The single biggest problem with the education system.

jayem

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I don't see a conflict between the two teaching methods, although teachers make either one 'brain teasers'.

The humanities are different disciplines than math and the hard sciences. They must be taught differently. A math teacher can correctly tell students that the quadratic formula is the most convenient way to solve a quadratic equation. It's not correct for an English lit teacher to tell students that J.K. Rowling is the greatest British writer of all time.

At the end of the day school is suppose to prepare us to be productive workers.

That's part of it. But there's more to education than career training. Like turning out well-rounded, well-informed, knowledgeable, and judicious citizens.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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That's part of it. But there's more to education than career training. Like turning out well-rounded, well-informed, knowledgeable, and judicious citizens.

Based on this how would you rate the system at this time?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Depends on where you live. I’ll give my school district a B.

I meant as a national system, based on the formal education- based knowledge of the people as evidenced in the common affairs of society.
 
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jayem

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I meant as a national system, based on the formal education- based knowledge of the people as evidenced in the common affairs of society.

But we don't have a national school system. Public schools are municipal endeavors, and the quality varies widely. Besides, judging schools by how adults behave years after leaving them is of very dubious validity. But...having some time on my hands waiting for my wife to get her hair done...I found some 2017 data comparing American students' performance in science, reading, and math with that of students in other countries. Which is a much better indicator of national educational achievement. We're behind other advanced nations, especially in Asia. But in general, we're in the middle of the pack.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students-internationally-math-science

So...average achievement gets a C. But after seeing this, I'm gonna raise my district's grade to A minus. Our high school always makes the US News & World Report's list of the the best public high schools in the country. Over 90% of graduates go on to college. And our students always score in the top 10 statewide on standardized tests for reading and math skills. But that's typical for school districts in affluent areas. And I pay taxes accordingly.
 
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JackRT

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But we don't have a national school system. Public schools are municipal endeavors, and the quality varies widely. Besides, judging schools by how adults behave years after leaving them is of very dubious validity. But...having some time on my hands waiting for my wife to get her hair done...I found some 2017 data comparing American students' performance in science, reading, and math with that of students in other countries. Which is a much better indicator of national educational achievement. We're behind other advanced nations, especially in Asia. But in general, we're in the middle of the pack.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students-internationally-math-science

So...average achievement gets a C. But after seeing this, I'm gonna raise my district's grade to A minus. Our high school always makes the US News & World Report's list of the the best public high schools in the country. Over 90% of graduates go on to college. And our students always score in the top 10 statewide on standardized tests for reading and math skills. But that's typical for school districts in affluent areas. And I pay taxes accordingly.

You are quite right. The USA has both some of the best schools in the world and some that are third world standard.
 
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keith99

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Comply with the system or rebel. But you better be smart enough if working outside the system. Education in not memorization but learning to think for oneself. Most of the true talent works and succeeds outside the system, but the system rewards those drones who bow to the norm and tries to punish free thinkers. Education stopped promoting free thinking 75 years ago.

I'm old, but not that old. Both my undergrad and grad school encouraged free thinking. Come to think of it so did several of my high school teachers.
 
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jayem

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You are quite right. The USA has both some of the best schools in the world and some that are third world standard.

And I agree 100% with your comment about parental involvement. I'm sure most parents care about their children's education. But they're stressed themselves. Many parents work long hours. Many are struggling single parents who lack time and energy to fully engage in their kid's school activities. It's likely that many are poorly educated themselves, and may be intimidated by getting involved with schools and teachers. But when parents make it clear to their children that they expect academic achievement--and they make it clear to their schools that they expect a quality education to be delivered--then that's more than half the battle.
 
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I'm old, but not that old. Both my undergrad and grad school encouraged free thinking. Come to think of it so did several of my high school teachers.

I'm working on a degree in aerospace engineering right now. Free thinking is definitely encouraged, so long as it's sound thinking. Most of the time it is, on account of how you really can't get into the school much less the department without being a sound thinker.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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But we don't have a national school system. Public schools are municipal endeavors, and the quality varies widely. Besides, judging schools by how adults behave years after leaving them is of very dubious validity. But...having some time on my hands waiting for my wife to get her hair done...I found some 2017 data comparing American students' performance in science, reading, and math with that of students in other countries. Which is a much better indicator of national educational achievement. We're behind other advanced nations, especially in Asia. But in general, we're in the middle of the pack.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/02/15/u-s-students-internationally-math-science

So...average achievement gets a C. But after seeing this, I'm gonna raise my district's grade to A minus. Our high school always makes the US News & World Report's list of the the best public high schools in the country. Over 90% of graduates go on to college. And our students always score in the top 10 statewide on standardized tests for reading and math skills. But that's typical for school districts in affluent areas. And I pay taxes accordingly.

