"Sugar-coated Gospel" can only produce "Cheap Grace"

Loversofjesus_2018 · Jun 9, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
This is exactly how people’s faith is in vain. They think it’s OK to be firmly convinced of untruth. In the end Jesus says “depart.”

Paul loved people enough to want them to believe the truth and wrote many letters to that effect. We can all be very grateful he didn’t have your viewpoint.

Sure glad not a single writer of the Bible nor the Apostles thought like that. We’d have no NT if they had and the Gospel would have died with them since your view is not to try help others see the truth but leave others in deception for the sake of peace and friendliness.

The difference is some know that it’s a little bit harder to understand even to the point where it may never be fully understand and some think they have all the answers. Jesus was absolutely clear in pretty much what he said. He said if you love him keep his commandments, told one lady to go and sin no more and and told another guy to stop sinning. Do you think Jesus meant what he said or do you think we are supposed to read between the lines and know he didn’t really mean it 100%. I’m just trying to figure out where others stand because I personally don’t get it and am not ashamed to say so. It sounds to me like if you going to make works a requirement that perfection is the only way.

Dorothy Mae · Jun 9, 2019

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
The difference is some know that it’s a little bit harder to understand even to the point where it may never be fully understand and some think they have all the answers. Jesus was absolutely clear in pretty much what he said. He said if you love him keep his commandments, told one lady to go and sin no more and and told another guy to stop sinning. Do you think Jesus meant what he said or do you think we are supposed to read between the lines and know he didn’t really mean it 100%. I’m just trying to figure out where others stand because I personally don’t get it and am not ashamed to say so. It sounds to me like if you going to make works a requirement that perfection is the only way.

I don’t make works a requirement. Why did Jesus tell that one woman to go and sin no more. Was he making that a works requirement for her? Just thought of that.

I actually limit that statement to that sin she was doing because I don’t make works a requirement. But telling a woman to no longer commit adultery is not placing a heavy burden on her. Lots and lots of people never commit adultery. It’s not difficult. He wasn’t saying “go and be perfectly free of all sin.”

Dorothy Mae · Jun 10, 2019

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
I’m sorry if I’m coming across as failing to read the lines at all. I guess it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me when I read what everyone is saying and clearly the statements being made aren’t accurate. I really don’t worry much about agreeing or disagreeing more so I just like that things make sense. You keep saying Jesus only said that one time but in John 5:14 he tells a man to stop sinning after he had healed him earlier in Bethesda. So did he mean for the man to stop sinning or did he mean for the man to stop sinning sometimes?

He told the man to stop doing sin or something worse than his illness would happen to him. He did not say that to the woman. He never said anything like that to others. One needs to see why he said what he did to some and not to others.

Loversofjesus_2018 · Jun 10, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
He told the man to stop doing sin or something worse than his illness would happen to him. He did not say that to the woman. He never said anything like that to others. One needs to see why he said what he did to some and not to others.

Ok I think maybe I understand what gut saying. Either way it’s all good. Thanks for the back and forth

Loversofjesus_2018 · Jun 10, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
I don’t make works a requirement. Why did Jesus tell that one woman to go and sin no more. Was he making that a works requirement for her? Just thought of that.

I actually limit that statement to that sin she was doing because I don’t make works a requirement. But telling a woman to no longer commit adultery is not placing a heavy burden on her. Lots and lots of people never commit adultery. It’s not difficult. He wasn’t saying “go and be perfectly free of all sin.”

But he did say if we love him to keep his commandments. He didn’t say some.... he didn’t say most... he didn’t say all.... he just said what he said. If you love him keep his commandments. He didn’t tell the woman caught in adultery to go and commit adultery no more. He said go and sin no more. We can try and say that because that’s what she was doing that’s what he meant but it’s not what he said. So instead of reading between the lines if I’m reading that I don’t assume he was telling her just don’t commit adultery. I assume he was saying don’t sin.... again Jesus says “if you love me keep my commandments”.... so my question to you is if we don’t keep his commandments does that mean we don’t love him? This truly is confusing for me. Arguing isn’t my intention. My intention is to understand but I’m not necessarily looking for a bunch of opinions. I’m totally ok with you or anybody saying I’m not sure because that’s where I am. I try not to add to Jesus words. I try to keep my opinion out of it. So when I read Jesus saying “if you love me keep my commandments” I’m left confused because I haven’t been able to his commandments all the time. So I have to conclude because he didn’t say “keep my commandments some of the time” the only option I’m left with for salvation is belief in him and him alone. I’ve abreast failed him as far as my works are concerned. If I’m wrong I’d love to know and understand why and where. Thank you. And if you for whatever reason aren’t able to help me out thank you for our conversation. I’ve appreciated it regardless.

