Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 7, 2019

Albion said:
Yes, of course. He is saying that if the Faith that some person tells him about is real (as was the case with many people he encountered), it will produce good works. Therefore, if it does not, we know that it is just a claim, just talk. The evidence of it being real is missing.

We also made that point ourselves.

I have checked just about every Bible commentary on James 2:24 that I can find, and they all say what I have been saying. Here is one of them, taken from Bibleref.com--

It's important to remember two things, however. First, James is not claiming works are required for salvation. His entire argument has been about what kind of faith actually saves. He is on the attack against the attitude that one can be saved by a faith that has no works. He has stated repeatedly that such a faith is dead, useless. He is not saying that faith is not the means through which we receive God's grace; he is saying that a so-called-"faith" which results in no actions is not a genuine faith. A "works-less" faith cannot justify anyone.

James is teaching salvation by works after one is saved by God's grace.

James 1:21 says,
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."

This agrees with the words of Jesus.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth that loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life.

This agrees with John who taught that if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in you (1 John 3:15).

Are you saying that no believer can stumble into hating their brother?

If they do, John is saying they are not saved. This is not to say that they never had salvation. A believer can stumble into sin, but they can be forgiven again if they confess and forsake their sin (See: Proverbs 28:13).

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 7, 2019

Jason0047 said:
James is teaching salvation by works after one is saved by God's grace.

James 1:21 says,
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."

This agrees with the words of Jesus.

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus agrees with the lawyer on the truth that loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life.

This agrees with John who taught that if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in you (1 John 3:15).

Are you saying that no believer can stumble into hating their brother?

If they do, John is saying they are not saved. This is not to say that they never had salvation. A believer can stumble into sin, but they can be forgiven again if they confess and forsake their sin (See: Proverbs 28:13).

Paul puts the whole picture into just one sentence:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

We don't need to quote just about every verse in the Bible to show how we walk in the Spirit after we receive Christ. These three verses explain it all.

Firstly, we are saved by grace. We are not saved by works. We can do all the good works in the world and still go to hell. We have to know that we are hopeless and condemned sinners, worth only to be cast into the lake of fire along with the devil and his demons. Until we know that in the heart fully, then our acceptance of Christ will be just superficial. We will just get religion and not Christ, and we won't really know what we are saved from. Once we know that there is nothing at all in us that deserves salvation in Christ, then the gospel is good news to us, and we joyfully welcome Jesus dying on the cross and paying the price for our sin. We receive Him as our Saviour and Lord. That is the gospel.

It is not of works. It is the gift of God. Therefore we cannot boast that Jesus saved us because we are good people, going to church, living a moral life, doing religious duties and activities. "Oh, I'm such a good person. I only murdered one person in my life, but the rest of the time I was a clean as a whistle, so there is no reason why I can't go to heaven!" No. There is absolutely nothing in us that would qualify us to heaven at all. So, there is nothing in us for us to boast about.

Then, once we have received Christ as our Saviour and Lord, and accepting Him as our Lord means that we give up our lives, hopes and dreams, ambitions, and what we want to do for our future, and put ourselves completely in His hands. We are to hate our lives and stand up for Christ even if it means total rejection by friends, family, workmates, and even to be killed for our faith. If we are not prepared to that, Jesus is not really our Lord, and that we still love the world.

Then once that is settled, we become Christ's workmanship, and now start doing the good works that He has ordained us to do. This is the point where we follow God's moral law, because that will be our greatest heart's desire.
"Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long. Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, for they are always with me" (Psalm 119:97-98).
"But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night" (Psalm 1:2).

The deception is either we depend on our own goodness and works to be saved, or once saved we say it's all grace and don't put our lives into the hands of Christ to work His righteousness in us through the works He has ordained for us to do.

Brent Karding · Jun 8, 2019

Jason0047 said:
So then works do play a part in the salvation process.
For if they do not play a part in the salvation process, then that means one can have NO works later in their life and be saved.

