If you do not purge the old, how can the new take hold?

Nothing of what you have said makes sense.

Gottservant said:

But is that a state of possibility, that things could make sense? Or is it a state of creative possibility, that things could make ten or a hundred times as much sense?

I don't think we need to settle for mere causality.

He that settles for causality, bypasses the biggest possibility of dream.

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What you have just written is nonsensical.

Gottservant said:

You are hammering a point, with very little for me to go on...

It is getting harder for me to interpret your position on what you value, with any sense of what is more or less (to you).

Perhaps if you made clear, what you want to forget and what you want to remember in a "causal" way - we could work out what you see in Evolution (for people like me to gain, from)?

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People don't gain anything from evolution. Populations do, specifically future populations. You are approaching evolution all wrong. Go online and actually learn what evolution is about, what the theory of evolution talks about if you want to learn.

Gottservant said:

Hi there,

So, the fuller text I wanted to write was "If you do not purge the old, how can the new take hold? If you do not make allowances for the new, where can the new find root??"

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Do you mean like Phlogiston theory giving way to combustion theory; or alchemy giving way to chemistry?

Gottservant said:

Just give me a chance here for a minute: this is something I have going while I look at other things on the internet.

Just watch it for a second and tell me, what part of it makes "Evolutionary sense" to you: can you do that?

Frequently people who are very devout Evolutionists tell me that they don't find evidence in what I say that I "have evolved", because the way in which I believe doesn't agree with what they think Evolution amounts to, (what Evolution is - so to speak) - if I could change myself to be like anyone else, one person I would emulate a lot would be Joel Osteen, Joel Osteen "makes sense" to me.

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There is no such thing as 'evolutionary sense'. Your are arguing against something that does not exist.

You need to stop treating evolution like it's a religion that needs to be worshipped and see it as the science that it is. And no, you can't 'evolve' in the literal biological.

Seriously, try and learn about evolution and what it actually says, or I'm seriously going to have to place you on ignore since I'm getting very tired of these types of back and forth where you show you don't know anything about evolution or science.

Ophiolite said:

Don't you get tired of making bad excuses?

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Do I have some obligation to study evolution?

OldWiseGuy said:

Do I have some obligation to study evolution?

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If you keep talking about it in a way that shows that you are consistently wrong about it... just a little bit, yes.

Warden_of_the_Storm said:

If you keep talking about it in a way that shows that you are consistently wrong about it... just a little bit, yes.

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Expensive post graduate level science classes aren't in my budget.

OldWiseGuy said:

Expensive post graduate level science classes aren't in my budget.

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Who says you have to go to a post graduate level class? There's free and simple courses for it online that you can read.

OldWiseGuy said:

Do I have some obligation to study evolution?

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As Warden of the Storm has pointed out, yes, under the circumstances you do.

You repeatedly make claims about evolution that are false.
You repeatedly make it clear that you do not understand the principles of evolution.
You continue to make these errors despite being corrected.
You pontificate on a subject you are largely ignorant of.

Such behaviour is discourteous in the extreme. It is also prejudicial to the perception non-Christians construct of Christian behaviour.

So, yes, you have an obligation to those with whom you are arguing.
You have an obligation to your religion.
You have an obligation to yourself.

Ophiolite said:

As Warden of the Storm has pointed out, yes, under the circumstances you do.

You repeatedly make claims about evolution that are false.
You repeatedly make it clear that you do not understand the principles of evolution.
You continue to make these errors despite being corrected.
You pontificate on a subject you are largely ignorant of.

Such behaviour is discourteous in the extreme. It is also prejudicial to the perception non-Christians construct of Christian behaviour.

So, yes, you have an obligation to those with whom you are arguing.
You have an obligation to your religion.
You have an obligation to yourself.

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You do realize that you are making it a moral imperative that I study then accept the ToE. Why don't you study creation, you have all the evidence you need?

Also I'm not the one playing 'dodge ball' every time a serious question is asked. If you know the answers why always tell me to 'go study the subject'? Wait, don't tell me...you don't have the answers either.

OldWiseGuy said:

You do realize that you are making it a moral imperative that I study then accept the ToE. Why don't you study creation, you have all the evidence you need?

