LDS Mormon Jesus Versus Christian Jesus

He is the way said:

CROSS Worship – Cross Church

The Cross Worship Center

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Do they actually worship the cross--or is that just their name? Sounds like it's just their name.

He is the way said:

CROSS Worship – Cross Church

The Cross Worship Center

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Hahahahaha.

From their "About" page (capitalization as at original):


Hmm...nothing about worshiping the cross there. Maybe I just haven't read far enough...

WE ARE
CROSS CULTURAL
We desire to reach people from different cultures, ethnicities, and languages.We are commited to cross borders and breaking all barriers in order to reach every tribe, tongue, and nation with the life changing message of Jesus Christ.

WE ARE
CROSS GENERATIONAL
We have a vision to reach people of all ages and stages of life. All life is precious to God and we believe that you are never too young or too old to pursue your calling and fulfill your destiny. We offer ministry to the entire family because we desire to see every generation fulfill their divine purpose and reach their God-given potential.

WE ARE
CROSS DENOMINATIONAL
We have a mindset to reach people from all denominations or no denomination at all. We desire to reach across denominational lines and unite the Body of Christ around the world. We are a church who embraces people of any background with the objective of producing strong, mature Christ followers.

...

Y'know, I think @mmksparbud just might be on to something! The use of "cross" in their name and actual worship of the cross just might be two completely unrelated things.

dzheremi said:

Y'know, I think @mmksparbud just might be on to something! The use of "cross" in their name and actual worship of the cross just might be two completely unrelated things.

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Are you suggesting that it was another case of word search and paste without context?? Shocking!

It truly is shocking, yes. That the word "cross" can mean not only the cross, but also that this same word can be used to form parts of compound words/phrases like "cross-denominational" (hadn't heard that one before, myself) and "cross-cultural", and that a ministry might actually be aware of that fact and use it as a way to emphasize how they intend to embody all of those things so as to bring people to the new life in Christ which is accomplished through the cross.

But I mean...look at that...even that ^ simple explanation is, like, an entire paragraph of reading, which, come on...that's a bit much, don't you think? Especially since he found "Cross" right next to "worship" like that, which is as close to being a silver bullet as you can ever expect to find when searching for individual words or combinations of words.

Seriously. I doubt he'll do better than that, since that's literally as close as they can be to one another, so bam..."Cross worship" obviously means "Christians worshiping two intersecting pieces of wood". What else could it possibly mea--

Oh. Oh, wait. All that stuff on the very same organization's "About" page. Right. See, having to read and then remember things is too hard!

dzheremi said:

You mean like just how anyone can sell a cross or a picture of the Virgin Mary out of a vending machine for fifty cents, like in ironhold's example?

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In 2003 I was in Europe visiting friends, took a train and spent a weekend in Rome. Sunday I decided to visit Vatican City, got to St. Peter's Square where hundreds of thousands of people had gathered for what I guess was an open-air Mass led by Pope John Paul II (I had intended to just visit in hopes of maybe seeing St. Peter's Basilica). The whole of the experience was enthralling, seeing monastics, clergy, and laity from all over the world gathered in one place.

The whole experience became kind of a let down when a guy with a moving cart came by to peddle religious merchandise. Yes, I did buy a pope snow globe, the pope-in-a-globe was one of my favorite silly things I brought back home with me.

Anyone can sell anything.

-CryptoLutheran

I would totally buy a Pope snow globe. Putting food on that guy's table (the peddler, not the Pope) and having a very interesting conversation piece, for what I assume was a reasonable price? That's a win-win in my book. It's not like people who haven't been to Vatican City have those (I'm guessing). And come on..."Oh, that? That's my Pope snow globe." That's like the Nobel Prize of silly religious items.

I purchased a beautiful alabaster replica of the Pieta when I was in Italy (Rome?). I don't remember which town/city I was in when I bought it. When I was a Mormon I tossed it. Of course, I later regretted that. And my first Christmas as a newlywed, I bought a nativity set. I got rid of the angel because it had wings.

That's such a bummer about the tossed Pieta. Reminds me of when my father joined the Iglesia Ni Cristo (Philippine LDS knock-off cult) so that he could marry this lady who was a part of it, and I found a crucifix that he had kept in his bedroom up until that point (despite never having been practicing, he was technically baptized and raised Catholic; it wasn't hung up, it was on a dresser in his walk-in closet, but at least it was outside!) at the bottom of a trash bin in his garage, covered in cigarette ash and coffee grounds and other garbage. I tried to reach in and grab it, but the physics of me vs. gravity vs. that very large and heavy trash can said no, unless I wanted to live in it the rest of my life like Oscar the Grouch. Nearly made me cry, and by that point I wasn't even Catholic. I don't care...that's a representation of Christ's glorious defeat of death and His holy and perfect sacrifice for us, and you have thrown it away and covered it with garbage! He wasn't around at the time, and when I tried to bring it up to him later, the INC people had so warped his mind by that point (and he had only been to like half a dozen of their meetings!) that he just yelled at me and told me to shut up because I didn't know what I was talking about.