Again, folks here are believing a circular contradiction.
You cannot have water without the previous components that make up water.
Anymore than you can have a saving faith without works.
So if this is so, then works play a part in our salvation to show that our faith is genuine. So salvation involves works.

You are basically right, but to say that "works play a part in our salvation" is a very confusing way to put it. Works play a part in the entirety of our salvation, if you mean the whole of salvation, i.e. persevering faith throughout life. The way you have put it, it sounds like you are saying, "You need works to get saved," which is damnable heresy (Gal 1:7-9). Perhaps a better way for us both to put it is to say, "Works play no part in justification." Initial saving faith is not a work; at the moment of saving faith, God declares the sinner righteous. But works necessarily follow that saving faith, although they have nothing to do with accomplishing it.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 9, 2019

Brent Karding said:
You are basically right, but to say that "works play a part in our salvation" is a very confusing way to put it. Works play a part in the entirety of our salvation, if you mean the whole of salvation, i.e. persevering faith throughout life. The way you have put it, it sounds like you are saying, "You need works to get saved," which is damnable heresy (Gal 1:7-9). Perhaps a better way for us both to put it is to say, "Works play no part in justification." Initial saving faith is not a work; at the moment of saving faith, God declares the sinner righteous. But works necessarily follow that saving faith, although they have nothing to do with accomplishing it.

James disagrees with you. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Paul was referring to being justified by "Works Alone" (or Law Alone) without God's grace because of the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" (See Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). There were Christians at that time who were being deceived by certain Jews that they needed to be circumcised FIRST to be “Initially Saved.” Paul was saying we are “Initially Saved” by receiving God’s grace through faith in Christ like the receiving of a gift (Note: Gifts are received once).

Circumcision is a part of 613 commands of the Old Covenant Law given to Israel. The law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). The Law (or All forms of Law) were not abolished (Matthew 5:17). Paul was not referring to the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers after we are saved by God's grace.

The Old Law is no more (which means the Old Law is not in effect contractually speaking or not in effect as a whole, meaning: not in reference to specific individual laws).

God's laws still exist today. They are New Covenant laws or laws from the New Testament. Jesus came to fulfill the Old Law by bringing us a more perfect Law under the New Covenant. The Old Law was a shadow pointing us to the New Law (which can only be obeyed after one is saved by God's grace through faith in Christ).

The basic princilple behind God's laws remain the same. The Old Law (which was a shadow cast from the the body of the New Law) says this:

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward" (Psalms 19:7-11).

So many today want to turn God's grace into a safety net to sin on some small level, but by God's law (for us today), is a way of showing those truly faithful servants to Christ the principal of being warned and that by keeping them there is great reward (See verse 11, i.e. Psalms 19:11).

But too many today are indifferent and so they sit on the sidelines in following Jesus. Jesus just becomes a mental acknowledgement and not the kind of Savior who can truly transform their life from being set free from the old sinful way of life.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 9, 2019

I am limited in my replies because I am away from home.

Blessings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 11, 2019

Oscarr said:
Paul puts the whole picture into just one sentence:
"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Ephesians 2:8 is talking about Initial Salvation. For gifts are received one time. Ephesians 2:1 also says we have been quickened (Which is also a one time act). Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in their hearts by faith. Again, this is a one time act that takes place. A person receives Christ into their heart usually one time.

Ephesians 2:9 is talking about "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" (Without God's grace) as the basis of one's Initial Salvation or as the Foundation of their Salvation. How so? Well, because it refers to the kind of works that a man would boast in. For men who do works that are outside the works of the Lord will boast in themselves. But, if a man allows God to do the good work within them, they are not going to boast in themselves, but they are going to boast in the goodness of the Lord.

Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about God directed works done through the believer because these are the kind of works a believer was created unto Christ Jesus to do. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). So any good works we do, it is of the Lord working in us.

