Questions regarding baptism

Butch5 said:

Not at all. If you're correct and can show me a logical argument for your position you can convince me. But it has to be a logical argument and it has to incorporate the entirety of Scripture.

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Hi Butch5,

Would you prefer to have our debate via conversation (on this forum) or email vs. posts here...so as to not overtake this thread? Or should we start another one? I want to be respectful of the OP and not hijack this thread anymore than we already have. LOL!

Kris Jordan said:

Hi Albion,

According to Scripture, baptism is an act of obedience to Jesus on the part of the believer who has already been saved. It is not a "vehicle of God's grace."
It isMo Christian chHr The only vehicle of God's grace is Jesus who paid the price for our sin and provides the way to be reconciled to God through faith.

Water baptism is a symbolic, outward expression of the transformation that has already occurred inside a person when they passed from spiritual death to life, having trusted Jesus for their forgiveness and salvation in full. Therefore, baptism is a public testimony that demonstrates having died to our life of sin (going down into the water) and being raised to new life in Christ (coming up out of the water). It's really that simple.

Furthermore, there is only one way to be saved according to the bible - not two ways or a combination of ways. We are saved by God's grace when we place our faith in the finished work of Jesus. Anything in addition to that is false and renders Jesus' sacrifice insufficient to save us.

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Hi, Kris.

I am aware of what Baptists teach about it, yes.

However, I also see the presumptions and guesses that underlie the Baptistic view, which is one reason why I side with the historic churches that most Christians belong to.

Kris Jordan said:

Hi Butch5,

Would you prefer to have our debate via conversation (on this forum) or email vs. posts here...so as to not overtake this thread? Or should we start another one? I want to be respectful of the OP and not hijack this thread anymore than we already have. LOL!

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Kris, I'd prefer on the forum so others can follow along. However, of you're more comfortable doing it through email that's fine too. Om fone either way. We can start a new thread if you like too. Let me know what's the best for you.

Butch5 said:

Sure! we can do that. The passage that is probably the strongest is Mark 16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(Mk. 16:15-16 KJV)

As I've stated, there is a grammatical argument here that there no way around. "Believes" and "is baptized" are both in the present tense. "shall be saved" is future tense. The present always comes before the future.

You've posted a lot of passages. Can you post one that says a person is saved by faith alone?

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Hi Butch5,

Sorry, I've been off the grid for a few days. I'm fine keeping our discussion here. I will do my best to reply to your posts in a "timely fashion," but I'm going to be off the grid quite a bit over the next 10+ days, so please bear with me if it takes me a while to respond to posts.

Before we begin, (and humor me on this), but I just want to make sure we both understand "salvation" the same before we begin. So would you agree that salvation (i.e., being saved, born-again, regenerated, justified, etc.) means that we have been forgiven for all of our sins (past-present-future), we have received Jesus' righteousness in exchange for our unrighteousness, we have received a new Christ-like nature, and we will go to heaven when we die? In other words, we have been saved and rescued/redeemed from the penalty our sin deserves, which is eternal separation from God in hell (and ultimately the Lake of Fire).

If your understanding or definition is different, please describe how. And again, this is not an exhaustive description but I'm trying to deal with the basics of it without getting too technical to make sure we are both singing off the same song sheet before we begin delving into it further. Thanks!

Kris Jordan said:

Hi Butch5,

Sorry, I've been off the grid for a few days. I'm fine keeping our discussion here. I will do my best to reply to your posts in a "timely fashion," but I'm going to be off the grid quite a bit over the next 10+ days, so please bear with me if it takes me a while to respond to posts.

Before we begin, (and humor me on this), but I just want to make sure we both understand "salvation" the same before we begin. So would you agree that salvation (i.e., being saved, born-again, regenerated, justified, etc.) means that we have been forgiven for all of our sins (past-present-future), we have received Jesus' righteousness in exchange for our unrighteousness, we have received a new Christ-like nature, and we will go to heaven when we die? In other words, we have been saved and rescued/redeemed from the penalty our sin deserves, which is eternal separation from God in hell (and ultimately the Lake of Fire).

