JosephZ
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- Mar 25, 2017
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Historical context means everything. Qur'an 9:5 deals with a specific situation concerning Meccan pagans breaking their peace treaties and declaring war on the Muslims. That verse is not meant to apply to all non-Muslims and it applied to a set point in time. It's not in any way applicable to Muslims today.The 3400++ verses of antagonistic and hatred loaded on non-Muslims is so obvious and thus will influence Muslims to follow their God in hating non-Muslims [a pool of 320 million is likely to do so].
Thus some % will be influenced to kill non-Muslims via 9:5 and other verses with evil and violent motives.
OK.Note Christians may twist the words of God and Jesus in the Gospels, but that has nothing to do with Christianity because Christianity has protected itself from blame with the overriding pacifist maxim of 'love all - even enemies'.
It's the opposite actually. When you have an understanding of the historical context in which a verse of scripture is written, it makes it's intent clear and concise.When you bring the historical context, then it become very subjective, contentious and flimsy.
What I meant is the Quran is perfected by Allah as claimed in 5:3.
Qur'an 5:3 has absolutely nothing at all to do with the Qur'an. That verse is about the religion of Islam and mentions how it has become perfected for the Muslims.Nope, 5:3 is not the final revelation. It is just a report and in any case the Allah already had the perfected religion beside his 'throne'.
The significance of 5:3 is that the Quran is perfected by God thus cannot be changed by believers and humans.
"Today, those who disbelieve have despaired of your religion, so do not fear them, but fear Me. Today I have perfected your religion for you, and have completed My favor upon you, and have approved Islam as a religion for you."
What is your source for this?Nope, 5:3 is not the final revelation. It is just a report and in any case the Allah already had the perfected religion beside his 'throne'.
ISIS is a terrorist group.Note the quote I referred directly from IS which claimed they killed non-Muslims because they are disbelievers as the primary reason, and the others, e.g. political interference and occupation are secondary reasons.
Who are you to say that the terrorists are right with their interpretation?Note again, WHO ARE YOU, me or anyone who can judge their interpretation is wrong?
He's been researching this subject since before you were born. I'm pretty sure he would have caught it by now.Bale agreed Islamism is a part and parcel of Islam but he is unable to find the direct correlation like what I did because he missed out on the critical human factors.
I didn't say you were.I am not legitimizing extremists' acts of violence.
Whether you realize it or not, you are legitimizing extremists and their perverted teachings by equating extremism with the religion of Islam.
I'm giving you educated responses based on more than three decades of studying the religion of Islam from various schools of thought off and on during that time period, close to a decade of my life living among Muslims in different parts of the world, and from several years of study on the subjects of violent extremism and terrorism. I can assure you that your strategy of legitimizing the perverted teachings of Islamic extremists and terrorists is counter productive in the fight against violent extremism.My strategy of highlighting the existing of evil and violent elements in the Quran which are immutable and their exposure to a pool of 20% or 320 million evil prone Muslims is very factual and truthful.
You on the other hand is toying with lies and guess works.
The vast majority of Muslims know how to read the Qur'an properly and know to put things into textual and historical context. Evidence of this can be found all around the world as better than 99% of the world's Muslims are living in peace and harmony with their neighbors.Humanity can try to suppress the evil and violent elements in the Quran but it will not work and had not worked since the attempts from 1400 years ago by various reformists who are humans thus cannot override Allah's words which is biddah and the worst sin.
This, along with what you said in the other thread (See below), is one of the worst things I have ever read on an online forum.Thus the long term solution [at least theoretical at present] is to suppress [or get rid] the ideology of Islam, and no one on Earth will be able to refer to rely on the words of a God to justify their evil and violent acts when driven by the impulse for salvation. So what follows from this elimination is Muslims can convert to Christianity or other pacifist religions to deal with the inherent existential crisis.
What China is doing is resorting to the most optimal strategy to deal with the inherent potential of evil and violence from any Muslim community...
First off, violence committed in the name of Christianity has had a far bloodier history than that carried out in the name of Islam over the past 1,400 years. Secondly, your suggestion of eradicating Islam (A religion that close to 1/4th of the world's population peacefully follows) and supporting rounding up and putting Muslims in concentration camps like what is currently being done in China would be disastrous for both Muslim and non-Muslim citizens and virtually every country in the world if it were ever tried.Rather, your pussi-footing around the issue and placating will ensure Muslims from the pool of the 20% or 320 million of evil prone will continue to wreck evil and violence upon non-Muslims and others based on their sincere interpretation of Allah's words in the Quran just like what was going on since 1400 years ago.