But why would Paul talk in this way?

It is because we know in Galatians, and Romans, Paul alludes to the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." (See: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2; Also see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Circumcision Salvationism is saying that one had to FIRST be circumcised in order to be "Initially Saved." So if a person thought they had to first be circumcised to be saved, they would be saved by "Works Alone" as the foundation of their faith, and not by God's grace by faith in Jesus Christ. This is why Paul spoke against why we are not saved by works.

You said:
Firstly, we are saved by grace. We are not saved by works. We can do all the good works in the world and still go to hell. We have to know that we are hopeless and condemned sinners, worth only to be cast into the lake of fire along with the devil and his demons. Until we know that in the heart fully, then our acceptance of Christ will be just superficial. We will just get religion and not Christ, and we won't really know what we are saved from. Once we know that there is nothing at all in us that deserves salvation in Christ, then the gospel is good news to us, and we joyfully welcome Jesus dying on the cross and paying the price for our sin. We receive Him as our Saviour and Lord. That is the gospel.

It is not of works. It is the gift of God.

It's close but it is not exactly the truth. It is true we do need to accept Jesus as our Savior by faith first before doing any good work. We do need to believe in Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf (Which is the gospel). Many times this includes seeking forgiveness by way of prayer with the Lord Jesus Christ, too. In fact, I believe a Christian who reads God's Word will come to the knowledge of the truth of seeking forgiveness with Jesus as a key component of the next phase of their walk with the Lord if they have not done so before. A believer cannot deny the Sinner's Prayer in the Bible once that truth has been revealed to them (anymore than a believer cannot deny the Trinity once that truth is revealed to them).

Anyways, after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus (apart from man directed works alone salvationism), we need good works and holiness (From the commands in the New Covenant) as a part of the salvation process. For Jesus Himself agreed with the lawyer on the truth that we need to love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).

You said:
Therefore we cannot boast that Jesus saved us because we are good people, going to church, living a moral life, doing religious duties and activities. "Oh, I'm such a good person. I only murdered one person in my life, but the rest of the time I was a clean as a whistle, so there is no reason why I can't go to heaven!" No. There is absolutely nothing in us that would qualify us to heaven at all. So, there is nothing in us for us to boast about.

God's grace washes a believer's sins away of their past sin. But if they commit a grievous sin again, they need to confess and forsake it. They stand upon God's grace and they stand upon the Lord doing the good work within them. So there is no boast in themselves.

You said:
Then, once we have received Christ as our Saviour and Lord, and accepting Him as our Lord means that we give up our lives, hopes and dreams, ambitions, and what we want to do for our future, and put ourselves completely in His hands. We are to hate our lives and stand up for Christ even if it means total rejection by friends, family, workmates, and even to be killed for our faith. If we are not prepared to that, Jesus is not really our Lord, and that we still love the world.

Then once that is settled, we become Christ's workmanship, and now start doing the good works that He has ordained us to do. This is the point where we follow God's moral law, because that will be our greatest heart's desire.
"Oh, how I love your law! I meditate on it all day long. Your commandments make me wiser than my enemies, for they are always with me" (Psalm 119:97-98).
"But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night" (Psalm 1:2).

The deception is either we depend on our own goodness and works to be saved, or once saved we say it's all grace and don't put our lives into the hands of Christ to work His righteousness in us through the works He has ordained for us to do.

This is a contradiction. Why dedicate yourself to Christ if no sin can separate you from God?
If Jesus paid for all future sin, then there is no need to lift a finger for the Lord.
But of course this would expose Belief Alone-ism for what it is: A turning of God's grace into a license for immorality. For you said no moral life is needed as a part of salvation. But of course you contradicted yourself and then say you will do good things, etc., etc. But Jesus said to those who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin), too (See: Matthew 7:23).

Oh, and Paul said this:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 11, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Ephesians 2:8 is talking about Initial Salvation.