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Incorrect. There is no requirement that you accept the ToE. If you study it seriously then the following would be the likely consequences:
1) You would be able to avoid the silly assertions you currently make about evolution.
2) You would be able to avoid the silly questions you currently ask about evolution.
3) You would be able to identify present limitations of the theory and thus formulate your reservations more clearly.
4) You would recognise that the strength of evidence and argument was much greater than you had previously understood. This can be resolved in a number of ways, but accepting ToE is only one of them and that outcome does not require abandoning your Christian faith.

OldWiseGuy said:

Why don't you study creation, you have all the evidence you need?

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I have done so and continue to do so. In my personal library I have a score of books on Creationism or Intelligent Design arguing in their favour. I have another dozen or more critiquing the concept. And the study of those is aside from my Bible reading, watching TV evangelists, reading Christian literature, etc.

I wouldn't entertain for a moment discussing creation without having made a basic study of its more important aspects. To do so would be extremely rude. That's why I find your approach . . . inappropriate.

OldWiseGuy said:

Also I'm not the one playing 'dodge ball' every time a serious question is asked. If you know the answers why always tell me to 'go study the subject'? Wait, don't tell me...you don't have the answers either.

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I have given you answers in the past. Many other members have given you answers in the past. You have ignored, ridiculed, or misunderstood these.

While the description of evolution can be achieved in a page, a paragraph, even a single sentence, to present the evidence in a sufficiently detailed manner to deliver sound understanding is not readily achieved on an internet forum. The best way of understanding evolution is to study it.

Also, and I think you know this: a teacher cannot teach a student who is unwilling to learn and your assertions, questions and deviations make it clear you are not interested in learning. Tell me you are serious about it and we can start a step by step process to lead you to understanding, with no requirement you have to accept the conclusions of that process.

Ophiolite said:

Also, and I think you know this: a teacher cannot teach a student who is unwilling to learn and your assertions, questions and deviations make it clear you are not interested in learning. Tell me you are serious about it and we can start a step by step process to lead you to understanding, with no requirement you have to accept the conclusions of that process.

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Please understand. I don't need Evolution 101. That's kid's stuff. I want to know how evolution accounts for growth and development, as well as maturity? Each stage of growth must evolve, just as each tiny movement of a limb or organ must successfully evolve. So from sperm and egg (which alone has incredible evolutionary requirements) until maturity and death there are (must be) trillions of stages of growth and development, each of which must survive the evolutionary process.

Do you see how impossible that is to grasp. It lends credibility to argument by incredulity.

OldWiseGuy said:

Please understand. I don't need Evolution 101. That's kid's stuff. I want to know how evolution accounts for growth and development, as well as maturity? Each stage of growth must evolve, just as each tiny movement of a limb or organ must successfully evolve. So from sperm and egg (which alone has incredible evolutionary requirements) until maturity and death there are (must be) trillions of stages of growth and development, each of which must survive the evolutionary process.

Do you see how impossible that is to grasp. It lends credibility to argument by incredulity.

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It lends no such credibility at all. And you obviously don't understand Evolution 101 if you keep making the same mistakes about evolution time and time again.
What you're basically asking is for every single link in the chain. A request which honestly cannot be granted because the universe and the state of what happens to fossils in the Earth and such like are not perfect.

Warden_of_the_Storm said:

It lends no such credibility at all. And you obviously don't understand Evolution 101 if you keep making the same mistakes about evolution time and time again.
What you're basically asking is for every single link in the chain. A request which honestly cannot be granted because the universe and the state of what happens to fossils in the Earth and such like are not perfect.

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The weight of evidence favors purposeful creation, that gives me license to question evolution.

OldWiseGuy said:

The weight of evidence favors purposeful creation, that gives me license to question evolution.

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No, you say that the weight of evidence favours purposeful creation, and yet you have never once shown any evidence for creation, at all.

OldWiseGuy said:

I want to know how evolution accounts for growth and development, as well as maturity?

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No, you don't. If you really did then you would put in the work required to understand it to the depth you demand. You won't put in that work for yourself, so I am assuredly not going to put in that effort for you, only to have it ignored by you and to have serious answers treated with contempt.

We're done.