The vessels of destruction are predestined by the Almighty: Romans 9.

Alpha-and-Omega

Active Member
May 11, 2019
31
7
54
Il de Paris
✟1,837.00
Country
France
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Romans 9:17-18
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

The above Scripture has served to highlight the fact that God has “hardened” (or predestined) certain key individuals - Who are invariably heads of state, such as Pharaoh etc - to be in Opposition to his divine will.

Ultimately, such individuals will bring tragedy, death and destruction upon their own people and country, which are referred to as “vessels of destruction” in Romans 9:22.

Those heads of state are predestined to bring tragedy upon their people and country by virtue of their resistance to the divine will.

Those nations which are predestined as “vessels of destruction” are prepared for such a purpose by the “hardness” of those who are in power.

Because v.22 has made it clear that those vessels of wrath are “fitted” or “prepared” for destruction.

Consequently, we know that both the Rulers and the respective countries concerned are predestined for that purpose.

Those rulers who are predestined to be “hard” (or defiant) have also caused their respective nations to be “vessels of destruction”.

Discuss.
 

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,425
26,866
Pacific Northwest
✟731,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Don't stop reading at the end of Romans 9, keep reading. Romans 9 doesn't make any sense if you don't bother to read everything Paul wrote before it and everything he writes after it. Romans 9 does not exist in a vacuum.

-CryptoLutheran.
 
Upvote 0

royal priest

debtor to grace
Nov 1, 2015
2,666
2,655
Northeast, USA
✟188,924.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Romans 9:17-18
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

The above Scripture has served to highlight the fact that God has “hardened” (or predestined) certain key individuals - Who are invariably heads of state, such as Pharaoh etc - to be in Opposition to his divine will.

Ultimately, such individuals will bring tragedy, death and destruction upon their own people and country, which are referred to as “vessels of destruction” in Romans 9:22.

Those heads of state are predestined to bring tragedy upon their people and country by virtue of their resistance to the divine will.

Those nations which are predestined as “vessels of destruction” are prepared for such a purpose by the “hardness” of those who are in power.

Because v.22 has made it clear that those vessels of wrath are “fitted” or “prepared” for destruction.

Consequently, we know that both the Rulers and the respective countries concerned are predestined for that purpose.

Those rulers who are predestined to be “hard” (or defiant) have also caused their respective nations to be “vessels of destruction”.

Discuss.
"Destruction" used in this phrase does not refer to what they will do to others, but what God will do to them. God fashions them in such a way that He will destroy them in the end as opposed to those vessels to which God had prepared in order to show mercy. Paul is speaking of those who are saved (shown God's mercy) and those who will not be saved (destroyed by God).
Paul is adopting language used in places like Isaiah 29, and Jeremiah 18.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,813
10,794
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟831,104.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
"Destruction" used in this phrase does not refer to what they will do to others, but what God will do to them. God fashions them in such a way that He will destroy them in the end as opposed to those vessels to which God had prepared in order to show mercy. Paul is speaking of those who are saved (shown God's mercy) and those who will not be saved (destroyed by God).
Paul is adopting language used in places like Isaiah 29, and Jeremiah 18.
I don't believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of reprobation - that God has deliberately created billions of people to spend eternity in hell. It goes right against His nature, and the statement: "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance."

My question is: Regardless of your choice to receive Christ, how do you know that you are actually part of the elect and not predestined for destruction?
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
9,165
3,654
N/A
✟148,927.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Romans 9:17-18
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

The above Scripture has served to highlight the fact that God has “hardened” (or predestined) certain key individuals - Who are invariably heads of state, such as Pharaoh etc - to be in Opposition to his divine will.

Ultimately, such individuals will bring tragedy, death and destruction upon their own people and country, which are referred to as “vessels of destruction” in Romans 9:22.

Those heads of state are predestined to bring tragedy upon their people and country by virtue of their resistance to the divine will.

Those nations which are predestined as “vessels of destruction” are prepared for such a purpose by the “hardness” of those who are in power.

