Sadducces : atheist priests

crossnote

Berean
Supporter
May 16, 2010
2,903
1,593
So. Cal.
✟250,151.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Satan and his myriad of followers didn't accidentally rebel; they knew they would lose and they knew what the consequences would be. They willingly surrendered an eternity in heaven.

Do you have Scriptural proof or any kind of proof of what you assert?

Isaiah 14:12-15 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Sounds like Lucifer was blinded by self rather than weighing the consequences.

His legion of henchmen didn't sound like they knew what they were getting into either...

Matthew 8:29 (KJV) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Satan and his myriad of followers didn't accidentally rebel; they knew they would lose and they knew what the consequences would be. They willingly surrendered an eternity in heaven.

Can you expand on that thought?
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Do you have Scriptural proof or any kind of proof of what you assert?

Isaiah 14:12-15 (KJV) How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Sounds like Lucifer was blinded by self rather than weighing the consequences.

His legion of henchmen didn't sound like they knew what they were getting into either...

Matthew 8:29 (KJV) And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Isaiah 14:12 ”How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in this verse refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14:4 “You will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous references to his human nature like Isaiah 14:16 “Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Starcomet
Upvote 0

awitch

Retired from Christian Forums
Mar 31, 2008
8,508
3,134
New Jersey, USA
✟19,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you have Scriptural proof or any kind of proof of what you assert?

Why would you even ask me when the conversation started off with how liberals always twist and misrepresent scripture?

But I don't need scripture because you claimed to have the spiritual gift of knowing what scripture really means and you're the one confirmed everything along the way.
 
Upvote 0

awitch

Retired from Christian Forums
Mar 31, 2008
8,508
3,134
New Jersey, USA
✟19,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Can you expand on that thought?

A countless number of angels who have intimate knowledge of God and factual, irrefutable proof of his existence and his qualities would never rebel thinking they could win. They must have known they would have been punished for it, too. Additionally, such a rebellion would require a massive amount of organization and planning so it could not have been a spontaneous thing. They lived in heaven and served God. Isn't that supposed to be the greatest honor? Yet they rebelled anyway. And they must have have some pretty convincing reasons for so many to participate knowing they would fail and be punished.
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
A countless number of angels who have intimate knowledge of God and factual, irrefutable proof of his existence and his qualities would never rebel thinking they could win. They must have known they would have been punished for it, too. Additionally, such a rebellion would require a massive amount of organization and planning so it could not have been a spontaneous thing. They lived in heaven and served God. Isn't that supposed to be the greatest honor? Yet they rebelled anyway. And they must have have some pretty convincing reasons for so many to participate knowing they would fail and be punished.

Or perhaps it is a myth developed to explain why humans experience suffering and pain and temptation seemingly with no rational source. These malevolent are the cause. However, when myths are examined closely, as you just did, they usually fall apart.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Starcomet
Upvote 0

awitch

Retired from Christian Forums
Mar 31, 2008
8,508
3,134
New Jersey, USA
✟19,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Or perhaps it is a myth developed to explain why humans experience suffering and pain and temptation seemingly with no rational source. These malevolent are the cause. However, when myths are examined closely, as you just did, they usually fall apart.

That's my actual stance. It's mythology like any other religion's story (including my own). And there's nothing wrong with that; humans are story tellers. Good people use demons to explain why bad things happen and bad people use demons as an excuse for their bad actions.

Hell comforts people because they believe justice will inevitably catch up with bad people even if they escape it in this lifetime. And at the time, the concept of hell was probably a decent deterrent for bad behavior when they didn't have the type of law enforcement and forensics and court systems that we do today.

As a myth, it sort of makes sense. Personally, I doubt there's an afterlife, but if there is, all I need to know is that things will work out the way they are supposed to and I won't pretend to know what that is.
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: JackRT
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
That's my actual stance. It's mythology like any other religion's story (including my own). And there's nothing wrong with that; humans are story tellers. Good people use demons to explain why bad things happen and bad people use demons as an excuse for their bad actions.

Hell comforts people because they believe justice will inevitably catch up with bad people even if they escape it in this lifetime. And at the time, the concept of hell was probably a decent deterrent for bad behavior when they didn't have the type of law enforcement and forensics and court systems that we do today.

As a myth, it sort of makes sense. Personally, I doubt there's an afterlife, but if there is, all I need to know is that things will work out the way they are supposed to and I won't pretend to know what that is.

In the first few decades of the last century a great deal of research went into trying to understand oral traditions while they were still around to study. This research focused on societies which were largely illiterate. This study was greatly assisted by the use of newly invented sound recording machines. The researchers discovered that the storytellers work from a 'framework' but tailor the narrative to suit the needs and moods of the audience at the time. A story is never told the same way twice but the framework itself remains intact. Once such a story is committed to print it becomes locked in place for all time. Moreover once that has happened it becomes virtually impossible to discern what is framework and what is the story teller's own variation on the theme. This is what has happened in both the Jewish and Christian scriptures. What we are reading are very human documents.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: awitch
Upvote 0

awitch

Retired from Christian Forums
Mar 31, 2008
8,508
3,134
New Jersey, USA
✟19,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
In the first few decades of the last century a great deal of research went into trying to understand oral traditions while they were still around to study. This research focused on societies which were largely illiterate. This study was greatly assisted by the use of newly invented sound recording machines. The researchers discovered that the storytellers work from a 'framework' but tailor the narrative to suit the needs and moods of the audience at the time. A story is never told the same way twice but the framework itself remains intact. Once such a story is committed to print it becomes locked in place for all time. Moreover once that has happened it becomes virtually impossible to discern what is framework and what is the story teller's own variation on the theme. This is what has happened in both the Jewish and Christian scriptures. What we are reading are very human documents.

