Christ... you are saved... even if life or circumstances drag you back and you are struggling... or totally off track... The bible teaches that only God knows someones heart.

Some people, who are believers... and still believe, are not doing what other Christians would expect... but it's not what other Christians expect that determines salvation, is it?

In the end.... how can I do something to lose something that I did nothing to obtain.

I don't know of any free gift that I have ever been given that requires me to then keep doing something in order to keep it.
Agreed on the first 3 paragraphs.
Regarding becoming lost....
I don't believe it's easy to leave God once we know Him...

But what would you say about apastocy?
Is it impossible? There are many scriptures that say it is possible. The ones that refer to our falling away...

For some that may not know:


apostasy
/əˈpɒstəsi/

noun
  1. the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief or principle.
    "the execution of their leader for apostasy brought widespread criticism"
    sinonimi: renunciation of belief, abandonment of belief, recantation;
 
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GodsGrace101

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Where does it say that in scripture?
Try Mathew 7:24-27
It's all about losing a house.

The Two Foundations

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
 
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GodsGrace101

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He's trying to wiggle out by comparing apples to oranges.

He's trying to compare building the ark as being equal to what we must do inorder to maintain salvation...when the ark is an OT type of Christ.
Who's wiggling???
Noah HAD TO BUILD the ark in order to be saved.

Jesus might be the Ark in the N.T....
alas, even in the N.T. God desires obedience.

Noah, the obedient one, was saved.
The ones that chided him, were not.
 
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Hammster

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The point being overlooked is that Noah had to first be obedient in building the boat in order for his house to be saved. Obedience BEFORE salvation. NOT salvation (house saved from the flood) BEFORE obedience (building the boat).

Look at the order of Romans 6:17-18
1) were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified

Again, just as with Noah, obedience BEFORE salvation/justification.
You ignored this part.

But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. - Genesis 6:8
 
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Hammster

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The only problem here is that faith onlyism does not want to see that obedience was first necessary in order to then receive grace.
But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. - Genesis 6:8

Grace first.
 
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Hammster

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Try Mathew 7:24-27
It's all about losing a house.

The Two Foundations

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
That has nothing to do with his statement and my question.
 
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Hammster

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Who's wiggling???
Noah HAD TO BUILD the ark in order to be saved.

Jesus might be the Ark in the N.T....
alas, even in the N.T. God desires obedience.

Noah, the obedient one, was saved.
The ones that chided him, were not.
Why are you assuming that’s the only way he could be saved?
 
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Acts2:38

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I don't quite see it that way. The verse simply says I will not blot out...What the verse doesn't say, and it is also what you assume it says ...if you DON'T overcome, I WILL blot out your name.

I'm sorry you don't see that yet.

The law of exclusion is a pretty simple concept. One could explain it as easily as so:

"If you do your homework, I will give you a cookie"

Does the person stating this comment really have to add in the consequence of not doing so?

No. By stating, "If you do your homework, I will give you a cookie", you automatically imply, WITHOUT physically saying, that "if you do NOT do your homework, you will NOT receive a cookie".
It's automatic. The was no need to say the consequence because you excluded every other option of getting a cookie except by DOING your homework.

We use exclusion all the time. So does scripture.

Take the Lords Supper for example.

1- Unleavened Bread
2- Fruit of the vine

By stating ONLY in scripture that we are to "eat this bread (unleavened bread), and drink this cup (fruit of the vine), Christ automatically excluded every other choice you have.

So with that, is soda okay to use for the cup?

How about steak for the bread?

The answer is quite obvious no for both. Why? Because you are only authorized to use unleavened bread and fruit of the vine (referring to grape juice). You are not authorized for any other method.

So, it is quite obvious that when Christ tells that church,
"He that overcometh...I will not blot out his name in the book of life, and I will confess him before the Father..."

It tells the reader that if a person DOESN'T overcome, he will have his name blotted out and he will not be confessed before the Father.

But overcoming is bigger than that, or, can be seen in a different light. The 7 churches you mentioned instructed them on how to overcome. the overcoming isn't an overcoming to salvation but rather to "rewards".

I agree that Christ is instructing them on how to overcome. The part you missing, is when Christ says "I know your works and labor, BUT THESE THINGS I HAVE AGAINST YOU."

What will happen if they do NOT correct those things Christ has against them?

Whats your answer?
 
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Albion

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If you agree that we should pursue the lifestyle Jesus taught...then it IS linked to salvation/sanctification.
Not necessarily. What is right to do is simply right. Any rewards are another matter..

What happens if we are not pursuing that lifestyle?
As James argued in his Epistle, we can pretty well guess that such people do not have saving Faith. So what is the eternal consequence of not having Faith in Christ?
 
