The Loaded Question (Philippians 2:13)

Works of my flesh -

  • Will save me

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Are required in tandem with Christ to Save me

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • Are Skubala (Trash)

    Votes: 10 71.4%
  • Aren’t the best, but I don’t fornicate

    Votes: 2 14.3%
  • Make me better off than unbelievers

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Are not as bad as a Serial Killer’s

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    14

Phil W

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It is quite true that the Bible teaches that total obedience is the standard, but do you know anyone who has achieved it?
It has been handed to us on a plate!
God, by Christ Jesus, has allowed us to be rid of the old man who was centered on the affections of the flesh and be reborn of His seed.
Seed that cannot bear evil fruit.
 
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Ok, apply that meaning to Luke 7:29, "all the people that heard him, and the tax collectors, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John." We then have people declaring God not guilty. Blasphemy is an understatement.

I am sure if you grab a 15th century dictionary, you would not find such a meaning for justified.
Oxford Dictionary meaning:
Theology
Declare or make righteous in the sight of God.

‘one of the elect, justified by faith’

Here is the verse you quoted in context:

"Jesus Testifies about John
…28I tell you, among those born of women there is no one greater than John, yet even the least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” 29All the people who heard this, even the tax collectors, acknowledged God’s justice. For they had received the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John".

It is always good for credibility to quote verses in context and then you get the full and accurate meaning.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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It has been handed to us on a plate!
God, by Christ Jesus, has allowed us to be rid of the old man who was centered on the affections of the flesh and be reborn of His seed.
Seed that cannot bear evil fruit.
In other words: sinless perfection as taught by Arminians and Wesleyan Methodists.
 
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I have read..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
My "flesh" was killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:5-7)


Ever met someone from the "progressive sanctification" camp that ever got totally sanctified?


You are mostly right, as the battle for our souls never lets up.
But we "should" be in the drivers seat in every such battle.
We have been given everything we need, by God, to win all the battles.
Like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
So, what is the alternative? Receiving "entire sanctification" through receiving the "second blessing" as understood by Arminian Wesleyan Methodists?

A couple of years ago, a guy on CF maintained that he had not sinned for the last 30 years! He was shot down in flames as I remember.
 
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def

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You are mostly right, as the battle for our souls never lets up.
But we "should" be in the drivers seat in every such battle.
We have been given everything we need, by God, to win all the battles.
Like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

The temptation bit is interesting, should point that out to the Pope, and keep the Lord's Prayer as it is.
 
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No, it clearly says, and I quote, "God who justifies the wicked"
In support of our post: here is the Scripture in context:

"Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:4-6).
 
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TheSeabass

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One is not snatched from God's hand, but one can remove himself from God's hand by quit hearing and following Christ, John 10:27-28.

From Acts 15 and 2 Peter 2, we have proof that Christians can fall away (go out from us) and become false teachers. Again, John did NOT say ALL who go out from us was not of us, but John said "they" (speaking about specific individuals) were not of us. So no one cannot take what John said and try and make universal application of it.

I do not see the word "never" in 1 John 2:19 and why the need for the command to admonish Christians to continue to let the word of God dwell in them if it were impossible ofr it not to dwell in the Christian in 1 John 2:24? The command implies the Christian can let the word of God slip from him and become lost, no longer dwelling in Christ.
 
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TheSeabass

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I don't know - picking these verses out in defense of the idea that YOU are credited for a part of your salvation seems like it goes against Paul's claim that says God's free gift of grace leaves us unable to boast.

Ephesians 2:4-9 ~ But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith,
and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.

Acts of the Apostles 2 (more in context) says this. Notice what they're being saved FROM:


Acts 2:36-40 ~ Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

Three Thousand Believe

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

With many other words he testified, and he urged them, “Be saved
from this corrupt generation.

1 Timothy 4:16 in context says: A Good Minister of Jesus Christ
(
Leviticus 21:1-17) v 14-16 ~ Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given you through the prophecy spoken over you at the laying on of the hands of the elders. Be diligent in these matters and absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. Pay close attention to your life and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by so doing you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

(I don't see that as an issue of salvation, but of sanctification. Also - this is believed to have been written around 56 A.D.....and following the "right" group and sound teaching was a matter of physical life and death [besides spiritual] with the impending destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 7 expanded to include 2 Corinthians 6:16-18 for context:
What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.” “Therefore come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” And: “I will be a Father to you, and you will be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”

2 Corinthians 7:1 ~ Therefore, beloved, since we have these promises, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that defiles body and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
I also see that as a response to His gift - our sanctification process that flows from our belief.


I don't see that as any different than what I had posted here (with the exception that you're claiming cooperation in your SALVATION). I don't believe we cooperated in our salvation - He alone defeated sin:

God saves. The issue is WHO does He save and WHY?

The "who" that God saves is anyone and the "why" is obedience. God will save anyone who will faithfully obey His word. So those in Acts 2 that faithfully obeyed God's command to repent and be baptized are the ones God saves. Since God does not force people to repent and be baptized but they chose of their free will to do so, in that sense Peter is saying to them 'save yourselves' by obeying God's command.