If your understanding or definition is different, please describe how. And again, this is not an exhaustive description but I'm trying to deal with the basics of it without getting too technical to make sure we are both singing off the same song sheet before we begin delving into it further. Thanks!

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Hi Kris,

No problem, take your time. I applaud you for wanting to define the terms before hand. I try to get Christians to do that, but they often balk at it. To answer your question, there was time when I would have answered yes to your description of salvation. However, years of study have lead me away from that. I just don't find it in Scripture. I see salvation as an ongoing process. The Scriptures use, past, present, and future tenses whey speaking of salvation. I see salvation ultimately at the resurrection since we are saved from death. Regarding sins, I believe Christians are forgiven their past sins when they are baptized. Future sins are not pre-forgiven. John tells his readers,

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 Jn. 1:9 KJV)

There'd be no need if they were already forgiven.

I don't believe we've exchanged Jesus' righteousness for our unrighteousness. I don't find that anywhere in Scripture. Jesus told His disciples,

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:20 KJV)

I don't believe we have received a new Christ like nature. Again, I don't see that in Scripture. Christ was without sin. Christians sin.

No, I don't believe we will go to Heaven when we die. Again, I don't see that in Scripture. What I find is that God will restore the earth, make it new.

No, I don't believe we have been rescued from the penalty of our sins. The wages of sin is death. Christians die as well as the wicked. Hell in the Scriptures is the grave, so no, Christians haven't been saved from that. However, they will be saved from the lake of fire. In reading this last line it seems to me that you're implying that Christians are saved from eternal conscious torment. If that's the case I can say that I don't hold to the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment either.

I seems we differ on quite few doctrines. However, remember in an earlier post I said that the modern church has a lot of erroneous teachings. There was a time when I held to the same doctrines that you listed above. I held to those doctrines back when I used to let my church teach me what the Bible said and when I used to read commentaries. I was told, the pastor studies 4 hours a day. I thought, well he must surely know what he's teaching then. However, when you look at all of the different denominations and think, all of these guys are studying and yet they don't believe the same things, it becomes obvious that study time alone doesn't mean much. If you study what is wrong for hours on end, you'll still be wrong. Ultimately what got me was the contradictory teachings from the same Bible. The main one being OSAS vs. NOSAS. One church teaches that you can't loose salvation and one teaches that you can, both claiming this from a book they claim is without error. Logic dictates that two opposing concepts cannot both be true at the same time. That meant that either one of the church was wrong or the Bible had errors. I accepted the idea that the Bible (in it's original form) was without error. That meant one of the churches was wrong. So, I set out to find out what the truth was. That journey lead me to put all of my beliefs on the table and compare everything to Scripture. What could be proved I kept, what couldn't be, I rejected. a real eye opener was going all the way back to the earliest Christians and seeing what they taught. It shows just how far away from the Christian faith the modern church and Christianity has gotten. Modern Christianity is so far from the faith taught by Jesus and the apostles it's really sad.

However, having said all of that, I don't believe it will present an issue with discussing baptism. It may help you understand where I'm coming from though.

BlessedVegan said:

if I have accepted Jesus as my savior, is baptism required?

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No, as long as you are intending to get baptized as soon as feasible. I base this on Catholic teaching which is different than Protestant.

BlessedVegan said:

in the process of joining a congregation and would be baptized after becoming a member.

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The Bible says nothing about joining a congregation except joining the Church via being baptized. The teaching that you have to join a congregation is man-made. Shame on those who teach it and demand it.

BlessedVegan said:

I may need to put membership on hold. Which would delay baptism.

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You should be able to be baptized as soon as you accept Christ in faith -- that is the only requirement. Churches should not demand you join their church before getting baptized. (They should not have membership at all.)

BlessedVegan said:

Which would delay baptism. If I die would I go to Hell?