Those scriptures and myths (including my own) were written in a time and place and culture that is long lost to today's world. The world is a dynamic place that's not easy to understand. Life can be hard, so I suppose subscribing to a religion that is very black and white can be appealing. "This is how it is anyone who thinks otherwise must be wrong and is probably evil" means you don't have to worry about uncertainty and invest the time in understanding the way the world works.
 
Upvote 0

JackRT

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Oct 17, 2015
15,722
16,445
80
small town Ontario, Canada
✟767,295.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married
Those scriptures and myths (including my own) were written in a time and place and culture that is long lost to today's world. The world is a dynamic place that's not easy to understand. Life can be hard, so I suppose subscribing to a religion that is very black and white can be appealing. "This is how it is anyone who thinks otherwise must be wrong and is probably evil" means you don't have to worry about uncertainty and invest the time in understanding the way the world works.

I don't think that it is entirely lost. If we wanted to study the culture of Old Testament times, it can still be found largely intact in the Muslim hill tribes of Afghanistan and a few other nations. Religious belief may be different but the tribal/cultural norms are the same.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

awitch

Retired from Christian Forums
Mar 31, 2008
8,508
3,134
New Jersey, USA
✟19,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I don't think that it is entirely lost. If we wanted to study the culture of Old Testament times, it can still be found largely intact in the Muslim hill tribes of Afghanistan and a few other nations. Religious belief may be different but the tribal/cultural norms are the same.

Fair enough.
I'm thinking the average American isn't going to have a good grasp on Middle Eastern life 2000 years ago. We barely have a grasp on American life in the last decade.
 
Upvote 0

Tayla

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Sep 30, 2017
1,694
801
USA
✟147,315.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Were the priests of Jesus times: Sadducces atheists because they didn’t believe in the resurrection or in angels or spiritual or the supernatural?
Maybe they were pantheists? I wonder if pantheists should be considered as atheists? Materialist/physicalist atheists are definitely not pantheists; they would never use the word "divine" for the universe.
 
Upvote 0

crossnote

Berean
Supporter
May 16, 2010
2,903
1,593
So. Cal.
✟250,151.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Isaiah 14:12 ”How you have fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!” There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in this verse refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. I think that this misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14:4 “You will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous references to his human nature like Isaiah 14:16 “Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil.
Thanks for your opinion but I respectfully disagree as when it comes to Jewish prophecy, context can change subject matter in the middle of a sentence as well as the fact that often a single prophecy can have a double fulfillment. Isa 7:14 is a good example.
 
Upvote 0

crossnote

Berean
Supporter
May 16, 2010
2,903
1,593
So. Cal.
✟250,151.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Why would you even ask me when the conversation started off with how liberals always twist and misrepresent scripture?
yes and through your long line of questioning, the discussion morphed into the topic of angels.
But I don't need scripture because you claimed to have the spiritual gift of knowing what scripture really means and you're the one confirmed everything along the way.
You don't need Scripture because of what I allegedly claim? If that's the case you are setting yourself up for further deception...until you learn that Scripture has the answers to the spiritual world.
I never said I knew all of Scripture but I was only trying to help with what I knew. Now I know better about your motives. Maybe Mr RT can lead you, Good bye for now.

Hint, follow Jesus, not man, if you can.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(Joh 10:27)
 
Upvote 0

awitch

Retired from Christian Forums
Mar 31, 2008
8,508
3,134
New Jersey, USA
✟19,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
You don't need Scripture because of what I allegedly claim?

I don't have the spiritual gift like you do.

If that's the case you are setting yourself up for further deception...until you learn that Scripture has the answers to the spiritual world.

Maybe it has some.

Hint, follow Jesus, not man, if you can.

I believe Jesus was a man (at best).
I carve my own path.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I meant Christian liberals who are like wolves in sheepskin and are hard to spot.

You can usually find us reading the Bible, worshiping Christ, and participating in the Sacraments. We're pretty diabolical that way.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
I would liken them to modern day theological liberals instead..perhaps worse than an atheist.

They were more like conservatives, actually. Pharisees religion really started during the Babylonian Exile, and their religion is reflected more in the later Prophets like Daniel and in intertestamental/deuterocanonical Jewish literature.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jane_the_Bane
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,474
18,454
Orlando, Florida
✟1,249,090.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
US-Democrat
Those scriptures and myths (including my own) were written in a time and place and culture that is long lost to today's world. The world is a dynamic place that's not easy to understand. Life can be hard, so I suppose subscribing to a religion that is very black and white can be appealing. "This is how it is anyone who thinks otherwise must be wrong and is probably evil" means you don't have to worry about uncertainty and invest the time in understanding the way the world works.

Low openness to experience is something that psychologists like Carl Rogers associated with immaturity, and in my experience that does play out in the differences we see in American religion. Many people in the US that are perceived as being very religious (and that are involved in the type of Christian religion expressed on these forums) have tribalistic attitudes and they find existential security through belonging to a group and adhering to that group's expectations so that they are not shunned or disciplined.
 
Upvote 0