Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

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It would be nice to see one verse that says we do not have to obey God...but why ask? It doesn't exist.

But you disobey God all the time. We all disobey God all the time. Thankfully our salvation isn't based upon our obedience.
Thankfully our salvation produces some sort of obedience.
 
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GodsGrace101

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It's whatever the Orthodox Christian Church says that it is.

So it is both free and from the Commandments, at once, because grace is not separate of humility, and humility is learned by constant failures with regards to keeping God's Commandments. The law is teacher, teaching the need for grace. Cease to try to keep the Commandments and you cease to receive grace, because grace comes only to the humble (1 Peter 5:5-6) (James 4:6-7). And so the Apostles teach us to obey God's Commandments if we want to be saved by grace, and this is the teaching they have left in their Lord's Church.
The more we reply to God,,,,the more He gives to us.
The more we use our grace,,,the more we receive.

It's of no use for God to give grace to someone that does not use it.
 
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JacksBratt

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You answered
NO
(and a hefty NO)
to the simple question:
ARE WE REQUIRED TO OBEY GOD.

You can reason this out as you wish...
but you are not properly representing the biblical truth.

It would be nice to see one verse that says we do not have to obey God...but why ask? It doesn't exist.


What does exist is this:
1 John 5:2-3
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
The question:

are we required to obey God?

Required for what purpose?

Required to be good people.. good Christians..good believers?

Required to shine like Christ would like us to shine for Him? To have people look at us and say.... "there is something special about them"?

OR..

Required for salvation?

Obviously a person would be required to obey God if they wanted to be seen as a Christian and God could be seen in them through this obedience.

Obviously Christians who don't obey Christ and His examples are not going to be good witnesses for Christ.

But... and I think this is what you were getting at... Are we required to obey God to achieve or retain salvation?

No... or nobody would be saved... I consider myself a practicing Christian who is attempting to be more like Christ with every passing day. I strive to be good and follow the example Christ set for us. I try not to sin...

But.. am I obedient to God all the time... nope... do I sin... for sure... do I like it... nope.. do I try not to... of course..

But, if I'm required to Obey God... for my salvation... I'm done... Cannot do it... even though I try and the intent is there... I fall short.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Again you're making assumptions about your interpretation, ending up with what is essentially the same kind of salvation by works soteriology Paul opposed.
Paul was against works OF THE LAW, and rightly taught that works of the law cannot save us.

AFTER we're saved.....is what Paul was preaching when he was teaching how we are to behave and what we are to do and not do.

Surely you've read his letters and all the admonishments he wrote of regarding living a holy life.

Paul and Jesus both taught works AFTER salvation.
Read Mathew 5 and 25....
 
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The more we reply to God,,,,the more He gives to us.
The more we use our grace,,,the more we receive.

It's of no use for God to give grace to someone that does not use it.
It's worse than of no use. I'm sure you're read the Gospel parable of the talents, and what will become of the one who does nothing with that which was given for him to grow (through effort). He went to the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Hence, there is no such thing as effortless salvation. Even lawn mowers left on the curbside for anyone who wants it for free, require that the one who'll receive it will move to go and get it, and once having gotten it, do whatever work necessary to get it running, and to keep it running, and to use it to do work with. Otherwise, what good is it to have received it? It's good only for being tossed in a scrap heap and melted by fire in a steel mill.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I agree DAVE! The "free to sin" ..I can see how some would take that down different roads.

You know.. He found me when there was no internet just 3+1 channels on TV. Were ever night they would go off the air. The only time I have ever questioned my salvation was the enemy and then other believers. So many KNOW they have the real truth. What has always shown results fruits was just taking Him at his word.. I just believed John 3:16-17 Rom 10 9-10. And growing up .. a verse I quoted in times of trouble was "and nothing shall by any means heart you".

I am not saved by obeying any commandments. We read "if you love me keep my words/commandments". But NO ONE seems to expand on that. Someone should make a thread.. ask "WHEN did you fall in love with Jesus?" I never meet anyone that "OH I LOVE JESUS SO MUCH" right after they got saved.. how can you love someone you dont know? How many here KNOW HIM?

Dont get me started on "if we love Him we keep His word" there are SO many things you WOULD be doing if you LOVED Him.. KNEW He was the ONLY way to heaven and EVERY person you see .. you have no clue if they are saved.. only could be lost .. and what did we do? BUT WE LOVE JESUS and keep his word?

So.. I am saved.. I am righteous ONLY because I believe in Jesus. He told me this.. and then I found it in HIS word. Never once did He tell me "you best OBEY ME if you want to live forever". There is no "you must LOVE me to get in". Thats not written. And I am human so I can be wrong lol..
Very nice post.