BNR32FAN · Jun 10, 2019

aiki said:
I have come to see that John 15:2 is generally badly understood. The phrase rendered "takes away" in the verse is, in Greek, "airo," the primary meaning of which is to "lift up" or "take up" or "carry," not "takes away" or remove.

Bless you friend. The Greek word aírō when referring to something that is attached to something actually does mean to cut off or remove. The definition does specifically say this as you can see in the example I provided below.

away

G142

Lemma:

αἴρω

Transliteration:

aírō

Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro

Part of Speech:

Verb

Language:

greek

Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

aiki said:
John 15:6 also does not refer to a saved person becoming lost but to an unsaved person and his final end. Nothing in the verse indicates that I must understand it to refer to a saved person. All believers are placed in Christ - and he in them - when they are saved. Being in Christ is virtually synonymous with being born-again. And so, when Christ speaks of one who is not in him, I understand him to mean one who has never been saved. Certainly, that such a person is "cast forth" from Christ (ie. "depart from me, I never knew you") and burned (aka. tormented in hell) appears to bear out this reading.

The word “abide” itself implies that the person referred to either is or was already in Christ. The word abide means to dwell, to stay, or to remain. A person cannot dwell, stay, or remain somewhere they are not at or have never been. I can’t stay in New York if I’ve never been there. This is also supported by what Jesus said in verse 2. The Father cuts off every branch “in Me” (in Christ) that does not bear fruit. Notice that this is not a false professor who is saying they are in Christ. This is Christ Himself who is saying these branches are in Him. Jesus said in verse 5 he who abides in Me and I in Him will bear much fruit. Verse 2 is referring to a believer who is in Christ but does not abide in Him. To say otherwise is to contradict what Jesus actually said. They are in Christ, they are attached to the vine. Another example of evidence is who is Jesus talking to? Jesus is speaking directly to His 11 faithful apostles who are the only people who are present with Him at this time. I’m verse 4 Jesus tells them “Abide in Me and I in you for apart from Me you can do nothing. This is a conditional statement. Unless they abide in Him they can do nothing. Now if Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles were incapable of failing to abide what is the point of this message? Why would Jesus warn them, even going so far as to explain the consequences of failing to abide, if they were incapable of failing to abide? Was Jesus warning them of something they are incapable of doing? Of course not that wouldn’t make any sense.

aiki said:
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit..."

Here Jesus anchors what he has said, not to the disciples' ability to do perfectly what he has commanded, but to his choosing and appointing of the disciples to bear spiritual fruit. Their relationship with him was his doing, his work, his sovereign appointment, not the product of their effort or of their initiation.

That’s one way to look at it, but in light of the context of the message what Jesus was actually saying is I have chosen you to complete a task. I have chosen you to do a job, that you would go a bear fruit.

aiki · Jun 10, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
The Greek word aírō when referring to something that is attached to something actually does mean to cut off or remove.

It can mean that, yes. But it isn't required or necessary that this particular meaning apply in John 15:2. Nothing in any of the Bible lexicons I've consulted indicate that "cut off" or, in the KJV, "takes away" must be how "airo" is translated. Even your own lexicon quotation does not state that "airo" must always mean "cut off" or "remove" when referring to something that is attached to something else. And, as I pointed out, the viticultural practice of the time in which Jesus spoke the words of John 15:2 would not have been to cut off branches but to lift them up from the ground onto trellises. Pliny the Younger, the Roman magistrate, described this very practice in detail in one of his many letters. You can read his description of the viticulture of his (and Christ's) time in Gary W. Derickson's article.

BNR32FAN said:
The word “abide” itself implies that the person referred to either is or was already in Christ. The word abide means to dwell, to stay, or to remain. A person cannot dwell, stay, or remain somewhere they are not at or have never been. I can’t stay in New York if I’ve never been there.