Because v.22 has made it clear that those vessels of wrath are “fitted” or “prepared” for destruction.

Consequently, we know that both the Rulers and the respective countries concerned are predestined for that purpose.

Those rulers who are predestined to be “hard” (or defiant) have also caused their respective nations to be “vessels of destruction”.

Discuss.
Even though Paul uses famous examples from the OT Scriptures to illustrate his point, the context is about common people of Israel (R 9:6).

So, its really about individual predestination of everybody, both leaders and common people.
 
Upvote 0

Alpha-and-Omega

Active Member
May 11, 2019
31
7
54
Il de Paris
✟1,837.00
Country
France
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I don't believe in the Calvinistic doctrine of reprobation - that God has deliberately created billions of people to spend eternity in hell. It goes right against His nature, and the statement: "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance."
Calvinists believe that everything is predestined, but other Christians believe that only certain things are predestined.

But they still believe in predestination, which is a consistent theme in the New Testament: Matthew 25:34, John 6:44, 65, Romans 8:28-30, 9:17, 18, 21, 22, 23 and Revelation 13:8.

If not everything, then at least certain things are predestined, according to the mainstream of Christianity, which is an idea supported by the New Testament.

However, your reference to 2 Peter 3:9 does nothing to invalidate Romans 9:22, whereby it is clearly stated that the vessels of destruction are “prepared” or PREDESTINED.

You have yet to confront Romans 9:22, which clearly says that those vessels of destruction are PREDESTINED.

“Prepared” in the context of v.22 is a precise reference to “predestination”.

No more, no less than predestination; which is according to the plain language of this particular text.

There can be no other interpretation of “preparedness” in the specific context of v.22, except that it is a precise reference to “predestination” only.

Nothing you have said so far can serve to invalidate the reference to “predestination” in v.22.

2 Peter 3:9 does nothing to invalidate the reference to “predestination” in Romans 9:22.

This latter is still a valid Scripture in the New Testament.

But we have yet to address this particular point in Romans 9:22.

This reference to “predestination” needs to be addressed.

My question is: Regardless of your choice to receive Christ, how do you know that you are actually part of the elect and not predestined for destruction?
By definition, God (or Christ) cannot be one of the elect, nor can he be saved from alleged “destruction”.

The resurrection is proof of this: John 11:25, 26.

Last but not least, what you suggest presupposes that “God has no second strike capability”, which is refuted by the “vengeance” of Jesus Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9.

In other words, Jesus’s redemptive work on the Cross is to no avail for those who “disobeyed” the Gospel of Christ and refused to believe in him.

Since they have put their “tribal interests” before their loyalty to Christ (Matthew 10:21, 35, 36) and many will fail the Judgment of Christ precisely for this reason: Matthew 7:13, 14, 22:14.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,813
10,794
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟831,104.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Calvinists believe that everything is predestined, but other Christians believe that only certain things are predestined.

But they still believe in predestination, which is a consistent theme in the New Testament: Matthew 25:34, John 6:44, 65, Romans 8:28-30, 9:17, 18, 21, 22, 23 and Revelation 13:8.

If not everything, then at least certain things are predestined, according to the mainstream of Christianity, which is an idea supported by the New Testament.

However, your reference to 2 Peter 3:9 does nothing to invalidate Romans 9:22, whereby it is clearly stated that the vessels of destruction are “prepared” or PREDESTINED.

You have yet to confront Romans 9:22, which clearly says that those vessels of destruction are PREDESTINED.

“Prepared” in the context of v.22 is a precise reference to “predestination”.

No more, no less than predestination; which is according to the plain language of this particular text.

There can be no other interpretation of “preparedness” in the specific context of v.22, except that it is a precise reference to “predestination” only.

Nothing you have said so far can serve to invalidate the reference to “predestination” in v.22.

2 Peter 3:9 does nothing to invalidate the reference to “predestination” in Romans 9:22.

This latter is still a valid Scripture in the New Testament.

