The Loaded Question (Philippians 2:13)

childeye 2 · Jun 8, 2019

Alithis said:
Try and get saved without faith
Try and have Faith without
action ... Can't.
For by grace are you saved through faith

Its grace AND the obedience of faith.
The action ...?
Repent
The action?
Be baptised for the remission if sin
The action?
Recieve the PROMISED Holy spirit
The action ?
Learn to walk in this New life in Christ obeying him .
The action?
Get to know his voice and follow him ..
The action..put off the old man and out on Christ
.it goes on and on in obedience untill you reciece tge final outcone of your obrdient action ..of your faith..
The salvation of your souls

Which Peters says we get.. WHEN HE RETURNS....
In the mean time we live in the promise of it.
But then we will recieve it...

Salvation is a journying process..
A straight and narrow road to be travelled and endured to its end.
The oppisite of instant gratification the flesh desires.

I Do desire that more people would spend more time obeying Jesus and Go out to work in the harvest to get people on the road of salvation and less time debating theory while sitting disobediently

I think I hear what you're saying. For me, it's difficult working in the harvest with two opposing Gospels working the same field. To some Jesus is about getting a second chance to do what's right, and to others Jesus is about fixing what was wrong in the first place. I suspect and hope you are of the latter.

TheSeabass · Jun 8, 2019

-57 said:
Why would a true believer..saved by the blood of Christ..become unbelieving?

One reason is their faith was not strong to begin with, Matthew 13:21.

Life changing devastations.

TheSeabass · Jun 8, 2019

-57 said:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

1) If "they" were NEVER of us, then all this verse proves is that one who was never saved...was never saved. It still does not prove that it is impossible for the Christian to become lost.

2) The pronoun "they" specifically refers to those individuals John was talking about. "They" therefore cannot be applied universally to anyone and everyone. 2 Peter 2 shows that Christians (those who have been "bought) can fall away,even becoming false teachers.

3) if it is impossible for a Christian to fall away, then why did John gives this admonition in verse 24? "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." This command would be useless and senseless if it were impossible for the word to NOT dwell in the Christian whereby the Christian then would not dwell in the Son.

4) John did not use the word "never" in 1 John 2:19. All John said was they were not of us at the time they went out from us. It may have been these people had been faithful Christians many years with God's word dwelling in them but at some point they did not allow God's word to dwell in them being deceived by the Gnostic's false teachings. Then they quit being of us and they continued to not be us at the time they went out from us. Therefore we get this command, warning in 2 John 2:24 to let the word dwell in you.

In Acts 15 there were false teachers claiming that the Gentiles could not be saved unless they be circumcised, and the Apostles met with the Church in Jerusalem to discuss this matter, Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2. We see in verse 24 that these false teachers with their false message came from among the Christians/church in Jerusalem and went out from them…"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"

TheSeabass · Jun 8, 2019

Grip Docility said:
That's not what they mean. They mean that once the Father Draws a person that has responded into TRUE BELIEF... they may slip up and get mad at God, succumb to doubt from time to time, or fail at whatever point that is a human frailty... but God will look to their heart and see why their flesh is failing, lift them up and guide them.

Basically... this...

Footprints in the Sand
Footprints in the Sand, a beautiful poem!

One night I dreamed a dream.
As I was walking along the beach with my Lord.
Across the dark sky flashed scenes from my life.
For each scene, I noticed two sets of footprints in the sand,
One belonging to me and one to my Lord.

After the last scene of my life flashed before me,
I looked back at the footprints in the sand.
I noticed that at many times along the path of my life,
especially at the very lowest and saddest times,
there was only one set of footprints.

This really troubled me, so I asked the Lord about it.
"Lord, you said once I decided to follow you,
You'd walk with me all the way.
But I noticed that during the saddest and most troublesome times of my life,
there was only one set of footprints.
I don't understand why, when I needed You the most, You would leave me."

He whispered, "My precious child, I love you and will never leave you
Never, ever, during your trials and testings.
When you saw only one set of footprints,
It was then that I carried you."

So you agree with poster "-57" the Christian can become unfaithful and die unfaithful and still be saved?