John 15:6
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Verse 6 does not say that the person it describes is abiding, remaining, or dwelling in Christ. No, it describes one who is not abiding in Christ. I don't see, then, what your observation about abiding has to do with the verse. It is not necessary for a person to have been in Christ in order to be described as one who is not in him. There are billions of people who do not presently abide in Christ who have never abided in him.

BNR32FAN said:
This is also supported by what Jesus said in verse 2. The Father cuts off every branch “in Me” (in Christ) that does not bear fruit.

You're Begging the Question here. I don't concede that "airo" in verse 2 actually means "cuts off." Thus far, you haven't offered anything persuasive enough to counter what I've pointed out about how the verse ought to be translated. So, whatever argument you want to make assuming that it does mean "takes away" or "cuts off" doesn't carry any argumentative weight with me.

BNR32FAN said:
Jesus said in verse 5 he who abides in Me and I in Him will bear much fruit. Verse 2 is referring to a believer who is in Christ but does not abide in Him. To say otherwise is to contradict what Jesus actually said.

Oh? You are doing this very thing.

Verse 2 does not say that the person who is "lifted up" is not abiding in Christ, but exactly the opposite. Jesus says, "Every branch in me that bears not fruit..." Can a branch be growing out of a vine and not be abiding in it? The branch is an extension of the vine, the outgrowth of the vine, and so the two are intimately and necessarily connected to each other. It is required that the branch be abiding in the vine in order for the branch to exist! You make Christ's vine analogy nonsensical, then, when you say that a branch can be growing out of a vine but not be abiding in it.

It does not follow necessarily from Christ's words in verse 5 that every "branch" in him will immediately and constantly bear fruit. Christ does not say when the fruit will appear or how much of it will develop, only that fruit will be - at some point - produced by the "branch." And so it is that the unfruitful branch in verse 2 is not "cut off" but "lifted up" onto a supporting trellis where it may better grow and produce fruit. No vinedresser expects fruit to develop instantly upon every branch that sprouts from the main vine; it takes time for grapes to appear on the branches of the vine. Christ would certainly know this when he chose to analogize from the grapevine, as would his disciples. None of them, then, would be thinking that an unfruitful branch would never bear fruit, only that more time was needed for fruit to develop which, I think, further supports the "lifts up" rendering of "airo."

BNR32FAN said:
Another example of evidence is who is Jesus talking to? Jesus is speaking directly to His 11 faithful apostles who are the only people who are present with Him at this time.

It doesn't follow that because Jesus is talking to his disciples, that he is always, therefore, talking about them.

BNR32FAN said:
I’m verse 4 Jesus tells them “Abide in Me and I in you for apart from Me you can do nothing. This is a conditional statement. Unless they abide in Him they can do nothing.

Had Jesus yet died on the cross when he spoke these words to his disciples? No. It seems to me, therefore, that Jesus was speaking to his disciples of a future action they would need to take, a future event they would need to experience, that would place them in him. None of them had been born-again, Spirit-indwelt, after the manner described by Paul in Titus 3:5 and by Luke in Acts 2. And so Jesus was saying to his disciples in John 15:5 that they would need to be placed in him by the Spirit (who he mentions to them in both chapter 14 and 16), born-again by the Spirit of God and baptized into Christ, and so able to "bear much fruit." Therefore, while Jesus was speaking to his disciples about abiding in him and bearing fruit, he was not speaking about their current state and the necessity of maintaining it but rather of a future state into which they would need to pass in order to be spiritually fruitful.

In any case, being spiritually fruitful is definitely contingent upon being in Christ. But truly being in Christ is not a condition out of which a person can move. It is God's work that brings a man into a saved state (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 Timothy 2:25; Romans 12:3) and it is God's work that keeps him there (Philippians 1:6; Philippians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

BNR32FAN said:
Now if Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles were incapable of failing to abide what is the point of this message?

See above. They were not yet truly abiding in him. That would not happen until Pentecost.

BNR32FAN said:
Why would Jesus warn them, even going so far as to explain the consequences of failing to abide, if they were incapable of failing to abide?

It appears to me that Christ was simply teaching his disciples about the difference between one who was in him and one who was not.

BNR32FAN said:
Was Jesus warning them of something they are incapable of doing? Of course not that wouldn’t make any sense.

This might be true, I suppose, if you think he was warning them. But, I don't think this. See above.