When we don't know what God wants from us...we by nature know what He wants.

For instance...when you became saved and God spoke to you and you loved Jesus as your Lord and Savior....did you automatically know to be nice to your neighbor? Did you automatically know that you shouldn't steal anything?

I believe you would answer yes.

So, by your own love for God, you obeyed Him.
And I'll bet you still do.

There is no reason to propagate the notion that it is NOT necessary to obey God.
It should be our honor to be a child of God and to obey Him..

And to say so.
 
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GodsGrace101

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But you disobey God all the time. We all disobey God all the time. Thankfully our salvation isn't based upon our obedience.
Thankfully our salvation produces some sort of obedience.
I wouldn't say I disobey God ALL the time.
All the time means I disobey at every temptation.

Here's how I feel about salvation.

Before we're saved, we think we're pretty good,,at least I did. No drugs or other stuff.

After I got saved I realized what a sinner I was.
Why? Because God has so much light around Him, that we feel humbled and needy for His grace and love. We realize how sinful we are.

The closer we get to God the more we see our sins.

Then God becomes a part of our lives and we become more and more how he'd want us to be.
We have peace because even when we sin we know we're on a road headed toward God.

I DO believe the N.T. is clear that we need to obey God. I fail to see why this is a scary thought since we will want to once we're saved.

Our salvation produces "some sort of obedience" in your words and this is good. As time goes on I think you'll become more and more aware of God in your everyday life. (if you aren't already).
 
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Eph 2:8–9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
It's necessary to have grace even to know what the Apostle is saying here.
 
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GodsGrace101

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The question:

are we required to obey God?

Required for what purpose?

Required to be good people.. good Christians..good believers?

Required to shine like Christ would like us to shine for Him? To have people look at us and say.... "there is something special about them"?

OR..

Required for salvation?

Obviously a person would be required to obey God if they wanted to be seen as a Christian and God could be seen in them through this obedience.

Obviously Christians who don't obey Christ and His examples are not going to be good witnesses for Christ.

But... and I think this is what you were getting at... Are we required to obey God to achieve or retain salvation?

No... or nobody would be saved... I consider myself a practicing Christian who is attempting to be more like Christ with every passing day. I strive to be good and follow the example Christ set for us. I try not to sin...

But.. am I obedient to God all the time... nope... do I sin... for sure... do I like it... nope.. do I try not to... of course..

But, if I'm required to Obey God... for my salvation... I'm done... Cannot do it... even though I try and the intent is there... I fall short.
It doesn't matter WHY I asked if we're to obey God.
The fact is we just are...
We obey God because He's GOD and He demands it.
I agree with all you've said above.
We're all striving -- no one is perfect in this life.
So does that give us the right to proclaim that it's not important to obey God?

Does obedience require perfection?
Of course not. Obey means to do as someone asks.
If we fail, we have the solution in 1 John 1 and 2.
We all fall short,,,but we're still on the road toward God...and on THAT road we do need to obey Him.
We obeyed our parents...shouldn't we obey God?
Just because we'll fail at it every now and then does not mean we give up. (as I know you haven't).
 
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GodsGrace101

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What do you do with your disobedience?
I know either when I'm doing this...or immediately after.

I feel sorrow...I always ask God to forgive me.
He already knows we're going to ask, He knows everything. But we do it anyway because we were told to by our Lord.

What do you do with yours?
 
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GodsGrace101

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It's worse than of no use. I'm sure you're read the Gospel parable of the talents, and what will become of the one who does nothing with that which was given for him to grow (through effort). He went to the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Hence, there is no such thing as effortless salvation. Even lawn mowers left on the curbside for anyone who wants it for free, require that the one who'll receive it will move to go and get it, and once having gotten it, do whatever work necessary to get it running, and to keep it running, and to use it to do work with. Otherwise, what good is it to have received it? It's good only for being tossed in a scrap heap and melted by fire in a steel mill.
Salvation is a cooperative effort between God and man. Faith is a word of action...faith requires movement.

I like your lawn mower analogy. Alas, these days I hear that Jesus said IT IS FINISHED....meaning that Jesus already did it all; it's finished.

Jesus' part is finished...He did what HE was come to do....

Now it's our part....
Luke 6:43-45
Mathew 16:24
 
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Kaon

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Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

Anything said by the Most High God, or the Word of God Himself is a commandment. This includes things like literally rejoicing when people do evil to you: there is even a biochemical reason for it that the Father doesn't have to explain (but we realize today). The Word of/Most High God is the only authority on Law; no man can add or remove His law.