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bcbsr

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Not necessarily. What is right to do is simply right. Any rewards are another matter..
I agree with you on both points. To do the right thing, not in order to be saved, but simply because it's the right thing to do is a concept many here haven't apparently embraced.
As James argued in his Epistle, we can pretty well guess that such people do not have saving Faith. So what is the eternal consequence of not having Faith in Christ?
Yep, again performance is not a cause but an indicator of saving faith

"This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." 1John 3:10
 
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JacksBratt

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The point being overlooked is that Noah had to first be obedient in building the boat in order for his house to be saved. Obedience BEFORE salvation. NOT salvation (house saved from the flood) BEFORE obedience (building the boat).

Look at the order of Romans 6:17-18
1) were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified

Again, just as with Noah, obedience BEFORE salvation/justification.
Again, that was before the work on the cross.

Do you not believe that we are saved by the work of Christ?
If we are saved by the work of Christ... what work is left to do?
 
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Danthemailman

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You ignored this part.

But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. - Genesis 6:8
Grace first.
Amen! Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark.

Building the ark was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)
 
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JacksBratt

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The only problem here is that faith onlyism does not want to see that obedience was first necessary in order to then receive grace.
The only obedience necessary, after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.. is obeying this:

Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ... and you shall be saved.

Satan comes along and adds... "oh ya.. and make sure you keep working to keep it"...
 
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fhansen

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I agree with all.
I DO believe we can know if we are saved right NOW...but in the sense that we cannot know if we will be at our death---then I also agree with this.

We can know we are saved if we follow Jesus, as you stated,,,and as long as we're at His feet.

Yes. I like your post....it would seem so simple, and yet....there are some that will not understand.
I agree. If our fruits demonstrate our own sonship, best shown by our love perhaps, then there's very little reason to doubt one's saved status. In any case, we're the wildcard in it all while He's trustworthy and true to a "T". :)
 
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JacksBratt

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Agreed on the first 3 paragraphs.
Regarding becoming lost....
I don't believe it's easy to leave God once we know Him...

But what would you say about apastocy?
Is it impossible? There are many scriptures that say it is possible. The ones that refer to our falling away...

For some that may not know:


apostasy
/əˈpɒstəsi/

noun
  1. the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief or principle.
    "the execution of their leader for apostasy brought widespread criticism"
    sinonimi: renunciation of belief, abandonment of belief, recantation;
This falling away is not by the saved...

The falling away is for the church, what they preach and the numbers of people that reject Christ.
Just look at the US... getting rid of prayer in schools, making people take down large emblems of the cross... No lords prayer... Christianity was losing ground big time until Trump came along and started to speak out for Christian values......and stated that Pence would be his sounding board..

Pence is a very solid Christian..

When Trumps time in office ends.... the US will again speed down the road away from Christian values and this "falling away" will be it's doom.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

The question is a loaded question because it attempts ask a question based on something that is not true. That would be like asking,

"Do you like green cats that breath fire or the purple cats that fly?"

Your question assumes two things which are not biblically correct. You assume it is one or the other alone when both are true.

Also, guilt by association is not always true. Just because the Catholics believe in the Trinity, does not mean that the Trinity is not true. So you cannot point to a church as the basis for your belief. Our belief must be derived from what the Bible says and not by looking at others.

Salvation is both a free gift by believing in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (and believing in His death and resurrection) by faith ("Justification"), and Salvation is also contingent upon obeying God's commands ("Sanctification" - which always comes after Justification). 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God has chosen us to salvation through:

#1. Belief of the truth (Jesus is the truth - John 14:6).
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit (Holy living - 1 Thessalonians 4:3).

"...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

The Bible says we are saved by God's grace through faith and it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8).
But this is the entrance gate. This is where we first become saved. For gifts are received one time. This is the Justification Process that is not of works. This is where salvation starts and it is the foundation of our faith and salvation. But that does not mean there is not another process as a part of salvation (after we are saved by God's grace).

In Romans 8:13, Pauls says,

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Now, if Belief Alone-ism was true, then this verse should not exist in our Bibles. But it does. For it is saying that if you live one way (i.e. you live after the "flesh"; Note: the word "flesh" is in reference o sin, see: - Galatians 5:19-21) you are going to die (die spiritually). If you live another way (i.e. you put to death the deeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live spiritually) (Note: "Deeds" can refer to sinful actions, see: - Jude 1:15).
 
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jerry kelso

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The only obedience necessary, after the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.. is obeying this:

Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ... and you shall be saved.

Satan comes along and adds... "oh ya.. and make sure you keep working to keep it"...

jacksbratt,

1. Justification by works James 2:14-26.
Justication by grace Romans 4:1-8
These are two different contexts but both are associated with salvation.

2. Romans 10:9-10 obedience human responsibility or not.
If one understands these contexts properly they can understand the proper relation of grace and works in salvation. Jerry kelso
 
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setst777

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In contrast to your position

Hi BCBSR

You write
<<
In contrast to your position
>>

Setst RE: I didn’t give my position; rather, I quoted the Scriptures that clearly presents its own position. You want to try and prove those Scriptures wrong by quoting other Scriptures you feel are saying just the opposite.