Much like a person who is drowning and someone throws a life preserver and yells to the drowning person "grab hold of the preserver and save yourself". And by grabbing hold he does have a role in his own salvation. It took BOTH the preserver to be thrown to him AND him grabbing hold of it to be saved.

In similar manner, God threw a life preserver in the form of Jesus Christ to men drowning in sin. God says obey Christ and be saved (Hebrew 5:9) and those that do in that sense save themselves.

Salvation is not 100% God doing everything....in randomly, unconditionally choosing which certain individuals will or will not be saved, forcing certain men to grab the life preserver (force men to repent and be baptized), etc. God has provided the means to be saved (repent and be baptized) but is still up to man to take advantage of what God has provided by obeying what God command. If a man sits idle then he is bypassing, forsaking the only means God has given him for him to be saved.

So the verses that say "save yourselves" "save thyself" and "cleansed ourselves", etc show that men are to grab hold of that preserver (Jesus Christ) and be saved.

Doing nothing leaves one lost, drowning in sin.

Obedience to God is nothing to boast about..."So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

Man has a DUTY to obey God but man will not be sinlessly perfect in his obedience leaving man an unprofitable servant in need of grace. Yet those who do their duty and obey God, and repent for those times they come up short are the ones who receive grace. Those who do nothing, do not obey are derelict in their duty. Luke 13:24 the word 'strive' means to agonize over, contend, struggle with great difficulty to enter the strait gate by doing all one can to do his duty in obeying God's will. Doing nothing/not obeying what God has commanded will keep one from entering thru the strait gate.

. Persevere in these things, for by so doing you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16

You posted "I don't see that as an issue of salvation, but of sanctification"

Again, Paul said to Timothy "SAVE thyself" not "sanctify thyself"
 
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bcbsr

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One is not snatched from God's hand, but one can remove himself from God's hand by quit hearing and following Christ, John 10:27-28.

From Acts 15 and 2 Peter 2, we have proof that Christians can fall away (go out from us) and become false teachers. Again, John did NOT say ALL who go out from us was not of us, but John said "they" (speaking about specific individuals) were not of us. So no one cannot take what John said and try and make universal application of it.

I do not see the word "never" in 1 John 2:19 and why the need for the command to admonish Christians to continue to let the word of God dwell in them if it were impossible ofr it not to dwell in the Christian in 1 John 2:24? The command implies the Christian can let the word of God slip from him and become lost, no longer dwelling in Christ.
Of Acts 15 Paul says, "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4 So they weren't true brothers who became false brothers. Rather they infiltrated the ranks of the Christians community as false brothers. (In fact Paul indicates they were among the leadership at the church at Jerusalem)

As for 2Peter 2 it's again talking about the unregenerate, false brethren. Notice he says, "Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2Peter 2:22 In contrast "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" Furthermore the word "know" in 2Peter 2:20,21 is not relational knowing (gnosis), but rather informational knowledge, knowing about something (epignosis) ("epi" refers to "surface" they were only "Christians" on the surface)

As for 1John 2:19 you seem to not embrace the implications of the phrase
"if they had been of us, they would have remained with us". Might want to think that through the logic of that if/then statement.
 
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bcbsr

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God saves. The issue is WHO does He save and WHY?

The "who" that God saves is anyone and the "why" is obedience. God will save anyone who will faithfully obey His word.
I see, what you're saying is that a person has to do works to be qualified to be saved. You're saying salvation is contingent up works, which in other words is "salvation by works".

This as opposed to trusting in God as it says, "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5

Your argument kind of reminds me of that of the unbelieving Jews. "I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Rom 10

To attain the righteousness from God one must abandon the notion of qualifying to be saved by his works, and in place of that trusting Christ to save you.
 
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TheSeabass

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No, it clearly says, and I quote, "God who justifies the wicked"
Exodus 23:7 "Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked."

Romans 4:5 "justifieth the ungodly" would not contradict Exodus 23:7 "I will NOT justify the ungodly".

David and Abraham were ungodly men, neither were perfectly sinless but God justified them. Why? Both had a faithful obedience. So God justifies wicked men who turn to God in obedience....men are wicked until they faithfully obey God. There is no instance of God justifying wicked men who remain impenitently wicked.
 
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TheSeabass

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Of Acts 15 Paul says, "This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." Gal 2:4 So they weren't true brothers who became false brothers. Rather they infiltrated the ranks of the Christians community as false brothers. (In fact Paul indicates they were among the leadership at the church at Jerusalem)

YOU ADDED the idea "they weren't true brothers". That idea is not in the context. These false teaching brethren "believed" (Acts of the apostles 15:5) and "went out from us" meaning they were of the church but went out from the church at Jerusalem teaching false ideas not sanctioned by the Apostles.