Justification is linked to Sanctification but one is not the other.
The New Testament speaks clearly about Justification by faith in Christ alone; but there is nothing to say that Sanctification is by faith.
Justification by faith is instant - the person is converted and saved.
Justification according to James is demonstrated. He knows that it is by faith but there has to be a demonstration of it in the believer's life. If the person's close family and friends don't see any difference, then they have every right to say that the person's religion is false.
I believe that when a person is converted to Christ, it means that Jesus is not only Saviour but Lord. If Jesus is not Lord, He cannot be the person's Saviour as well. Both come together. So when Jesus is Lord of the believer, he has a strong desire to live a holy and sanctified life and he puts effort and exertion in to achieve it the best he is able.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 11, 2019

Oscarr said:
Justification is linked to Sanctification but one is not the other.

Right, I agree. I believe they are not the same but they are linked together.
But where we disagree is that Sanctification deals with salvation.
This is where you appear to break the chain between the link between Justification and Sanctification.
For you do not believe you can lose salvation by committing grievous sin (like lying, lust, or hating), right? If so, then what of Sanctification?
In other words, how does Sanctification work if one is also saying that they can commit sin on some level and still be saved? It seems like a contradiction to me.

You said:
The New Testament speaks clearly about Justification by faith in Christ alone; but there is nothing to say that Sanctification is by faith.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
The Bible is the Word of God.
The Bible is how we get our faith.
The Bible teaches Sanctification.
So I am not sure why you would think that Sanctification is not a part of the faith. Hebrews 11 says, "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." (Hebrews 11:3). So we know about the origins of this world by faith in what God's Word says in Genesis. That's a part of the faith.

Besides, James says he will show you his works by his faith (See James 2:18).

You said:
Justification by faith is instant - the person is converted and saved.
Justification according to James is demonstrated. He knows that it is by faith but there has to be a demonstration of it in the believer's life. If the person's close family and friends don't see any difference, then they have every right to say that the person's religion is false.
I believe that when a person is converted to Christ, it means that Jesus is not only Saviour but Lord. If Jesus is not Lord, He cannot be the person's Saviour as well. Both come together. So when Jesus is Lord of the believer, he has a strong desire to live a holy and sanctified life and he puts effort and exertion in to achieve it the best he is able.

But the problem is that when a preacher teaches that future sin is paid for by having a belief in Jesus, this tends to give the listener or the audience the kind of thinking that they do not have to live holy for the Lord or to treat sin as seriously. For why obey laws that do not have any dire punishments to them? For example: Many today have no problem going over the speed limit by 1 or 2 miles per hour because there is no harsh penalty to doing so. But if people were thrown in jail and given a huge fine for doing so, you better believe more people would be more strict at obeying the posted speed limit signs.

The problem I have with Belief Alone-ism is that it gives a person a safety net to sin on some level while they appear to lead others to think they are living holy (When that's not really the case when we look at holy living according to the Bible).

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 11, 2019

Jason0047 said:
Right, I agree. I believe they are not the same but they are linked together.
But where we disagree is that Sanctification deals with salvation.
This is where you appear to break the chain between the link between Justification and Sanctification.
For you do not believe you can lose salvation by committing grievous sin (like lying, lust, or hating), right? If so, then what of Sanctification?
In other words, how does Sanctification work if one is also saying that they can commit sin on some level and still be saved? It seems like a contradiction to me.

The Wesleyan Arminian teaches that Sanctification is a one-time event received by faith, and that a believer is entirely sanctified and without sin. But the Bible does not teach that.

John Bunyan went through years of condemnation and doubt because he believed that he sinned in a way that he couldn't be forgiven. What set him free was that his sin happened when he was in a state of confusion, and was not willful or premeditated.