But we have yet to address this particular point in Romans 9:22.

This reference to “predestination” needs to be addressed.


By definition, God (or Christ) cannot be one of the elect, nor can he be saved from alleged “destruction”.

The resurrection is proof of this: John 11:25, 26.

That is my answer.
Jesus said in John 6, "No man can come to Me except the Father draw him", then later in the chapter He said, "Whoever comes to Me, I will in no wise cast out". Jesus spoke of the paradox between the two, and He makes no effect to explain it. It is one of the mysteries of the gospel.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
9,165
3,654
N/A
✟148,927.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Jesus said in John 6, "No man can come to Me except the Father draw him", then later in the chapter He said, "Whoever comes to Me, I will in no wise cast out". Jesus spoke of the paradox between the two, and He makes no effect to explain it. It is one of the mysteries of the gospel.
Why do you think that to say:

- you will get to my room only if my lift man will take you up
- I will cast out nobody who will get to my room

is a paradox or a mystery?
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,813
10,794
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟831,104.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Why do you think that to say:

- you will get to my room only if my lift man will take you up
- I will cast out nobody who will get to my room

is a paradox or a mystery?
Doesn't fit what Jesus said.
 
Upvote 0

Alpha-and-Omega

Active Member
May 11, 2019
31
7
54
Il de Paris
✟1,837.00
Country
France
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Even though Paul uses famous examples from the OT Scriptures to illustrate his point, the context is about common people of Israel (R 9:6).

So, its really about individual predestination of everybody, both leaders and common people.
Assuming you are correct this interpretation is even better than the one I have provided.

Because it is concerned about the individual predestination of everybody, both leaders and common people, alike.

Such a predestination is not the exclusive reserve of the big wigs. Which is great news.

Because it provides a GENERAL FORMULA of individual predestination, which is not exclusive to the leaders in society.

Short of Calvinistic predestination it affects everybody, both leaders and common people alike.

Although it affects everybody, not everything in their lives is predestined, but only certain things have been predestined.

Short of Calvinistic predestination, which asserts that everyone AND everything is predestined.

However, it still provides a GENERAL FORMULA of individual predestination, because it affects everybody, both leaders and common people alike.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: trophy33
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,182
1,808
✟800,884.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Romans 9:17-18
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

The above Scripture has served to highlight the fact that God has “hardened” (or predestined) certain key individuals - Who are invariably heads of state, such as Pharaoh etc - to be in Opposition to his divine will.

Ultimately, such individuals will bring tragedy, death and destruction upon their own people and country, which are referred to as “vessels of destruction” in Romans 9:22.

Those heads of state are predestined to bring tragedy upon their people and country by virtue of their resistance to the divine will.

Those nations which are predestined as “vessels of destruction” are prepared for such a purpose by the “hardness” of those who are in power.

Because v.22 has made it clear that those vessels of wrath are “fitted” or “prepared” for destruction.

Consequently, we know that both the Rulers and the respective countries concerned are predestined for that purpose.

Those rulers who are predestined to be “hard” (or defiant) have also caused their respective nations to be “vessels of destruction”.

Discuss.
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.



The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!



This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).



Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?



If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?



This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.



Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”



Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?



Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?



Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?



Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?



The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).



How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.



Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.



Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!



The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.



If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
Upvote 0

1213

Disciple of Jesus
Jul 14, 2011
3,661
1,117
Visit site
✟146,199.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Romans 9:17-18
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.” 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

The above Scripture has served to highlight the fact that God has “hardened” (or predestined) ....

I think ”hardened” doesn’t mean person is predestined, or forced to do something evil. For example, in the case of pharaoh. If we look how pharaohs heart was hardened, it happened by ending plagues. Pharaoh didn’t want to do what is right. But when God sent the plagues, pharaoh’s heart was softened and he was willing to do what is right. But right after the plague ended, pharaoh’s heart hardened again. I think that is good example of the hardening. Reason why person does evil things is his own will and evil mind, nothing else. But persons actions can change depending on the situation.
 
Upvote 0