BNR32FAN · Jun 10, 2019

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Did Jesus say it’s inevitable that we would continue to sin or did he say don’t sin? Are we supposed to read between the lines to know he didn’t mean really stop sinning? Or did he mean try to it sin? Or did he mean exactly what he said which is don’t sin? I’m really curious and not trying to argue. I really don’t understand myself

That’s a really great question and to me I think the evidence is in our actions. Who never sins? Is there anyone here among us that can truly say he/she never sins? I sure wish I could but that would certainly be a lie. I took a pole a while back here on CF and out of about 65 Christians 3 of them said they never sin. I don’t know if it’s true or not, I wouldn’t call anyone a liar about it but I must admit that I do have doubts that anyone is capable of never sinning after becoming a Christian. I know many Christians in my church family who are truly devoted to serving God and not one of them claims to never sin. Personally I don’t think we will achieve glorification in this life. I think in this life we will always be in the sanctification process. Until I can see actual proof I just can’t bring myself to believe in a sinless life. I think they way it’s worded in the scriptures is inconclusive and could have an alternate meaning.

BNR32FAN · Jun 10, 2019

aiki said:
It can mean that, yes. But it isn't required or necessary that this particular meaning apply in John 15:2. Nothing in any of the Bible lexicons I've consulted indicate that "cut off" or, in the KJV, "takes away" must be how "airo" is translated. Even your own lexicon quotation does not state that "airo" must always mean "cut off" or "remove" when referring to something that is attached to something else. And, as I pointed out, the viticultural practice of the time in which Jesus spoke the words of John 15:2 would not have been to cut off branches but to lift them up from the ground onto trellises. Pliny the Younger, the Roman magistrate, described this very practice in detail in one of his many letters. You can read his description of the viticulture of his (and Christ's) time in Gary W. Derickson's article.

John 15:6
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Verse 6 does not say that the person it describes is abiding, remaining, or dwelling in Christ. No, it describes one who is not abiding in Christ. I don't see, then, what your observation about abiding has to do with the verse. It is not necessary for a person to have been in Christ in order to be described as one who is not in him. There are billions of people who do not presently abide in Christ who have never abided in him.

You're Begging the Question here. I don't concede that "airo" in verse 2 actually means "cuts off." Thus far, you haven't offered anything persuasive enough to counter what I've pointed out about how the verse ought to be translated. So, whatever argument you want to make assuming that it does mean "takes away" or "cuts off" doesn't carry any argumentative weight with me.

Oh? You are doing this very thing.

Verse 2 does not say that the person who is "lifted up" is not abiding in Christ, but exactly the opposite. Jesus says, "Every branch in me that bears not fruit..." Can a branch be growing out of a vine and not be abiding in it? The branch is an extension of the vine, the outgrowth of the vine, and so the two are intimately and necessarily connected to each other. It is required that the branch be abiding in the vine in order for the branch to exist! You make Christ's vine analogy nonsensical, then, when you say that a branch can be growing out of a vine but not be abiding in it.

It does not follow necessarily from Christ's words in verse 5 that every "branch" in him will immediately and constantly bear fruit. Christ does not say when the fruit will appear or how much of it will develop, only that fruit will be - at some point - produced by the "branch." And so it is that the unfruitful branch in verse 2 is not "cut off" but "lifted up" onto a supporting trellis where it may better grow and produce fruit. No vinedresser expects fruit to develop instantly upon every branch that sprouts from the main vine; it takes time for grapes to appear on the branches of the vine. Christ would certainly know this when he chose to analogize from the grapevine, as would his disciples. None of them, then, would be thinking that an unfruitful branch would never bear fruit, only that more time was needed for fruit to develop which, I think, further supports the "lifts up" rendering of "airo."

It doesn't follow that because Jesus is talking to his disciples, that he is always, therefore, talking about them.

Had Jesus yet died on the cross when he spoke these words to his disciples? No. It seems to me, therefore, that Jesus was speaking to his disciples of a future action they would need to take, a future event they would need to experience, that would place them in him. None of them had been born-again, Spirit-indwelt, after the manner described by Paul in Titus 3:5 and by Luke in Acts 2. And so Jesus was saying to his disciples in John 15:5 that they would need to be placed in him by the Spirit (who he mentions to them in both chapter 14 and 16), born-again by the Spirit of God and baptized into Christ, and so able to "bear much fruit." Therefore, while Jesus was speaking to his disciples about abiding in him and bearing fruit, he was not speaking about their current state and the necessity of maintaining it but rather of a future state into which they would need to pass in order to be spiritually fruitful.