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According to Catholic teaching, if you are in the process of getting baptized (which for them takes years), you will not go to hell if you die before baptism. But I doubt there should be any concern about going to hell as long as you have accepted Jesus as Savior.

I think baptism is like communion (Eucharist): there is a mystical union with Christ.

BlessedVegan said:

are there pastors who will baptize you without you having a relationship with their church? Is this a legitimate thing to do?

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Ask around, maybe there are some.

According to the Bible and the early church, you should be allowed to be baptized as soon as you accept Christ as Savior.

BlessedVegan said:

was never Baptized as a child. I’ve been a believer for a long time, I just never sought out church membership and baptism. Now That my issues may delayed my baptism, I’m worried.

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Don't worry. Get baptized when you can. The teaching that you should worry if you are not baptized yet is simply untrue.

jesus316 said:

No, as long as you are intending to get baptized as soon as feasible. I base this on Catholic teaching which is different than Protestant.

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I cannot imagine a Protestant--of any of the well-known denomination anyway--who would disagree about the importance of being baptized in this situation.

David Cabrera said:

Even Lutherans and Anglicans who believe in faith alone believe baptism saves. It is because it is God's grace on us not any work.

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No, they don't. Unless, that is, you are referring to the special case of an infant who dies shortly after being baptized, in which case it is believed that they are in a state of grace. However, being baptized does not in itself guarantee salvation.

Albion said:

I cannot imagine a Protestant--of any of the well-known denomination anyway--who would disagree about the importance of being baptized in this situation.

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Important yes, essential no. Unless the person refuses to be baptism because they refuse to obey Jesus' commands. Once they know what Jesus expects, they should work towards doing it. But it's not urgent like it is to get a bad appendix removed.

jesus316 said:

Important yes, essential no. Unless the person refuses to be baptism because they refuse to obey Jesus' commands. Once they know what Jesus expects, they should work towards doing it. But it's not urgent like it is to get a bad appendix removed.

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Well, yes it is. It is not, however, the case that salvation is always impossible for an unbaptized person, but there we are speaking of rare exceptions, not something that is normal.

Butch5 said:

Hi Kris,

No problem, take your time. I applaud you for wanting to define the terms before hand. I try to get Christians to do that, but they often balk at it. To answer your question, there was time when I would have answered yes to your description of salvation. However, years of study have lead me away from that. I just don't find it in Scripture. I see salvation as an ongoing process. The Scriptures use, past, present, and future tenses whey speaking of salvation. I see salvation ultimately at the resurrection since we are saved from death. Regarding sins, I believe Christians are forgiven their past sins when they are baptized. Future sins are not pre-forgiven. John tells his readers,

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 Jn. 1:9 KJV)

There'd be no need if they were already forgiven.

I don't believe we've exchanged Jesus' righteousness for our unrighteousness. I don't find that anywhere in Scripture. Jesus told His disciples,

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:20 KJV)

I don't believe we have received a new Christ like nature. Again, I don't see that in Scripture. Christ was without sin. Christians sin.

No, I don't believe we will go to Heaven when we die. Again, I don't see that in Scripture. What I find is that God will restore the earth, make it new.

No, I don't believe we have been rescued from the penalty of our sins. The wages of sin is death. Christians die as well as the wicked. Hell in the Scriptures is the grave, so no, Christians haven't been saved from that. However, they will be saved from the lake of fire. In reading this last line it seems to me that you're implying that Christians are saved from eternal conscious torment. If that's the case I can say that I don't hold to the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment either.