Grip Docility · Jun 8, 2019

TheSeabass said:
So you agree with poster "-57" the Christian can become unfaithful and die unfaithful and still be saved?

This is, ironically, a loaded question.

I cannot polarize an answer, because only God knows the heart. My previous post was my personal take on the matter.

I think, Faith, Hope and Love, rooted in mercy are the lens we should look through...

But to answer your question without a doubt, would be arrogant on my part... towards either direction of the answer.

I will say there is hope where we don’t understand. I can say no more.

If you’re asking if I believe in “individual election”, in a round about way... I do not.

TheSeabass · Jun 8, 2019

Grip Docility said:
This is, ironically, a loaded question.

I cannot polarize an answer, because only God knows the heart. My previous post was my personal take on the matter.

I think, Faith, Hope and Love, rooted in mercy are the lens we should look through...

But to answer your question without a doubt, would be arrogant on my part... towards either direction of the answer.

I will say there is hope where we don’t understand. I can say no more.

If you’re asking if I believe in “individual election”, in a round about way... I do not.

How can it be a loaded question when the Bible says the faithless/unbelieving will be lost, Revelation 21:8? Therefore the command to be faithful unto death.

Grip Docility · Jun 8, 2019

TheSeabass said:
How can it be a loaded question when the Bible says the faithless/unbelieving will be lost, Revelation 21:8? Therefore the command to be faithful unto death.

I am very careful to identify that verses meaning. This is in no way geared towards you.... I am explaining why... : Legalists love to use this verse to reinstate the system Christ brought down In His Flesh.

True Unbelief as in "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit"... is a sin unto death. The sin of the world is indeed unbelief.... but that is not "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Unbelief".

Again... I am now drawing from scripture to not polarize my answer to your question...

Romans 10:6-8

I extend grace on this verse, as our binding to Him, becomes superseded by His Grasping of us. If you're asking if a person can outright disown God... I have to truthfully answer "yes".

But as Scripture says... 1 John 2:19

There will be this... (Revelation 22:18)... which is reference to this... (Revelation 20:11-14)

And I believe has to do with this... (Joel 2:12)... which involves this... (Romans 11:12)

I know you want a yes or no... but I'm giving you an (I don't know)... but recognize His ways are so more Rich and Full in Mercy than our ways. So again... I maintain Faith, Hope and Love.... Rooted in Mercy.

-57 · Jun 8, 2019

TheSeabass said:
One reason is their faith was not strong to begin with, Matthew 13:21.

Life changing devastations.

So, your God didn't give them enough faith?

-57 · Jun 8, 2019

TheSeabass said:
1) If "they" were NEVER of us, then all this verse proves is that one who was never saved...was never saved. It still does not prove that it is impossible for the Christian to become lost.

The bible proves it...you can't be snatched.

TheSeabass said:

2) The pronoun "they" specifically refers to those individuals John was talking about. "They" therefore cannot be applied universally to anyone and everyone. 2 Peter 2 shows that Christians (those who have been "bought) can fall away,even becoming false teachers.

Click to expand...

You're still saying fall away equals loss of salvation and have never biblically demonstrated that to be true.

TheSeabass said:

3) if it is impossible for a Christian to fall away, then why did John gives this admonition in verse 24? "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." This command would be useless and senseless if it were impossible for the word to NOT dwell in the Christian whereby the Christian then would not dwell in the Son.

Click to expand...

Meaning the word of God...

TheSeabass said:

4) John did not use the word "never" in 1 John 2:19. All John said was they were not of us at the time they went out from us. It may have been these people had been faithful Christians many years with God's word dwelling in them but at some point they did not allow God's word to dwell in them being deceived by the Gnostic's false teachings. Then they quit being of us and they continued to not be us at the time they went out from us. Therefore we get this command, warning in 2 John 2:24 to let the word dwell in you.

Click to expand...

Your speculation is not part of the bible. Only speculation..more biblical gymnastics.

TheSeabass said:

In Acts 15 there were false teachers claiming that the Gentiles could not be saved unless they be circumcised, and the Apostles met with the Church in Jerusalem to discuss this matter, Acts of the Apostles 15:1-2. We see in verse 24 that these false teachers with their false message came from among the Christians/church in Jerusalem and went out from them…"Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"

Click to expand...