Actually what I meant was what is the effect our schooling down the road. Let's track each generation after they leave school, whether high school or college. What becomes of them after that? Did they receive the knowledge needed to be successful as a person, a spouse, a parent, an employee, a boss, and as a citizen?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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JackRT

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It seem not much ever changes.

Socrates (died 399BC) wrote "Our youth now love luxury, they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders, and love to chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their household. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."
 
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OldWiseGuy

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It seem not much ever changes.

Socrates (died 399BC) wrote "Our youth now love luxury, they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders, and love to chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their household. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."

"Why can't they be like we were,
Perfect in every way,
What'sa matter with kids these daaaaaaays."

Song from "Bye Bye Birdie".
 
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keith99

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I think something I saw a couple of years ago sheds some light on the somewhat unique problems with American education. I looked up the best colleges in both America and the world. Of course results can vary. But one company did ranking for both and their latest rankings (the world ones were for a year earlier, which makes some sense as it is a larger task and delays are likely).

One thing stood out and stuck in my memory because it involved the only school I ever got a rejection letter from. In the U.S. rankings Cal Tech was about 8th. In the world ranking they were tied for 3rd with Stanford which was number 1 in the U.S. rankings. I strongly suspect this is because the graduation rate plays a big part in the U.S. rankings and probably not in international rankings.

Simply put Cal Tech is so difficult that many 'flunk out' which in their case often means transferring to a school many would be ecstatic to get into. When graduation/promotion rates are a part of the measure of a school, college, high school or anything else there is a very real risk that in time actual education will suffer. If it is an important part it is almost sure that eventually education will suffer significantly. Today in some situations graduation/promotion rates are the single most looked at measure. It is no surprise that actual education suffers.
 
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I think something I saw a couple of years ago sheds some light on the somewhat unique problems with American education. I looked up the best colleges in both America and the world. Of course results can vary. But one company did ranking for both and their latest rankings (the world ones were for a year earlier, which makes some sense as it is a larger task and delays are likely).

One thing stood out and stuck in my memory because it involved the only school I ever got a rejection letter from. In the U.S. rankings Cal Tech was about 8th. In the world ranking they were tied for 3rd with Stanford which was number 1 in the U.S. rankings. I strongly suspect this is because the graduation rate plays a big part in the U.S. rankings and probably not in international rankings.

Simply put Cal Tech is so difficult that many 'flunk out' which in their case often means transferring to a school many would be ecstatic to get into. When graduation/promotion rates are a part of the measure of a school, college, high school or anything else there is a very real risk that in time actual education will suffer. If it is an important part it is almost sure that eventually education will suffer significantly. Today in some situations graduation/promotion rates are the single most looked at measure. It is no surprise that actual education suffers.

Some of the rankings only look at the 4 year graduation rate, not the 6 year graduation rate. CA Tech, GA Tech are going to have lower 4 yr graduation rates on account of having far more folks majoring in degrees that take a whole heck of a lot longer than say majoring in music or communications. At schools like Stanford well obviously everybody who goes there is extremely smart but some are going to finish their degrees much slower not on account of the major they pick. The overall graduation rate is going to be higher on account of how there's more of a range of majors than at Cal Tech.
 
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jayem

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Actually what I meant was what is the effect our schooling down the road. Let's track each generation after they leave school, whether high school or college. What becomes of them after that? Did they receive the knowledge needed to be successful as a person, a spouse, a parent, an employee, a boss, and as a citizen?

But how can the a person's education be separated from all the other factors which affect his success or failure later in life? Any valid study must control all confounding variables. I don't see how what you propose is possible.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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But how can the a person's education be separated from all the other factors which affect his success or failure later in life? Any valid study must control all confounding variables. I don't see how what you propose is possible.

The 'other factors' are well known. They should be addressed in the educational system. In fact it's the only place they can be addressed.
 
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keith99

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The 'other factors' are well known. They should be addressed in the educational system. In fact it's the only place they can be addressed.

No absolutely not. That is a huge part of the problem. It came into focus for me when a local paper published a mea culpa letter from a retired teacher. Boiled down it said:

We told you that we knew best, that we could raise your children without your help.

We were wrong.
 
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bekkilyn

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Education is meant be a collaborative effort of teachers, parents, school staff, and the child. What I've seen is that the responsibility is primarily given to the teacher, who also is made to be responsible for MANY other things besides actual education when it comes to managing a classroom and dealing with unruly behavior, sick kids who shouldn't be in school, being called into meetings that aren't always even about their own students, being forced to use their class prep time to substitute for other teachers who are absent (or to attend these meetings), needing to buy school supplies with their own money, and even more lately, become armed security officers. Where it the time to actually educate a child (or more often a classroom of 40 or more students all with different needs) when the time is taken up by all of these other things because the teacher is expected to not only the job of teaching, but also all of these other roles and pick up the slack for the parents, staff, and children who refuse to participate in their own education for various reasons?

No wonder only one in five teachers make it past five years before moving on to other careers.
 
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