I have already countered this and you didn't accept my response.Re the friendly verses;
Your excuses for 3:118-119, 60:8-9 are very flimsy and they are conditional and contextual to certain conditions.
Note the other 20+ verses I highlighted where Allah do not permit Muslims to befriend non-Muslims even their father, bethrens and kin. What are your counter to this?
You didn't counter them all, here they are again.As for verse 3:52, 41:34 and others, I have already countered them that they are ineffective to support your points and claims that Islam is inherently peaceful. Relying on 3:52 is really a sham where there is room to kill non-Muslims if they commit corruption [fasadin] thus a threat, where even cartoons will warrant killing of non-Muslims.
Islam has very similar teachings to Christianity on responding to evil and showing kindness and love towards others. This is why better than 99% of Muslims live in peace and harmony with their non-Muslim neighbors. Below are a few examples from various Islamic sources:
Good and evil are not equal. Repel evil with good, and the person who was your enemy becomes like an intimate friend. (Qur'an 41:34)
And those who patiently seek the presence of their Lord, and pray regularly, and spend from Our provisions to them, secretly and openly, and repel evil with good. These will have the Ultimate Home. (Qur'an 13:22)
Repel evil by what is better. We are aware of what they describe. And say, “My Lord, I seek refuge with You from the urgings of the devils. And I seek refuge with You, my Lord, lest they become present.” (Qur'an 23:96-98)
He told Jesus, “I will save you from your enemies, raise you to Myself, keep you clean from the association with the disbelievers, and give superiority to your followers over the unbelievers until the Day of Judgment. On that day you will all return to Me and I shall resolve your dispute.” (Qur'an 3:55
Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel: that whoever kills a person—unless it is for murder or corruption on earth—it is as if he killed the whole of mankind; and whoever saves it, it is as if he saved the whole of mankind. (Qur'an 5:32)
It is by of grace from God that you were gentle with them [Non-Muslims]. Had you been harsh, hardhearted, they would have dispersed from around you. So pardon them, and ask forgiveness for them, and consult them in the conduct of affairs. And when you make a decision, put your trust in God; (Qur'an 3:159)
The below comes directly from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying : Verily, Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, would say on the Day of Resurrection: O son of Adam, I was sick but you did not visit Me. He would say: O my Lord; how could I visit Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds? Thereupon He would say: Didn't you know that such and such servant of Mine was sick but you did not visit him and were you not aware of this that if you had visited him, you would have found Me by him? O son of Adam, I asked food from you but you did not feed Me. He would say: My Lord, how could I feed Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds? He said: Didn't you know that such and such servant of Mine asked food from you but you did not feed him, and were you not aware that if you had fed him you would have found him by My side? (The Lord would again say O son of Adam, I asked drink from you but you did not provide Me. He would say: My Lord, how could I provide Thee whereas Thou art the Lord of the worlds? Thereupon He would say: Such and such of servant of Mine asked you for a drink but you did not provide him, and had you provided him drink you would have found him near Me. (Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6232)
Some other examples:
Be devout and you will be the most pious of people. Be content and you will be the most grateful of people. Love for people what you love for yourself and you will be a believer. Behave well with your neighbors and you will be a Muslim. (Sunan Ibn Ma¯jah 4217)
O son of Adam, be disinterested in what people own and they will love you. Be content with what God has apportioned for you and you will be the richest of people. Love for people what you love for yourself and you will be a believer. Do not harm your neighbour and you will be a Muslim. (Ibn ’Askir, Tarikh Madinat Dimashq 47:439)
None of you has faith until he loves for his brother or his neighbor what he loves for himself. (Sahih Muslim, Book 1, Number 72)
Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away. (Surah al-Nisa 4:36)
A commentary on the above verse:
I say based upon this verse, kind treatment of neighbors is enjoined and is recommended, whether they are Muslim or an unbeliever, and this is the right thing to do. Kind treatment may be in the sense of helping or it may be in the sense of being kind, refraining from harm, and supporting them. (Tafsi¯r al-Qurt?ubi¯ 4:36)
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