I seems we differ on quite few doctrines. However, remember in an earlier post I said that the modern church has a lot of erroneous teachings. There was a time when I held to the same doctrines that you listed above. I held to those doctrines back when I used to let my church teach me what the Bible said and when I used to read commentaries. I was told, the pastor studies 4 hours a day. I thought, well he must surely know what he's teaching then. However, when you look at all of the different denominations and think, all of these guys are studying and yet they don't believe the same things, it becomes obvious that study time alone doesn't mean much. If you study what is wrong for hours on end, you'll still be wrong. Ultimately what got me was the contradictory teachings from the same Bible. The main one being OSAS vs. NOSAS. One church teaches that you can't loose salvation and one teaches that you can, both claiming this from a book they claim is without error. Logic dictates that two opposing concepts cannot both be true at the same time. That meant that either one of the church was wrong or the Bible had errors. I accepted the idea that the Bible (in it's original form) was without error. That meant one of the churches was wrong. So, I set out to find out what the truth was. That journey lead me to put all of my beliefs on the table and compare everything to Scripture. What could be proved I kept, what couldn't be, I rejected. a real eye opener was going all the way back to the earliest Christians and seeing what they taught. It shows just how far away from the Christian faith the modern church and Christianity has gotten. Modern Christianity is so far from the faith taught by Jesus and the apostles it's really sad.

However, having said all of that, I don't believe it will present an issue with discussing baptism. It may help you understand where I'm coming from though.

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Hi Butch5,

Okay, wow -- that was a lot to take in, lol -- so I'm glad I asked.

Yes, we definitely disagree on much more than I thought, so can you just summarize for me what you define "salvation" as, as it relates to our discussion on baptism, and we can go from there? In other words, what do you believe we are actually saved from specifically that the act of baptism (according to your beliefs) completes, signifies, accomplishes, etc.?

Regarding us receiving the righteousness of Jesus in exchange for our own unrighteousness, the Bible tells us clearly in Romans 3:20-26 -- "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - He did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

Oh, and one last comment on something you said about the "modern church" and differing doctrines. You are correct that some biblically-sound Christian denominations disagree on certain doctrines, however, those disagreements are on non-essential doctrines, not essential ones. Christian denominations can have differing views on non-essential things like whether the rapture will occur before, during or after the Tribulation, or whether a person is OSAS or not, and still be biblically sound denominations because there are some things that the Bible is not crystal clear about and it doesn't affect the salvation of one's soul. However, there cannot be differences on the essentials of the Christian faith among denominations because those are what distinguish a Christian denomination from a cult, etc. So if a "denomination" declares that Jesus isn't the Son of God but is the spirit brother of Satan, or if they teach that we must work our way to heaven on our own merits, then they are a cult at best. So don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Anyway, thank you for your grace in giving me time to respond to our upcoming debate on baptism. I want to be thorough in my answers and that requires time on my part...so being away from the computer a lot over the next 10+ days will slow down that "back and forth" process. But I will respond when I can.

Kris Jordan said:

Hi Butch5,

Okay, wow -- that was a lot to take in, lol -- so I'm glad I asked.

Yes, we definitely disagree on much more than I thought, so can you just summarize for me what you define "salvation" as, as it relates to our discussion on baptism, and we can go from there? In other words, what do you believe we are actually saved from specifically that the act of baptism (according to your beliefs) completes, signifies, accomplishes, etc.?

Regarding us receiving the righteousness of Jesus in exchange for our own unrighteousness, the Bible tells us clearly in Romans 3:20-26 -- "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - He did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

Oh, and one last comment on something you said about the "modern church" and differing doctrines. You are correct that some biblically-sound Christian denominations disagree on certain doctrines, however, those disagreements are on non-essential doctrines, not essential ones. Christian denominations can have differing views on non-essential things like whether the rapture will occur before, during or after the Tribulation, or whether a person is OSAS or not, and still be biblically sound denominations because there are some things that the Bible is not crystal clear about and it doesn't affect the salvation of one's soul. However, there cannot be differences on the essentials of the Christian faith among denominations because those are what distinguish a Christian denomination from a cult, etc. So if a "denomination" declares that Jesus isn't the Son of God but is the spirit brother of Satan, or if they teach that we must work our way to heaven on our own merits, then they are a cult at best. So don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Anyway, thank you for your grace in giving me time to respond to our upcoming debate on baptism. I want to be thorough in my answers and that requires time on my part...so being away from the computer a lot over the next 10+ days will slow down that "back and forth" process. But I will respond when I can.