You write:
<<
"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Notice that Jesus speaks of a person's salvation status as being finalized just as if they had already passed from death to life. They have eternal life.
>>

Setst RE: Notice Jesus said, whoever hears my word and believes. Both actions are ongoing hearing and believing. Jesus did not say whoever believed at one point, or whoever once heard what I said; but rather, whoever hears (continues hearing) and believes (ongoing belief).

You are saved at the moment you express a true Bible Faith in Christ. If you were to die shortly after believing, you would be saved. If you continued to live, then that true faith would be demonstrated in a life of following Christ Jesus – to deny self and take up your cross and follow him just as Lord Jesus said, if you were listening to Jesus who clearly taught this all through His ministry. We follow Him by walking in His Spirit who indwells us by faith, as Scripture states. And by walking in the Spirit, we live out a life of Love.

We must be faithful to the end to be eternally saved just as Scripture states – whether that is moments after one believes and is killed, or 70 years later.

You write:
<<
Rom 8:1,2 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."
<<

Setst RE: The condition for not being condemned is to be IN Christ Jesus. We are IN Christ Jesus when we believe: “whosoever believes.”

Christ is only IN us by His Spirit who indwells us and gives us life:

Romans 8:9 But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

We only receive the Spirit that regenerates us through an obedient and repentant faith

Acts 5:32; Galatians 3:2; John 7:37-39; John 14:15-17; John 14:23; Acts 2:38

Acts 5:32
32
And we are witnesses [a]of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him.”

John 14:15-17 (NIV)
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

John 14:23 (NIV)
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John 7:37-39 (NIV)
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.” 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive.

You write:
<<
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." Eph 2:8,9
>>

Setst RE:
We are not saved by works, but by faith. Faith is not a work. A genuine Bible faith includes repentance from all sin, and then to follow Christ. That is what faith is. You want to make faith an empty shell of no value, thus making faith a license for sin. That is not how Scripture defines faith. I quoted many Scriptures to show this to be true - many were quotes direct from Lord Jesus.

You write:
<<
1John 5:13 "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." Again indicating eternal life is something they already have.
>>

Setst RE: We can know we have eternal life if we believe (a continuous faith).

You write:
<<
And while Salvation-by-Works Christians view salvation
>>

Setst RE: Invalid argument. We are saved by grace through faith. You want to avoid all those Scriptures explaining and teaching, and by parable and example, what a Gospel Faith really means to be receive eternal life. Don’t fool yourself out of salvation. Thankfully you are not fooling those who really believe. However, you are responsible for all those weak in the faith who are being mislead into destruction.

You write:
<<
Take you're reference to Gal 6:7-9… John 4:35-36.
>>

Setst RE: You are comparing two unrelated Passages as anyone reading them can see. If you can’t see the clear difference in topic, than no explanation can help you. This is 3rd grade English.

You write:
<<
Or 1 Corinthians 9:26-27 "Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." Disqualified for rewards for services rendered, not loss of salvation. (See 1Cor 3:11-15)

1Tim 4:16 "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers" Saves himself from the pollutions of the world and from false doctrines which he previously spoke of in the same chapter. This as opposed to the view of that he was talking about gaining eternal life by his own effort. Timothy was already saved and had eternal life through faith.
>>


Setst RE: You go ahead believing that if you want. The Scriptures speak for themselves just as they are written, without re-interpretation.

The Scriptures teach throughout that if you do not remain in the correct doctrine, your faith is in vain and you have fallen from the faith. If you succumb again to the pollutions of this world after being saved, then there is no more grace for such persons, but only fear of judgment. The Scriptures are clear throughout.

You write:
<<
You claim that it is OUR responsibility to fulfill the requirements of the whole law, referencing Rom 8:3,4 which speaks of the law of Moses.
>>

Setst RE: You lack any Spiritual discernment. When we live by the Spirit of God we fulfill the requirements of the whole Law.

Romans 13:8-9 (WEB) Bolding mine.
8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love doesn’t harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.

Romans 8:3 (WEB)
3 For what the law couldn’t do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh; 4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 5:1-14 (WEB)
1 Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don’t be entangled again with a yoke of bondage
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision amounts to anything, nor uncircumcision, but what counts is faith working through love…
14 For the Whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

You write:
<<
As for you spin on the "Rest" of Heb 4 only referring to the future, it says, "those to whom it was first preached did not enter" Gal 4:6b clearly using the past tense. And again in verse 10 "the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His." "has entered" is past tense.
>>

Setst RE: You have to read the context. The Jews were disobedient, and so were not able to enter the physical rest (the Promised Land) for over 400 years. And even then they were disobedient. For those today of faith, the focus is on God’s Spiritual resting place – the heavenly calling.

Hebrews 4:7-11
7 God again set a certain day, calling it “Today.” This he did when a long time later he spoke through David, as in the passage already quoted:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and embraced them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15 If indeed they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had enough time to return. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Revelation 14:13 (NASB)
13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”
 
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