In any case, being spiritually fruitful is definitely contingent upon being in Christ. But truly being in Christ is not a condition out of which a person can move. It is God's work that brings a man into a saved state (John 6:44; John 16:8; 2 Timothy 2:25; Romans 12:3) and it is God's work that keeps him there (Philippians 1:6; Philippians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

See above. They were not yet truly abiding in him. That would not happen until Pentecost.

It appears to me that Christ was simply teaching his disciples about the difference between one who was in him and one who was not.

This might be true, I suppose, if you think he was warning them. But, I don't think this. See above.

You’ve made some interesting points my friend but please consider this.

aiki said:
It appears to me that Christ was simply teaching his disciples about the difference between one who was in him and one who was not.

Jesus had kept the apostles by His power. He said this in John 17, I believe, in His prayer to The Father the very same evening. He also said they didn’t belong to this world. So at that time they were not of the flesh they were already of the Spirit. They had already bore fruit which cannot be done unless someone is of the Spirit. Jesus had just told them they already knew the Holy Spirit and He abides within them just a minute or two before He gave the message in John 15.

“that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭14:17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I believe another strong indication is John 14:25 also spoken to them just minutes before Jesus gave His message in John 15.

“"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭14:25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Sure this could’ve been meant as physically abiding with them but it also could’ve been speaking of spiritually abiding with them or both. Given that they have bore fruit and obeyed His commandments showing both love for The Father, Jesus, and others, they are not of this world, they have proven their faith by their works. Their works are evidence of their faith and evidence that they are already abiding in Christ.

Christ also said this in the same message.

“and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Every indication points to them being in Christ before the message in John 15 is given. So I don’t believe Jesus was talking about a future abiding or dwelling after His resurrection. I believe John 15:2 is a contrasting statement. Contrasting those who are in Him who do not abide/remain with those who do abide/remain. I’m also not aware of any scripture that says that disobeying God will result in being “lifted up”. Jesus is not only the Way to life He is the Way of life.

Loversofjesus_2018 · Jun 10, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
That’s a really great question and to me I think the evidence is in our actions. Who never sins? Is there anyone here among us that can truly say he/she never sins? I sure wish I could but that would certainly be a lie. I took a pole a while back here on CF and out of about 65 Christians 3 of them said they never sin. I don’t know if it’s true or not, I wouldn’t call anyone a liar about it but I must admit that I do have doubts that anyone is capable of never sinning after becoming a Christian. I know many Christians in my church family who are truly devoted to serving God and not one of them claims to never sin. Personally I don’t think we will achieve glorification in this life. I think in this life we will always be in the sanctification process. Until I can see actual proof I just can’t bring myself to believe in a sinless life. I think they way it’s worded in the scriptures is inconclusive and could have an alternate meaning.

Yeah I agree. So now that only leaves us with one possible way to salvation according to scripture and that’s Jesus. I really never spent much time thinking about wether it’s faith only or works plus faith because if the best of Christians(whatever that means) can’t do what Jesus said then salvation doesn’t seemed to based on it. Maybe there are rewards according to scripture or what not but unless we change scripture and start adding in our own thoughts or opinions I don’t think our performance will ever make us good enough.

BNR32FAN · Jun 10, 2019

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Yeah I agree. So now that only leaves us with one possible way to salvation according to scripture and that’s Jesus. I really never spent much time thinking about wether it’s faith only or works plus faith because if the best of Christians(whatever that means) can’t do what Jesus said then salvation doesn’t seemed to based on it. Maybe there are rewards according to scripture or what not but unless we change scripture and start adding in our own thoughts or opinions I don’t think our performance will ever make us good enough.

Well there is also the other side of the spectrum that we cannot live an ungodly lifestyle and expect to receive salvation. Matthew 7 is clear on that.

Loversofjesus_2018 · Jun 10, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Well there is also the other side of the spectrum that we cannot live an ungodly lifestyle and expect to receive salvation. Matthew 7 is clear on that.