No mention of loss of salvation.

mkgal1 · Jun 8, 2019

TheSeabass said:
Acts of the Apostles 2:40 save yourselves
1 Tim 4:16 save thyself
2 Corinthians 7:1 cleanse ourselves

I don't know - picking these verses out in defense of the idea that YOU are credited for a part of your salvation seems like it goes against Paul's claim that says God's free gift of grace leaves us unable to boast.

Ephesians 2:4-9 ~ But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.

Acts of the Apostles 2 (more in context) says this. Notice what they're being saved FROM:

Acts 2:36-40 ~ Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”

Three Thousand Believe

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

With many other words he testified, and he urged them, “Be saved from this corrupt generation.

1 Timothy 4:16 in context says: A Good Minister of Jesus Christ
(Leviticus 21:1-17) v 14-16 ~ Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given you through the prophecy spoken over you at the laying on of the hands of the elders. Be diligent in these matters and absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all. Pay close attention to your life and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by so doing you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

(I don't see that as an issue of salvation, but of sanctification. Also - this is believed to have been written around 56 A.D.....and following the "right" group and sound teaching was a matter of physical life and death [besides spiritual] with the impending destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 7 expanded to include 2 Corinthians 6:16-18 for context:
What agreement can exist between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be My people.” “Therefore come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.” And: “I will be a Father to you, and you will be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”

2 Corinthians 7:1 ~ Therefore, beloved, since we have these promises, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that defiles body and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

I also see that as a response to His gift - our sanctification process that flows from our belief.

TheSeabass said:
Man does have a role in in his own salvation. Christ dying on the cross provided a path to salvation for man, it is up to man to take that path by obeying Christ, Hebrews 5:9 and those that obey Christ's words are in that sense 'saving themselves'.

I don't see that as any different than what I had posted here (with the exception that you're claiming cooperation in your SALVATION). I don't believe we cooperated in our salvation - He alone defeated sin:

mkgal said:
I think that's more about "sanctification" not really "salvation" (He saved us through His work on the cross - but we join with Him in our sanctification). I absolutely agree that our cooperation is necessary for the "completed work", though

Alithis · Jun 8, 2019

bcbsr said:
So what you're saying is that you view yourself as on the path to salvation but that you haven't arrived yet. I agree you have a ways to go in your thinking, and you haven't got there yet.

I on the other hand have already arrived. I have been saved. I have eternal life, like Jesus said, "He who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24 Apparently you haven't really heard Him yet on the matter.

But I wish you well on your journey to be saved, while I can experienced joy and peace of having been saved.

You have the same as i have.
The Promise... And since it is God who has promised that is as good as having it.

But im not saying anything scriptures does not say..
If you believe and do not doubt in your heart you shall have it...
And
When he comes you recieve the salvation of your souls...
He comes to judge...
When he comes Jesus will save you from that judgment if you are In him..

I noted you extracted some sentances from my over all post and did not address the central point of my post.
Im only stating scripture...
It IS the account of Noah...
Its written for our admonish ment and unstruction in righteousness..

How can you tell a righteous man apart from a sinful man
A righteous man does what is righteous
A sinful man does what is sinful.

Methinks in this quoted post you have plucked out part of what i have said (across a few posts)and misrepresented it.and that is very dissapointing in its apparant dishonesty.
Did Noah get saved by sitting saying thanks God i believe you?
Or.. By taking obedient action because he believed...

You KNOW the clear unambiguous answer.
And you KNOW when.paul used the word works he us speaking of observance of the law by which no one can be justifies .since it was given to prove guilt.not produce righteousness.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 8, 2019

Alithis said:
he that dwells within me and is greater then he that is in the world ?

That's true, but the question (not to be avoided): Do you do what is right all the time without exception? This has all to do what you do in reality in your life and your relationships with others.

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 8, 2019

def said:
Where does the Bible say that justified means to be forgiven of sin? A given meaning will lead one to a particular view of the gospel. Starting with an assumed meaning is a sure way to chaos.

You may need to consult a dictionary to know the meaning of the word "justified". In my dictionary it means to be declared "not guilty".

Presbyterian Continuist · Jun 8, 2019

Grip Docility said:
Dude! How in the Sheol did you get that idea, from me?!?!?!?!?!?!?