If you are saying that anyone who has sinned at any level, whether willful, premeditated or through weakness or compulsion, is not saved, then this must mean that in order for you to be saved or remain saved is not to have committed one sin since you believed in Christ. This involves sins that you know about and the unconscious ones you don't know about.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
The Bible is the Word of God.
The Bible is how we get our faith.
The Bible teaches Sanctification.
So I am not sure why you would think that Sanctification is not a part of the faith.

Paul is quite clear in his teaching that sanctification comes through personal effort.

18 "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

He does not contradict himself because he teaches that sanctification is involved in keeping his body in subjection, walking in the Spirit, fighting the flesh with the help of the Spirit, running the race, etc. What he said to Agrippa he says that he received forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified - by faith that is in me. He does not say that he is sanctified by faith, but through faith he is identified with them who are sanctified.

19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance." (Acts of the Apostles 26:18-20).

Repentance is turning to Christ to be justified by faith, and then they should make the effort to do the works that lead to sanctification. Justification by faith is demonstrated by the works that show the effort to become sanctified.

19 "These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:19-21).

He is talking about unconverted people, but then says to the believers, already justified by faith to work at building themselves up in the faith and to keep themselves in the love of God. This is sanctification by effort.

But the problem is that when a preacher teaches that future sin is paid for by having a belief in Jesus, this tends to give the listener or the audience the kind of thinking that they do not have to live holy for the Lord or to treat sin as seriously. For why obey laws that do not have any dire punishments to them? For example: Many today have no problem going over the speed limit by 1 or 2 miles per hour because there is no harsh penalty to doing so. But if people were thrown in jail and given a huge fine for doing so, you better believe more people would be more strict at obeying the posted speed limit signs.

Genuinely converted believers strongly desire to be perfectly sanctified, and work towards it. But they never reach sinless perfection. Expecting sinless perfection deceives people into self-righteousness if that is what is demanded as essential to salvation. Obedience is running the race, subjecting the body, walking in the Spirit, and then using 1 John 1:9 when we fail every time, which we do.

The problem I have with Belief Alone-ism is that it gives a person a safety net to sin on some level while they appear to lead others to think they are living holy (When that's not really the case when we look at holy living according to the Bible).

No genuinely converted believer will deliberately continue in a sinful lifestyle. They will always to striving to be obedient to the commands of Christ, and to demonstrate their love for Christ in what they do. A person who would deliberately commit sin with premeditation, never belonged to Christ because they are demonstrating the opposite of true sanctification which is the desire of every true believer.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 11, 2019

Oscarr said:
The Wesleyan Arminian teaches that Sanctification is a one-time event received by faith, and that a believer is entirely sanctified and without sin. But the Bible does not teach that.

Actually, Wesley agreed with Faith Alone (Which is not a teaching taught in the Bible - See James 2:24). That is why Christ's Sanctified Holiness Church was formed (See their video documentary here). They broke away from Wesleyan Holiness.

This is also confirmed by others. One good article to read is by Jeff Paton.

faith by works

You said:
John Bunyan went through years of condemnation and doubt because he believed that he sinned in a way that he couldn't be forgiven. What set him free was that his sin happened when he was in a state of confusion, and was not willful or premeditated.

If you are saying that anyone who has sinned at any level, whether willful, premeditated or through weakness or compulsion, is not saved, then this must mean that in order for you to be saved or remain saved is not to have committed one sin since you believed in Christ. This involves sins that you know about and the unconscious ones you don't know about.

Not all sin is the same. For starters, there is a sin that does not lead unto death (1 John 5:17).
However, there are other sins that the Bible warns about that if a person were to do them, they will be punished in the after life (See: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Revelation 21:8).

You said:
Paul is quite clear in his teaching that sanctification comes through personal effort.
He does not contradict himself because he teaches that sanctification is involved in keeping his body in subjection, walking in the Spirit, fighting the flesh with the help of the Spirit, running the race, etc. What he said to Agrippa he says that he received forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them which are sanctified - by faith that is in me. He does not say that he is sanctified by faith, but through faith he is identified with them who are sanctified.