So then the confusion remains because Jesus clearly said keep his commandments. If we fail once we didn’t keep them. So I’m not denying t the other side I e decided that I’m not going to pick a side. I really don’t have an answer. I’m not going to allow room for my shortcoming last but cut it off because someone else may struggle more than I do. I’m my opinion we are all in the same boat.

johnnywong · Jun 10, 2019

aiki said:
Yes, I agree. Many attending churches are also false converts because they have been given a false Gospel that lays upon them burdens of performance and fear and diminishes the perfect atoning work of Christ at the cross. So, yes, the Gospel does get "sugar-coated" but it also gets coupled to legalistic things that have no part whatever in how a person is saved (ie. good works).

The Gospel, as I read of it in Scripture, looks like this:

Four Main Steps in sharing the Gospel:

1.) The Warning:

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death...

John 3:36 (NKJV)
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Romans 2:5-6 (NKJV)
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds"

Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV)
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

Matthew 16:27 (NKJV)
27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

Matthew 10:28 (NKJV)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2.) The Message:

– God is perfectly holy. (Deut. 32:3, 4; 1Jn. 1:5)
– We are wicked sinners. (Jer. 17:9; Isa. 53:6; Ro. 3:23)
– Our sin separates us from God. (Ps. 5:4; Isa. 59:2; Ps. 1:5, 6)
– God offers to us reconciliation to Himself through Jesus Christ (Ro. 6:23; Jn.
3:16, 17; Col. 1:13-14; 1 Pe. 2:21-24; Isa. 53)
– If by faith we receive Christ as our Saviour, we will be saved from the just
punishment of our sin and be reconciled to God. (Ro. 8:9, 10; 1Jn. 5:11-13
; Jn. 3:16)
– Receiving Christ as one's Saviour involves a change of mind and behaviour, a
confessing of one's sins and a forsaking of them, and a turning to a life centered
upon Christ. (Matt 4:17; Mk. 1:15; Acts 2:38; 17:30; 1Jn. 1:8,9; Ja. 4:6-10)

3.) The Call:

2 Corinthians 6:2 (NKJV)
2 For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

Matthew 9:12-13 (NKJV)
12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
13 But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice.' For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance."

2 Timothy 1:8-9 (NKJV)
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God,
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Matthew 11:28-30 (NKJV)
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Revelation 3:20 (NKJV)
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.

4.) The Counting:

Luke 14:25-33

Matthew 16:24-26 (NKJV)
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
26 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?

Colossians 3:2-10 (NKJV)
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.
5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.
6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience,
7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.
8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,

Yes, and others want to make the gift of salvation something that must be earned.

A saving faith is one that anticipates corresponding action; it is a faith that expects that what is believed will be manifested in how one thinks, feels and behaves; it is a faith that arises from the heart, not merely the head and steps out fully onto (and into) the "bridge of salvation" who is Christ, holding nothing back.

Totally agree with you.

My thread may give a false impression of too emphasis about legalism.

But actually it is about Will not Work, God see what is more important is the Heart of people.

But it seems that nowadays most of the Preaches want to make repentance not important and in the name of legalism to suppress the true Gospel in order to meet the needs of those who want to keep their sinful life at the same time to buy an insurance policy to Heaven.

johnnywong · Jun 10, 2019

Nicolaus Mourer said:
Good works and holy conversation are profitable unto the believer, but are not a requirement of salvation. Salvation is a free gift given by God; that means that there is nothing we can do to earn, and nothing can be done to lose it.

You say, "Jesus isn't a ticket to heaven." But Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, the only strait gate that men must enter to be saved. Few there are who find and trust in him. All who go to be with him when they die will owe all to him because he paid it all. Obedience to the letter and self-righteousness, while good, do not have any bearing upon our salvation. It can't, otherwise nobody could be saved. Nobody is good enough, except Jesus.

It is a free and conditional gift.

It is easy to miss the most important part of the Gospel !

It is conditional in the sense that you must has true repentance (including turns away from your old self )

and want to obey to the Holy Spirit to be transformed.

And in this sense it is not free at tall, it cost your soul !

Be careful many people want to emphasis "free gift " in order to increase the acceptance rate of accepting the Gospel , to increase the number of churchgoers to have more people to pay the salary of the Pastors.