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Hi Kris,

I can summarize it for you. Salvation as I understand it is a process that begins when one puts their faith in Christ and continues to the point of the resurrection. It requires, what David Bercot calls, an obedient, love, faith relationship with God. It requires that one be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. It requires that one be obedient to the commands of Christ. It requires that one repent of their sins. Baptism is an appeal to God for the forgiveness of our past sins. It's the mechanism by which we enter into the new covenant. Now, there are always those who are going to seek the exception rather than the rule and claim that one can be saved apart from baptism. I'll grant that God can save whoever He chooses to save. He can save an unbeliever if He wants to. However, He has told us under what conditions He will save people and we have no authority to tell people any other way than that which God has stated. He told the apostle to go and make disciples, teaching and baptizing them.

Regarding Romans 3:20-26, if you read that carefully you'll note that nowhere in that passage does it say we are given Christ's righteousness. It says we are declare righteous through faith in Christ. Take note to the passages that you've been given to support different doctrines, quite often you'll find that they don't actually say what is claimed. Rather pastors and theologians have read those ideas into the passage. Also take note that that passage is talking about the "Law". It's the Mosaic Law to be precise. Paul isn't talking about people doing works in general. He's talking about those who insisted that it was necessary to keep the Mosaic Law in addition to faith in Christ. This is the reason I mentioned the importance of studying the historical setting in which the Bible was written.

Regarding the paragraph on the "Modern Church", I would ask you, who decides what is essential? I would also ask you, how is a church Biblically sound if they're teaching erroneous doctrines. You see, you mentioned, "Biblically sound churches" differing on non essentials. That's not what I'm talking about. The modern church differs drastically from the one that was taught by Jesus and the apostles. If today's church is drastically different from the one taught by Jesus and the apostles, how can it be Biblically sound? Many of the major Christian doctrines of today were not held by the church that was taught by Jesus and the apostles. If they weren't held by those who were taught by Jesus and the apostles, then someone made them up along the way. So again, my question would be, how is today's church Biblically sound? What we have to remember is that just because something is orthodox that doesn't mean it's correct, it's just what the majority holds to. Keep in mind that at one time purgatory and praying to the saints were orthodox.

One of the problems I see is that somethings don't seem to change. Christians are still kept in line by fear. They're told not stray outside of the lines or there will be consequences. They may be deemed a heretic. They may be outcasts by those who are orthodox. We can see this kind of thinking all the way back in the 5th century with the Athanasian Creed. It says that anyone who doesn't believe what is written in the Creed cannot be saved. Yet, the Creed contains blatant errors and has strayed from the original faith. This keeps many Christians from challenging the erroneous teaching of the churches.

You're welcome and thank you for taking the time. It's refreshing to see someone who's seriously willing to look at the subject.

BlessedVegan said:

I realize there may not be a simple answer to these questions.

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There is a simple answer, and you know it. Unless Jesus lied, the thief on the cross was with Christ without water baptism.

BlessedVegan said:

1-if I have accepted Jesus as my savior, is baptism required?

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Required? No. Jesus does say that, "If you love Me you will keep My commandments.", so the question then becomes, do you love Jesus, or "Do you draw near with your lips while your heart is far away?" "Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, when you do not do as I say." The question is, is someone who refuses to obey a Christian regardless of their professed belief and actions, or do the habit and way of life responses prove what you really do love?

Answer: You will know them by their fruits. Hearing and doing, as a habit and way of life proves your Christianity. The works don't save, but if you are you will seek to figure out and do His will. If you really are a Christian and you do refuse to obey God, then this applies, "1Co 11:29 For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world." In other words, if you are a real Christian, like the man delivered over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh in chapter 5 (Physical death), or a sin unto death as is described in other passages, "I am not saying that you should pray for a man sinning unto death ..."