I changed the passages before you replied.
What you are failing to understand is that Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh (sin) you will die, and if you put to death the deeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live.

You said:
Repentance is turning to Christ to be justified by faith, and then they should make the effort to do the works that lead to sanctification. Justification by faith is demonstrated by the works that show the effort to become sanctified.

So then Sanctification is necessary for salvation then.
If it wasn't then there is no need to have any Sanctification.

You said:
He is talking about unconverted people, but then says to the believers, already justified by faith to work at building themselves up in the faith and to keep themselves in the love of God. This is sanctification by effort.

Why does he have to tell them to keep themselves in the love of God if it was not possible to fall away out of the love of God?

Also, the apostle John says the person who knows the Lord keeps his commandments (1 John 2:3), and the person who says he knows the Lord and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4).

Genuinely converted believers strongly desire to be perfectly sanctified, and work towards it. But they never reach sinless perfection. Expecting sinless perfection deceives people into self-righteousness if that is what is demanded as essential to salvation. Obedience is running the race, subjecting the body, walking in the Spirit, and then using 1 John 1:9 when we fail every time, which we do.

Why does the Bible tell us to overcome, endure to the end, keep ourselves in the love of God if believers will just automatically do what is good and right?

Also, I am not referring to Sinless Perfectionism. I am referring to overcoming grievous sin that the Bible condemns (like: Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8). There is a difference between grievous sins (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.) vs. faults of character and or minor transgressions (like not taking out the trash out on the right day or going over the speed limit a little, etc.).

You said:
No genuinely converted believer will deliberately continue in a sinful lifestyle. They will always to striving to be obedient to the commands of Christ, and to demonstrate their love for Christ in what they do. A person who would deliberately commit sin with premeditation, never belonged to Christ because they are demonstrating the opposite of true sanctification which is the desire of every true believer.

That sounds all well and good in theory, but we know this is not the reality. What determines a lifestyle of sin? You said no believer will overcome sin, and yet you will say that they will not continue in a lifestyle of sin. So if a believer murdered every 10 years, it is okay because he is not doing it as a lifestyle?

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 11, 2019

Jason0047 said:
That sounds all well and good in theory, but we know this is not the reality. What determines a lifestyle of sin? You said no believer will overcome sin, and yet you will say that they will not continue in a lifestyle of sin. So if a believer murdered every 10 years, it is okay because he is not doing it as a lifestyle?

So you have totally overcome all your sin? Because all sin is the same to God, so going over the speed limit is a sin because of the disobedience to the command to comply with the civil authorities.
By your definition, if you are regularly committing even the smallest sins, then you are lost.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 11, 2019

Oscarr said:
So you have totally overcome all your sin? Because all sin is the same to God, so going over the speed limit is a sin because of the disobedience to the command to comply with the civil authorities.
By your definition, if you are regularly committing even the smallest sins, then you are lost.

No. The Bible does not teach that all sin is the same to God. Jesus says there is a greater sin (John 19:11). Jesus says that speaking blasphemy (bad words) against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable (Matthew 12:31). But speaking words against the Son of Man is forgivable (Matthew 12:32).

Not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 11, 2019

Oscarr said:
So you have totally overcome all your sin? Because all sin is the same to God, so going over the speed limit is a sin because of the disobedience to the command to comply with the civil authorities.
By your definition, if you are regularly committing even the smallest sins, then you are lost.

The context of Romans 13 is doing evil (serious sin), for we are to be afraid if hey punish us for they do not bear the sword in vain. The sword here implies punishment by death. This would be obviously for doing a serious crime and not minor infractions of the law (that due not incur major punishment) due to ignorance or negligence.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 11, 2019

Jason0047 said:
No. The Bible does not teach that all sin is the same to God. Jesus says there is a greater sin (John 19:11). Jesus says that speaking blasphemy (bad words) against the Holy Ghost is unforgivable (Matthew 12:31). But speaking words against the Son of Man is forgivable (Matthew 12:32).