Faith without works are dead.

Obedience is a work of faith - namely, you are trusting the Most High God that He will fulfil all of His promises if we obey Him - as He says. Moreover, obedience is a work of love, and it shows that you trust someone so much so that you are willing to do for them what seems illogical or unreasonable. Obedience to the Most High God categorically demands that you aren't afraid of Him, and that you trust Him. Otherwise, the obedience will be an activity of fear and ego.


Salvation is about faith, which means trust. Do we trust the Most High God knows better for us when He declares His Law, and demands obedience to it? Or, do we judge the Law as (in)operable, and amend it according to our hearts? What Father would allow His younger kids to break His rules He previously set up for His older children? Lineancy is different than ignorance and complacency; the Most High God has limitless patience, but is not one to be made a fool of.

No matter if you go to heaven, hell or think you stay on earth, obedience is the name of the game. Even if you follow yourself, you are obedient to yourself (i.e. you follow your own mind and heart). We have to choose which "master" we want to serve: disobedience, or a rewriting of established laws is sabatoge.
 
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bcbsr

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Salvation is about faith, which means trust. Do we trust the Most High God knows better for us when He declares His Law, and demands obedience to it?
The thing is does the Most High God declared that one must obey the Law to be saved?

Notice the dichotomy of Romans 10:5 Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

So that's the word of the Most High God. But in Gal 3:10-13 he also says, "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." (Deut 27:26) Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." (Hab 2:4) The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

Not only so but he goes on in Romans 10 to say, But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Rom 10:6,9,10

This dichotomy also shows up in Romans 3:20-24 "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So basically the Most High God presents a way to be righteous in his sight by compliance to the Law, but then goes on to say that no one meets that standard and therefore he introduces a different way to become right with God with is apart from law, apart from issues of performance, apart from one's compliance to commands. That way is by simply believing God.

As you may notice from this thread, something of which I was already aware of, namely that many on these forums don't properly distinguish these two. They'll claim that "believing" in Christ means obeying some kind of law. But "If righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" Gal 2:21 As I see it such people haven't really embrace the meaning of the above passages. Perhaps by talking about this essential issue some may come to saving faith.
 
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How much works is required?

How much obedience is required? Considering me as well as other with faith in Christ are not always obedient.

How much obediance is required? Can you, do you love the Lord with all of your heart? All of yoyr mind? All of your strength? I mean ALL?

How much of the commandments must we keep? 100% ??? 90%???

How many straws does it take to make a beard? Is one straw a beard? No! Two, three? How many?
 
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bcbsr

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How many straws does it take to make a beard? Is one straw a beard? No! Two, three? How many?
And how about this many?

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

To be saved according to your sect of Christians must a person do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law? Or can a person be justified by faith rather than by doing everything written in the Book of the Law?
 
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JacksBratt

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Obedience is a work?

Thanks for confirming the N.T. teachings.
Faith saves us initially...
works are necessary to continue being saved,
because it's necessary to obey God.
If you were adopted into a family... and they loved you as much as Christ loves us... would you continually have to do dishes, sweep floors, cook meals... to be considered part of the family?

I hope not..

Anyone who accepts Christ and who He is... and that they are a sinner and Christ died for them... enters into God's family.

There are good family members... and those family members that don't do much except try to be home on time for supper.. Doesn't make them any less a family member.

However... there are those that are told that they can be family members.... but reject the invite....
 
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Do you have a chapter and verse for this? Perhaps my translation uses a different word for candlestick.

Revelation 2
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Note, using the law of exclusion:
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The opposite of "overcometh" is to NOT overcome, thereby NOT being able to "eat of the tree of life". The writer does not really have to say, "and who doesnt overcome...etc" because that sentence automatically implied it.

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.


Lets use the law of exclusion again:
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.

So basically, those who do NOT overcome, who DO NOT keep his works unto the end, they will NOT get "power over the nations".

They will NOT rule them "with a rod of iron" and they will NOT get "the morning star".

Figurative language, but I believe we get the point. They will lose their position in salvation

Revelation 3
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Using that law of exclusion again:
If those in Sardis do NOT overcome, they will NOT be in the book of life, Christ will NOT confess them before the Father.

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Law of exclusion:
If the church the Laodiceans do NOT overcome, the will NOT sit with Christ in His throne.

There is no mistaking that these people are Christians. They are those in the church, saved members of Christs body, being commended and rebuked justly so. Most of those seven churches are chastised for transgressions that Christ literally told them would account for the loss of their salvation unless they would "overcome/repent".

No one can use the excuse that these people were never saved to begin with. It's undeniable.
 
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