The Fire in the Hell waiting for them will be extra hot!

johnnywong · Jun 10, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I agree, too many pastors fail to teach what it means to abide in Christ. The concept of receiving salvation by simply believing integrated with eternal security leads many to believe that once a person has believed they have been saved and no matter what they do afterwards they will still receive salvation. Abiding in Christ, being born again and becoming a new creation, and walking in the Spirit have all been completely removed as requirements for salvation. These are all now taught as optional behavior of a Christian. Many simply read one or two verses from the books of the gospel and epistles and build their theology based upon only bits and pieces of the message that these books are conveying, ignoring everything else that doesn’t fit into their theology. For example they might read John 3:16 and say I’m saved because I believe and I don’t need to do anything other than believe because it says right here in John 3:16 that believing is the only requirement for salvation. Then they either have to twist John 15 into saying what they need in order to fit into their theology or just disregard it completely. Another example would be Ephesians 2:8. Paul says I am saved by grace thru faith I don’t have to do anything else to receive salvation. Then they either twist Ephesians 5:1-5 to fit their theology or disregard it completely. I’ve often said this, that this kind of cherry picking scriptures is much like if someone were to read one sentence out of the driver’s license handbook and said “Look it says right here I can get my driver’s license at the age of 16.” Just because the statement says you can get it at the age of 16 doesn’t mean there are no other requirements. If you keep reading you will notice that you must be a resident of that state, you must have completed a driver’s education course, you must pass both a written exam and driving test, and you must pay the appropriate fee. Being of legal age is only the first requirement not the only requirement. In a similar way believing in Christ is simply the first requirement not the only requirement. We must also abide in Christ. This means we will bear much fruit and refrain from sin.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:1-14‬ ‭NASB

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 JOHN 2:3-6 NASB

Thanks GOD !

This is the reason to write this thread from the beginning is to have faithful servant of Jesus to speak out the truth of Gospel.

Inside the churches , many pastors start with "sugar-coated " Gospel to increase the acceptance rate of Gospel and to increase the quantity at the expense of quality of churchgoers ( otherwise who pay the bills of the church.

Also many pastors use "sugar-coated " sermons to speak to them what they want to hear to paralysed them in order not

to scare off them not to attend the church and allow them to continue to live the sinful lives.

johnnywong · Jun 10, 2019

James Murphy said:
The proper distinction between Law and Gospel. Unfortunately, I don't think it's taught anymore

Don't be discouraged .

We can start by ourselves to continue preaching the true gospel.

Those pastors out of concern of salary will try to modify the gospel in order to increase the acceptance of gospel.

But for those not under financial pressure just like most of us we are free to preach the Gospel

aiki · Jun 10, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Jesus had kept the apostles by His power. He said this in John 17, I believe, in His prayer to The Father the very same evening. He also said they didn’t belong to this world. So at that time they were not of the flesh they were already of the Spirit.

Well, here's what Jesus said of the world and his disciples in chapter 17:

John 17:11
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to you. Holy Father, keep through your own name those whom you have given to me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:14
14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that you should take them out of the world, but that you should keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Where in what Jesus says in the above verses does he indicate that his disciples had been born-again, baptized into him, after the manner of the disciples at Pentecost? He speaks of them being "not of the world," yes, but that could simply mean that they were separated out from the world by Christ as his disciples, not that they were born-again. Why would the disciples require the Pentecost event if they were already spiritually-regenerated, in-Christ children of God? And why, if men could be born-again without the atoning work of Calvary, did Jesus have to die at Calvary? Why couldn't all people come into relationship with Christ as you say the Twelve did without the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross?

BNR32FAN said:
So at that time they were not of the flesh they were already of the Spirit.

This isn't what Jesus said, though. This is an extrapolation you're making from his words.

BNR32FAN said:
They had already bore fruit which cannot be done unless someone is of the Spirit.

Did none of the OT saints "bear fruit"? Did none of them obey God? Did none of them serve the will of God? None of them were "of the Spirit" in the post-Calvary sense.

BNR32FAN said:
Jesus had just told them they already knew the Holy Spirit and He abides within them just a minute or two before He gave the message in John 15.

??? No he hadn't. What mention Christ made of the Holy Spirit in chapter 14 was to inform the disciples of the Spirit's ministry to them after Christ had left them. Verse 17, which you quote, says only that the Spirit was with them, not in them. In fact, Christ makes this distinction in the verse, saying that, while the Spirit was presently with the disciples, he would be ("will be," in the verse) - future tense - in them. And this is exactly what happened at Pentecost when the Spirit came upon the disciples and filled them.