Acts of the Apostles 18:24-26 it is possible that a Christian can teach error, until instructed accurately.


bcbsr said:
As for 2Peter 2 it's again talking about the unregenerate, false brethren. Notice he says, "Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." 2Peter 2:22 In contrast "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!" Furthermore the word "know" in 2Peter 2:20,21 is not relational knowing (gnosis), but rather informational knowledge, knowing about something (epignosis) ("epi" refers to "surface" they were only "Christians" on the surface)

2 Peter 2:1 speaks of those who had been "bought" ie, redeemed, that had been cleansed of their sins but now as a dog that are eating that vomit which represents sin and corruption, putting sin and corruption back into themselves after they had been cleansed, redeemed. The proverb makes no sense if they had always been lost.


bcbsr said:
As for 1John 2:19 you seem to not embrace the implications of the phrase
bcbsr said:
"if they had been of us, they would have remained with us". Might want to think that through the logic of that if/then statement.

Again, why the command/admonition in verse 24 if it is not possible for a Christian to become lost?

John did not say they were "never" of us" but they were not of us when they went out. It may have been these people had been faithful but was not careful to let God's word dwell in them (hence the warning to other Christians in verse 24) and then at some point in the past they stopped being of us and they continued not being of up until the time they went out from us.

Lastly, John is speaking about specific individuals "they", so universal application and assumptions cannot be made.
 
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TheSeabass

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I see, what you're saying is that a person has to do works to be qualified to be saved. You're saying salvation is contingent up works, which in other words is "salvation by works".

This as opposed to trusting in God as it says, "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:5[

In CONTEXT of Romans chapters 1 - 4 the only work in this context that Paul says will not justify is the work required by the law of Moses in keeping the law perfectly sinless in order to be justified. In Romans chapters 1 and 2 Paul proves both Gentile and Jew are sinners, under sin therefore in need of justification. Beginning Romans 3 Paul says the Jew had an advantage over the Gentile in that the Jews were given their own law. But that OT law of Moses could not justify. But at the of Romans 3 verse 28 Paul shows faith justifies. In Romans 4 Paul gives the example of a Gentile (Abraham) and Jew (David) both ungodly men, sinners, in need of justification. In Romans 4:5 as in Romans 3, Paul shows neither man was justified by the OT law that required the work of flawless law keeping but both justified by faith. Romans 4:5 is a rehash of Romans 3 showing works required by the OT law cannot justify but faith can justify.

Nowhere in Romans 1-4 did Paul eliminate faithful obedience from how one is justified. In fact in Romans 6:16-17 Paul clearly shows "obedience unto righteousness" and one "obeys from the heart" then id freed from sin/justified.


bcbsr said:
Your argument kind of reminds me of that of the unbelieving Jews. "I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that is by faith says: ... That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Rom 10

To attain the righteousness from God one must abandon the notion of qualifying to be saved by his works, and in place of that trusting Christ to save you.

I have used Romans 10:3 on this forum more than once to expose those who oppose the Bible requiring obedience in order for man to be saved.

There are TWO DIFFERENT works mentioned in Romans 10:3, one work that does NOT save and one work that DOES save:

1) establish their OWN righteous
2) submit to God's righteousness

Those Jews were lost for they were doing the work of following their own righteousness, following their own traditions. They could have been saved if they submitted/obeyed God's righteousness in believing and confessing, obeying the gospel verse 16. So in one verse we have 2 different works, one work that does not save and one that does proving that all works are not alike and NO VERSE eliminates all works or all kinds from being saved.
 
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def

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In support of our post: here is the Scripture in context:

"Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. And David speaks likewise of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:4-6).
Check other Bibles, some state that 'his faith is counted for righteousness' NOT 'credited as righteousness'. Can anybody see a difference between 'counted for' and 'credited as'?
 
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bcbsr

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Exodus 23:7 "Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked."

Romans 4:5 "justifieth the ungodly" would not contradict Exodus 23:7 "I will NOT justify the ungodly".

David and Abraham were ungodly men, neither were perfectly sinless but God justified them. Why? Both had a faithful obedience. So God justifies wicked men who turn to God in obedience....men are wicked until they faithfully obey God. There is no instance of God justifying wicked men who remain impenitently wicked.
Thanks for providing yet another example of Salvation-by-Works Christians misconstruing scripture, in this case by confusing Old Covenant with New.
 
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YOU ADDED the idea "they weren't true brothers". That idea is not in the context. These false teaching brethren "believed" (Acts of the apostles 15:5) and "went out from us" meaning they were of the church but went out from the church at Jerusalem teaching false ideas not sanctioned by the Apostles.
Oh, so what you're saying is that Paul was mistaken in calling them "false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves." While they outwardly identified themselves as "believers" (Luke was simply recording their outward identification), in reality they were false brethren. What does Paul indicate about when they became false brothers. It's not when they "went out". It's when they "had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.", so it's when they went in.
John did not say they were "never" of us" but they were not of us when they went out.
As expected you didn't bother reading the middle phrase even though I pointed it out
"if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us"

But of course Salvation-by-Works Christians must read their salvation by works soteriology into scripture.
 
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