Not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:16 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:16-17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

I don't have much of an issue with your conclusions. I just wonder if you are surrounded by false believers who say they have faith, but are continuing in grievous sin that demonstrates their hypocrisy and falsehood.

In my experience, I haven't met many of those at all. Except for one or two, all the others have been genuine believers who love the Lord and want above all to serve Him.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 11, 2019

Jason0047 said:
The context of Romans 13 is doing evil (serious sin), for we are to be afraid if hey punish us for they do not bear the sword in vain. The sword here implies punishment by death. This would be obviously for doing a serious crime and not minor infractions of the law (that due not incur major punishment) due to ignorance or negligence.

If that is your observation of the religious people you know, then you be in a church dominated by hypocrites and not true believers.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 11, 2019

Oscarr said:
I don't have much of an issue with your conclusions. I just wonder if you are surrounded by false believers who say they have faith, but are continuing in grievous sin that demonstrates their hypocrisy and falsehood.

I derived my belief from the Scriptures and not from any man.
I can also easily point out the hypocrisy in Belief Alone-ism.
One the one hand, many Belief Alone Proponents will admit they sin, and yet on the other hand they say they live holy. You cannot live holy and yet also commit grievous sin that the Bible condemns. It is a contradiction.

For again, do you Belief Alone-ism teaches that a Christian loses their salvation if they commit the sin of lying? If not, then Belief Alone-ism is teaching that a person can sin and still be saved (Which is the opposite of holy living). The Bible says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

You said:
In my experience, I haven't met many of those at all. Except for one or two, all the others have been genuine believers who love the Lord and want above all to serve Him.

I am aware that there are holiness teachers that live duplicitous lives. That does not undo the teachings in God's Word in any way. The problem is that Belief Alone-ism is the popular belief that everyone already believes today. It is not the narrow way.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 11, 2019

Oscarr said:
If that is your observation of the religious people you know, then you be in a church dominated by hypocrites and not true believers.

What has that have to do with Romans 13?
Besides, how do know my life and the kind of people I know?
You don't, so you are making blind judgments about things that are not even remotely true.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 11, 2019

Jason0047 said:
What has that have to do with Romans 13?
Besides, how do know my life and the kind of people I know?
You don't, so you are making blind judgments about things that are not even remotely true.

Well, you must either be talking from real experience, or just talking theory without personally knowing any professing Christians who are doing as you describe. As for me, I've never been associated with any church that is filled with religious hypocrites professing Christianity and living in willful sin.

Because you seem to be avoiding my direct question and are trying to muddy the waters by quoting a whole lot of unconnected verses, I just wonder if you are not sure whether you are saved or not because of your own shortcomings and failures in the sanctification area.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 11, 2019

Oscarr said:
Well, you must either be talking from real experience, or just talking theory without personally knowing any professing Christians who are doing as you describe. As for me, I've never been associated with any church that is filled with religious hypocrites professing Christianity and living in willful sin.

Because you seem to be avoiding my direct question and are trying to muddy the waters by quoting a whole lot of unconnected verses, I just wonder if you are not sure whether you are saved or not because of your own shortcomings and failures in the sanctification area.

You attempt to make this about me and or who I know and you are not addressing the actual verses I put forth. Please deal with the verses I put forth or I am moving on.

As for Belief Alone Proponents: I have talked with some who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and be saved while doing so. Others believe that a believer can commit suicide and still be saved. As a result of this belief, many have killed themselves thinking they would be saved by having a belief on Jesus.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 11, 2019

Jason0047 said:
You attempt to make this about me and or who I know and you are not addressing the actual verses I put forth. Please deal with the verses I put forth or I am moving on.

I won't bother because you are going to maintain your point of view and you are welcome to it.

Faith + Works of Faith = Salvation.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Senior Veteran

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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