And the Hebrews passage about those believing they are God's children, who do not see His reproof being bastards... all tell us that, if you are a real Christian, refusing to judge yourself and be self-correcting has definite consequences, weakness, sickness and "sleeping" physical death but not losing salvation. Getting judged now so that we do not have to be judged with the world... [/QUOTE]

BlessedVegan said:

I have not been baptized, and am in the process of joining a congregation and would be baptized after becoming a member. For reasons too complicated to bring up here (regarding my mental health) I may need to put membership on hold. Which would delay baptism. If I die would I go to Hell?

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So where in scripture does it say that you have to wait for a specific group to baptize you with specific membership requirements? Special mental health requirements for salvation/baptism? Sorry, not aware of anything other than a profession and someone willing to publicly hear your profession and immerse you. (Yes, baptidzo means to immerse.) Anything else would be teaching as doctrines of God, the traditions or precepts of men. Seeking to obey God would result in one course of action. Seeking to follow the traditions of men, results in another. If a church makes other requirements beyond what scripture says, find another church.

BlessedVegan said:

2-if due to my issues I cannot join and get baptized soon, and baptism is required for salvation, are there pastors who will baptize you without you having a relationship with their church? Is this a legitimate thing to do?

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First, if ANY person is a Christian/Disciple (They are the exact same thing "The Disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.") then they are commanded to "Make disciples, baptize disciples, and teach disciples to obey ALL that He has commanded them." as it says at the end of Matthew. If you find a Christian unwilling to baptize you FOR ANY REASON other than a lack of a proper profession of faith, then I recommend you seek out a group of real Christians who actually seek to figure out and do as God commands them ALL to be doing. By the way, as a Christian, you should be doing all of those things yourself as well.

BlessedVegan said:

I’m 40, was never Baptized as a child. I’ve been a believer for a long time, I just never sought out church membership and baptism. Now That my issues may delayed my baptism, I’m worried.

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Sorry, according to scripture, church membership occurs upon belief, when you are sealed with the Holy Spirit with a view to your future inheritance. That's your church membership in the eyes of God. Like I said, if anyone is looking for more, seek out a group of real Christians who aren't going to add a bunch of additional conditions, restrictions, time constraints ... beyond what scripture commands.

EmethAlethia said:

There is a simple answer, and you know it. Unless Jesus lied, the thief on the cross was with Christ without water baptism.

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The problem there, however, is that there is only one Good Thief on the cross.

And now for the rest of humanity...what????????

BlessedVegan said:

1-if I have accepted Jesus as my savior, is baptism required? I have not been baptized, and am in the process of joining a congregation and would be baptized after becoming a member. For reasons too complicated to bring up here (regarding my mental health) I may need to put membership on hold. Which would delay baptism. If I die would I go to Hell?

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One more thing. Ask someone who says that salvation cannot be completed without water baptism if they would ever share the gospel without also talking about the requirement of water baptism.

Every single time you will get the most emphatic, NO, NEVER, THAT WOULD ONLY BE A PART OF THE GOSPEL. THERE IS NO SALVATION WITHOUT IT!" that you will ever get.

Next I ask, how many times in the N.T. is the gospel shared with no mention of water or baptism ... at all. Turns out that about 90% of the discussions on salvation never mention baptism at all.

No, don't trust me. Start reading. You have many passages that just say "Believe on Him who God sent." Some say, "Repent and believe." But the vast majority say nothing about baptism at all. Odd if that is the reality of the gospel.

One of the big ways to determine false doctrine is that things just don't make sense. If the gospel is faith, plus repentance, plus water baptism, then no one will ever leave those things out in a discussion on salvation in scripture. The FACT that it is left out in most cases tells us that the view of those writing scripture, and of Jesus HImself, is not the same as the views of those sharing the faith plus baptism gospel.

Commanded? Absolutely. Required to be saved? Nope. Or the thief on the cross would never have made it to heaven. Baptism is an outward profession of the saving faith you already have. Yes, "If you love Me you will keep My commandments." So yes, if you do, you will get baptized