His marriage to the woman lasted about a year, and his interest in this 'church' left as soon as she was deported back to the Philippines (long story). Funny, isn't that? And now he is living in another state, attending some kind of non-denominational church (I guess) together with his elderly neighbor Leonard every Sunday. Good. All things come together for the glory of God, if we are not so stubborn as to continue in our ways after other goals/gods.

dzheremi said:

I would totally buy a Pope snow globe. Putting food on that guy's table (the peddler, not the Pope) and having a very interesting conversation piece, for what I assume was a reasonable price? That's a win-win in my book. It's not like people who haven't been to Vatican City have those (I'm guessing). And come on..."Oh, that? That's my Pope snow globe." That's like the Nobel Prize of silly religious items.

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I loved the thing, it was silly. Plus "pope-in-a-globe" is inherently fun to say. I don't recall the price, but I doubt it was too much.

-CryptoLutheran

Phoebe Ann said:

I purchased a beautiful alabaster replica of the Pieta when I was in Italy (Rome?). I don't remember which town/city I was in when I bought it. When I was a Mormon I tossed it. Of course, I later regretted that. And my first Christmas as a newlywed, I bought a nativity set. I got rid of the angel because it had wings.

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Nothing in LDS theology that would have required you to throw those away.

Phoebe Ann said:

I'm waiting for Peter1000 to reveal the denominations that he claims worship the cross.

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I am unable to tell you exactly the church's name, sorry. But you know there are religious fanatics that worship the cross. If you have not come upon such that do, then fine, but I have.

Peter1000 said:

I am unable to tell you exactly the church's name, sorry. But you know there are religious fanatics that worship the cross. If you have not come upon such that do, then fine, but I have.

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It actually makes no sense to me, but then neither does Mormonism.

Ironhold said:

Nothing in LDS theology that would have required you to throw those away.

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When have you seen paintings of angels with wings in a Mormon home? I never have.


Converts don't usually like to stand out from the rest of the crowd.

Phoebe Ann said:

When have you seen paintings of angels with wings in a Mormon home? I never have.

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...Yet that's not based on any sort of mandatory statement.

Phoebe Ann said:

Baptist Denominations in America
Alliance of Baptists


American Baptist Association


American Baptist Churches USA


Baptist General Convention of Texas


Conservative Baptist Association


Convention of Atlantic Baptist Churches


Cooperative Baptist Fellowship


General Association of Regular Baptist Churches (GARBC)


National Association of Free Will Baptists


National Baptist Convention/USA Inc.


National Baptist Convention of America Inc., International


National Missionary Baptist Convention of America


North American Baptist Conference


Pentecostal Free Will Baptists


Primitive Baptists


Progressive National Baptist Convention


Seventh Day Baptists


Southern Baptist Convention


Virginia Baptist Mission Board

Baptist Denominations in America

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If you don't believe us, then maybe you'll believe this reputable collection of religion news journalists:

You think Southern Baptist life is complicated? World of independent Baptists is truly wild

Phoebe Ann said:

When have you seen paintings of angels with wings in a Mormon home? I never have.

View attachment 258048
Converts don't usually like to stand out from the rest of the crowd.

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I kinda want to buy a copy of this book. Is that weird?

I think what a particular religion/sect tells its converts can be very revealing. Especially this book about the Mormon lifestyle would be very interesting.

Phoebe Ann said:

It actually makes no sense to me, but then neither does Mormonism.

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Just what makes no sense? I have met Christians that worhip the cross. If you have not, fine, but I have.

You are right that it makes no sense that some Christians worship the cross, I agree, but I have met them and they thought I was a nut for not worshiping the cross.

Peter1000 said:

Just what makes no sense? I have met Christians that worhip the cross. If you have not, fine, but I have.

You are right that it makes no sense that some Christians worship the cross, I agree, but I have met them and they thought I was a nut for not worshiping the cross.

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Just so we're clear. You've met certain Christians who say they worship a specific symbol. Not Christians who venerate the cross, honor the cross, who understand the cross as shorthand for Jesus Christ, as representative of Jesus, as pointing to Jesus, as pointing to what God has done for us through Jesus. None of that, but actually, intentionally, deliberately, worship this: , completely disconnected, unrelated to, and aside from its representational and significance of and as the locus of Christ's Person and work.

Is that what you are saying?