BNR32FAN said:
I believe another strong indication is John 14:25 also spoken to them just minutes before Jesus gave His message in John 15.

“"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭14:25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Sure this could’ve been meant as physically abiding with them but it also could’ve been speaking of spiritually abiding with them or both.

I think this is stretching the verse to accommodate your position. As such, it doesn't seem like a "strong indication" to me. Very obviously, Christ meant he was physically present with the disciples.

BNR32FAN said:
Christ also said this in the same message.

“and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Every indication points to them being in Christ before the message in John 15 is given. So I don’t believe Jesus was talking about a future abiding or dwelling after His resurrection.

??? Every indication? I see no indications at all of what you're suggesting. But I do see very serious problems with asserting that the disciples were born-again, Spirit-indwelt believers before Christ's atoning work at Calvary and the coming of the Comforter at Pentecost. See above.

BNR32FAN said:
I’m also not aware of any scripture that says that disobeying God will result in being “lifted up”.

What does being "lifted up" represent? It seems to me to mean that, rather than cutting of an unfruitful believer, God will act to nurture fruit in the unfruitful branch. Read Hebrews 12:5-11.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 10, 2019

Loversofjesus_2018 said:
Have you ever lied since you have been saved? I would be lying if I said I met Christ and I haven’t lied since. The truth is I have lied more than once since I have met Christ..... doesn’t matter if it was me saying I’m 5 min away when I was really 7 min away or me saying I didn’t drink the last soda when I did. Lying is lying and we can’t just start breaking it into categories. A lie is not telling the truth. Regardless of how small or big the lie. So is my salvation in jeopardy if I’ve done those things?

Sure, but it was not often. When I did, I was then convicted of this grievous sin by the Spirit to confess of it to the Lord Jesus Christ to be forgiven of it (See 1 John 1:9) (John 16:8). I never had the mind set that most Christians have today that they will always commit some kind of grievous sin as if it was a matter of fact or something. Besides, Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. So if we do not put away lying out of our lives, we are not going to make it (Which would include myself). It's why the Bible says, "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11). The second death is the Lake of Fire (See again Revelation 21:8).

Also, Believers are said to have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). I believe this is in regards to grievous sin (like hate, murder, lust, lying, etc.), and not in regards to faults of character, or minor transgressions like not taking out the trash on time, or going over the speed limit a little, etc. For not all sin leads unto death; One example is the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17.

Bible Highlighter · Jun 10, 2019

bcbsr said:
Once again typical of Salvation-by-Works Christians to append every instruction in the Bible with "in order to be saved". Apparently they can't imagine doing anything right unless they are threatened with eternal condemnation.

There are many warnings in Scripture for not doing certain works and or in committing certain sins. In my experience, Belief Alone Proponents either ignore these many verses in the Bible, or they change them to mean something else beyond what they plainly say.

Paul says,
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:13).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says,
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

The author of Hebrews says,
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;" (Hebrews 12:14-15).

Bible Highlighter · Jun 10, 2019

Nicolaus Mourer said:
I'm not able to respond to the posts you wrote me because they are too long, and I am on a phone with no access to a computer at this time; I work a full time job and do not have that kind of time.

I also work a full time job and I am also married. Maybe you have children, so maybe this is what makes it difficult for you, friend. But in my experience: I find in life that when something is important, you make the time, no matter what other things in life are keeping you busy. For me, I love discussing God's Word. It is my passion, and my joy. I love to be challenged when my opponents bring up a difficult verse or passage to explain. It makes me grow in my understanding of God's Word.

In my many dealings with Belief Alone Proponents over the many years (on different forums), Most (not all) in the Belief Alone Camp will not really give an explanation to the verses I put forth (even when they have the time). So I am not surprised you are not providing an explanation to the verses in my post that destroys Belief Alone-ism.

You said:
So you won't be hearing a rebuttal from me on your false doctrine, neither any replies on this thread because I have said my peace. Nothing I say or show from scripture will change your mind, therefore I must shake the dust off of my feet. Good day.

You don't know me very well then. I have actually changed my mind several times when I was confronted with a fact in Scripture (even when that fact in Scripture was presented to me by a fellow opponent on the topic of Salvation).

Anyways, thank you for wishing me a good day.
I hope you have many good days to see where I am coming from, friend.
May the Lord's goodness always be upon.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.

"Sugar-coated Gospel" can only produce "Cheap Grace"

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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