You keep throwing poles at me.

North (Sinless)

South (Glory’s in sin)

I’m a Saved sinner till death.
I’m only saved by Jesus.
My being a saint has to do with HIS flesh, before the Father, like Jacob dresses as Esau, before his father to receive the birthright.

I’m the terminally Godless.
He’s the good Physician.

We await death to receive our inheritance.

The Maggot destined bodies (our Works) produce Skubala.

It is He alone that saves us by His Meritless Favor.

Now that you have made that clear, we are agreed.

Grip Docility · Jun 8, 2019

Oscarr said:
Now that you have made that clear, we are agreed.

Sweet!

def · Jun 8, 2019

Oscarr said:
You may need to consult a dictionary to know the meaning of the word "justified". In my dictionary it means to be declared "not guilty".

Ok, apply that meaning to Luke 7:29, "all the people that heard him, and the tax collectors, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John." We then have people declaring God not guilty. Blasphemy is an understatement.

I am sure if you grab a 15th century dictionary, you would not find such a meaning for justified.

def · Jun 8, 2019

bcbsr said:
Rom 4:5-8 the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."

Using a Reformers' Bible? KJV says 'his faith is counted for righteousness'. Other Bibles use the word 'reckoned', faith is recognised for righteousness.

In Romans 4, Paul is explaining the reason a holy and just God could 'justify' His action towards the sinner (the wicked, the ungodly).

What is God justifying? A gift promised in the New Covenant (Romans 5). And that gift is the Holy Spirit (see Romans 6,7,8).

Phil W · Jun 8, 2019

Oscarr said:
You are misquoting the Scripture; Here it is in context:
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

John is using an A-B, A-B, A-B style of writing...also used by Paul in Romans 8.
One verse concerning those walking in the light and the next concerning those who walk in darkness.

John is not talking about unregenerate people in the church. He is talking about "we" and "us". This means that he is talking about the believers in the church and including himself with them.

If they are walking in darkness, sin, they are the same old person.

Deceived people quote Scripture out of context and twist it to support their false view. True sanctification is progressive. Our obedience is not perfect, and as we walk in the Spirit, our obedience improves day by day, but we will never be entirely perfect until we are with the Lord in glory.

Was the sanctification of the temple's instruments a "progressive" exercise?
I think not.
It is written..."By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
Do you see any "progressive" actions there?

It is the blood of the Lamb that sanctifies us, right?
So how is it that that blood is merely trickled out slowly over time?
Christ's blood was applied to me, totally, when I was "immersed" into Him and His death. (Rom 6:3-7)

Phil W · Jun 8, 2019

def said:
Read the whole chapter.

Yes, it is a once off event, and that is the reason the author of Hebrews is warning:
" For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much worse punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done insult unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, says the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10: 26-31).

Amen!
Kinda makes us consider the phrase "fear of the Lord" while reading it.

Phil W · Jun 8, 2019

Oscarr said:
God's Word says that although we are justified by faith in Christ alone, we still have our flesh with us as a dead carcass which wars against our new heart and spirit.

Where?
I have read..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
My "flesh" was killed, buried, and raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:5-7)

Progressive sanctification is a battle in which we have to keep our flesh under subjection every day. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. That is why we are provided with 1 John 1:9 to keep short accounts with God concerning our failures.

Ever met someone from the "progressive sanctification" camp that ever got totally sanctified?

A person cannot say that he is justified and then everything is okay and that he does not have to fight the good fight in order to finish the race. We have to fight our own flesh, demons, false teachings, the world, unconverted people who try to drag us back into the world. It is a constant battle, but we have been supplied with the armour of God (Ephesians 6).

You are mostly right, as the battle for our souls never lets up.
But we "should" be in the drivers seat in every such battle.
We have been given everything we need, by God, to win all the battles.
Like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)

The Loaded Question (Philippians 2:13)

Works of my flesh -

Will save me

Are required in tandem with Christ to Save me

Are Skubala (Trash)

Aren’t the best, but I don’t fornicate

Make me better off than unbelievers

Are not as bad as a Serial Killer’s

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Disciple of Jesus .

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member