Or are you saying you've met Christians who honor, venerate, revere the cross for what it means, for what it represents, for what it signifies; that the cross is a shorthand of Christ and what Christ has done, of God's own gift of Himself through Jesus, and all which that means?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Just so we're clear. You've met certain Christians who say they worship a specific symbol. Not Christians who venerate the cross, honor the cross, who understand the cross as shorthand for Jesus Christ, as representative of Jesus, as pointing to Jesus, as pointing to what God has done for us through Jesus. None of that, but actually, intentionally, deliberately, worship this: , completely disconnected, unrelated to, and aside from its representational and significance of and as the locus of Christ's Person and work.

Is that what you are saying?

Or are you saying you've met Christians who honor, venerate, revere the cross for what it means, for what it represents, for what it signifies; that the cross is a shorthand of Christ and what Christ has done, of God's own gift of Himself through Jesus, and all which that means?

-CryptoLutheran

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I can't know for sure, but I am sure the cross is connected with the sacrifice of Jesus as he died on the cross. They were worshiping Jesus Christ and the cross that he was sacrificed on. They did not seem to be able to disconnect the cross from the worship of Jesus.

The Church of Jesus Christ does revere and honor the cross, but can disconnect it from the worship of Jesus which is the only subject of our worship.

Peter1000 said:

They did not seem to be able to disconnect the cross from the worship of Jesus.

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Why would anyone ever want to do that in the first place? That's the most anti-Christian thing I've ever heard. As the Apostle St. Paul wrote to the Galatians, "God forbid that I should glory in anything except the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Galatians 6:14)

The Church of Jesus Christ does revere and honor the cross, but can disconnect it from the worship of Jesus which is the only subject of our worship.

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A stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks, it is. And to Mormons, because your religion teaches you to hate Christianity and think what we do to be "abominable" before GOd, something "disconnected" from your worship of Jesus. That is literally unthinkable to Christians. Even those who do not venerate the cross as we do in the Orthodox Church still would never disconnect it from the worship of Jesus, as the holy scriptures themselves teach us not only that it is the only thing that we are to glory in, but that we are also preached and are to preach Christ crucified, with the apostles as our models in this.

Here is a Roman Catholic meditation on the glorification of the Holy Cross that I believe (even as an Orthodox person who has purposely left the RCC) sums it up quite well:


When we believe such things as proclaimed above (and we do), it is only natural that the liturgical among us would express it liturgically in veneration of the cross, not because we are so in love with two intersecting pieces of wood, but because we too are transformed and saved by the One who bore death upon it for our sake, and so we take it as our own symbol of everlasting life, power, and protection from the sting of death and draw of sin to which we were bound before His holy sacrifice upon it and His glorious resurrection. As explained in the video above, what was in the time of Christ a symbol of shame and death has been transformed by Him into the symbol of eternal life. And so when/if we speak of the "Power of the Cross" or some such, it is power that He has given it by His sacrifice upon it. Obviously it has no power of its own, since it could not overtake Him as it did (for instance) the left-hand thief. But through it He broke the power of death (recall the earlier Latin hymn, "Crucem Sanctam Subiit"), and so it has been completely transformed. Not only does it not signify death anymore, it cannot, because He has so utterly robbed it of that power by destroying death upon it.

I know I've shared this before, but the little bit in English at the beginning sums it up from the Orthodox point of view:


O Christ our God, Who was crucified for the redemption of our race,
May Your Cross be unto us a sign of tranquility,
The banner of victory and the armor of salvation
Protect us all under its wings and keep us by its victorious power
Our Lord and our God, forever and ever

Is this too "worshiping the cross"? Then thank God I should be counted among its "worshipers", because every single word of it is something I and all my fellow Orthodox Christians believe in very deeply, and I am sure we are not the only ones, even if not every kind of Christian has specific days set aside for the veneration of the holy cross. We don't begrudge anyone their organically-developed worship standards (at least not in the Oriental Orthodox Church...), so long as they too have the faith in the power of His sacrifice upon the cross, that by entering into it we are saved, and so as He was risen He will return to raise us up on the last day, that we shall have eternal life with Him by that very same power that is symbolized by the cross (the eternal victory of God over death). By this we can say with no amount of hyperbole that it is in/through/by the cross that we find salvation (as in the Syriac Orthodox hymn posted earlier which you misunderstood, "Sogdinan L'Slibo"/"We bow for the Cross"). Only you take this to be something separate from Jesus' sacrifice upon it because only you guys (Mormons) separate the two in the first place. The Scriptures clearly don't, as St. Paul and others testify. And so the Christian Church never has, because we received that same faith from the apostles themselves, not from a latter-day vision (given in nine different versions or something like that) to a farm boy in upstate NY by 'God' which supposedly overturned ~1,830 years of the apostolic Christian understanding of these matters. Though as you can see it really did nothing of the sort, anywhere, ever. Only those deceived by JS and his latter-day revelation believe otherwise, but that's just another in Mormonism's seemingly endless blasphemies which we can add to the list of things that he will have to answer for upon Christ's return. May Christ our God (the real one, not the one JS made up) have mercy on him and all those whom he has deceived.